Here's the thing about the game design. Full BAB pretty much guarantees a hit against everybody. My Warder and Warlord hit nearly all enemies on a 2-5 or better. 3/4 BAB is not significantly worse. It's designed to hit normal AC most of the time. So like a 7 or an 8 on the die. And with abilities that allow me to hit touch or flatfooted, it just gets better. The Stalker is firmly in Tier 3 territory.
I know how it works. I also know 3/4 gets kind of iffy if you go TWF and especially if you don't have a way to bring up your attack. Those touch attacks make a large difference.
Ki points are the class feature with the biggest variables in play.
Which is part of why I asked. I was thinking about asking the suggestions forum some time ago about an alternative way to use the ki pool so that you had a starting pool each fight instead of a mass you burn over the day and what was fair some time ago. Base it off wisdom and/or make it scaling and it'll grow over time and it won't be as large of a variable, and in combat there are a few ways to get ki back if its a lengthier one(in particular, the stalker has ki vampire as a class feature.) The downside is that at the start you'll only do one or two cool tricks per encounter, but on the upside its easier to control and depend upon and less burst-like.
The baseline for the stalker is very high, so he's comparable to the magus, but doesn't crash as hard when he's expended his limited resource.
That's one of the things I love about martial adepts. That lack of crash. Magus is more bursty I think though. Level 10 magus is capable of continually doing 4 D6+6 attacks + 10D6 if even one of them lands, almost every round that he can make a full attack. With 62k suggested WBL, he can buy a lot of pearls of power to fuel himself. On the other hand they are semi monotonous because that's his MO and he's not going to be performing a lot of tricks outside of that(though he is a caster and will have plenty). Edit: Then Yuengling Dragon posted a large chunk of text stating his experience. I feel validated!
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Hey Chris, quick note here, the combat feat Primal Power should probably have the "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn" line like Power Attack does. As written the feat specifies when the temporary hit points end, but not when you can choose to take the attack roll penalty or when it expires.
I'm going to straight up say I despise the recovery method of the stalker.
I don't get too many ki points as is (fine honestly) but it's my only way to refresh multiple maneuvers in combat. This would be okay if I could do something other than stand there and go "not in the face! not in the face!" or if I didn't have much use for my ki points already. But I have lots and lots of incentive to use them on other things.
May hap allow a single attack while doing this and if it succeeds not lose the ki point? It allows the stalker to continue doing what he's doing without slowing down the pace too much. This brings him much better in line with the thinking behind warlord and warder who both remain quite active while recovering. The Stalker in turn gets to stand there and do nothing.
Alternatively perhaps allow him free attacks on those who miss him while recovering? I think more can be done with it. As is it's just very boring compared to the other two and isn't really made up for.
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Alternatively perhaps allow him free attacks on those who miss him while recovering? I think more can be done with it. As is it's just very boring compared to the other two and isn't really made up for.
Except for by the fact that he's capable of way out-damaging the other initiators during all the rounds up to that point. He can position himself ideally to take AoO's on enemies, boosts his AC automatically while recovering, and maybe even pop one of those sweet Stalker counters like Poison Blood. If he took Monastic Weapon Training and is chilling there with a kusari-gama, you might not even notice that he didn't full attack this round.
Alternatively perhaps allow him free attacks on those who miss him while recovering? I think more can be done with it. As is it's just very boring compared to the other two and isn't really made up for.Except for by the fact that he's capable of way out-damaging the other initiators during all the rounds up to that point. He can position himself ideally to take AoO's on enemies, boosts his AC automatically while recovering, and maybe even pop one of those sweet Stalker counters like Poison Blood. If he took Monastic Weapon Training and is chilling there with a kusari-gama, you might not even notice that he didn't full attack this round.
Well outdamaging them is kind of his thing given his lack of full bab or solid support abilities and his theme as a kung fu murder ninja. It's merely a suggestion though. The point is I want him to be more active and doing his thing like the other initiators. Standing there contemplating the allegory of the cave is not only boring but not in line with the others. Also, poison blood is not good. Sorry. I'd rather have better maneuvers readied by that point.
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I've made a few alterations to the class for the upcoming release; specific during the recovery method. They'll get a dodge bonus to their AC to help them defend themselves and its not like they can't make AoO while recovering (or counters). I moved critical recovery down a lot earlier (12th) and there is a new capstone. So the class has 2 ways to recover ki (one is built in, critical recovery) and you can take ki vampirism. You can take the Extra Ki feat. You've got options there.
Saying that the stalker is not in line with the others is false. The warder doesn't do anything active either; he stands there like a stalker. He gets things that make him Good at His Job, the stalker has to stop his job for a moment. Warlord runs risks to recover his in a more active manner; he's the one not in line with the others.
-X
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Well outdamaging them is kind of his thing given his lack of full bab or solid support abilities and his theme as a kung fu murder ninja. It's merely a suggestion though. The point is I want him to be more active and doing his thing like the other initiators. Standing there contemplating the allegory of the cave is not only boring but not in line with the others. Also, poison blood is not good. Sorry. I'd rather have better maneuvers readied by that point.
Any counter will do, Poison Blood was just one off the top of my head. The Stalker has more damage-dealing counters than the other classes combined, allowing him to keep "doing his job" even while not actively attacking. The other classes also have options where they spend a full round action recovering maneuvers, so I don't see how it's "not in line" with them. If all your Stalker is doing is "contemplating the allegory of the cave" that is a failure of you as the player, not in the design of the class. It's also a class that heavily favors DEX, so if you grab Combat Reflexes and an appropriate weapon, you've got a good chance of out-damaging the other classes even without taking a full attack or Strike that turn.
Initiators in general are about balancing your selection of Boosts, Strikes, and Counters to maximize your effectiveness in combat. If all you do is stack up on big damage Strikes, it doesn't matter that you have to spend a full round to recover them because it's unlikely that you'll ever run out in a given combat. If you are using Boosts and Counters, taking a round to boost your AC, possibly initiate a counter and recharge is far from a waste, and will likely allow the other members of your party to actually do something. The Stalker is probably the most powerful of the 3 initiator classes presented by DS. It has numerous Swift and immediate actions that don't interfere and aren't interfered with by using his recovery, and boosting him any farther just isn't necessary, and would probably be a very bad thing for balance.JMHO
I've made a few alterations to the class for the upcoming release; specific during the recovery method. They'll get a dodge bonus to their AC to help them defend themselves and its not like they can't make AoO while recovering. I moved critical recovery down a lot earlier (12th) and there is a new capstone. So the class has 2 ways to recover ki (one is built in, critical recovery) and you can take ki vampirism. You can take the Extra Ki feat. You've got options there.
Saying that the stalker is not in line with the others is false. The warder doesn't do anything active either; he stands there like a stalker. He gets things that make him Good at His Job, the stalker has to stop his job for a moment. Warlord runs risks to recover his in a more active manner; he's the one not in line with the others.
-X
Not necessarily true.
The warder defends. He gets combat reflexes, more AoO's and even makes it harder for people to get by him. That's his schtick.
The warlord is a reckless bravo who inspires others through being awesome. He regains maneuvers not just by hitting a home run but by pointing at the part of the fence where he's going to do it. That's his shctick.
The stalker is a mystic murder ninja who has abilities that let him transmute his blood into highly pressurized acidic blood. He recovers his maneuvers by contemplating the idea of transmuting his blood into acid.
It's kind of disappointing to stop in the middle of combat and expend a resource (other two don't either) and do something that feels out of theme where the others do quite well at it.
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The Stalker's limited resource serves as a balancing point for the fact that while he's got it, he's substantially more deadly than his counterparts. When he's burned through it, he's only moderately more deadly. He's got access to a huge array of potent abilities, the option to stack up even more special abilities or grab as many bonus combat feats as a Ranger (potentially a lot more feats since Monastic Weapon Training gives him proficiency with all monk weapons which includes a wide array of exotic weapons), extra ways to restore ki, etc.
With feats like Lightning Swap which he has much easier access to than other classes, he can shift to something like the kusarigama or rope dart while recovering to expand his threatened area, or if you don't like taking the break at all, grab the Lightning Recovery feat a couple times and you'll probably never need to spend a ki point on anything other than Deadly Strikes and Stalker Arts.
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Stalkers also get the most known and readied maneuvers on top of all of what Ssalarn just pointed out. They may not even need to recover maneuvers mid-fight...
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The Stalker's limited resource serves as a balancing point for the fact that while he's got it, he's substantially more deadly than his counterparts. When he's burned through it, he's only moderately more deadly. He's got access to a huge array of potent abilities, the option to stack up even more special abilities or grab as many bonus combat feats as a Ranger (potentially a lot more feats since Monastic Weapon Training gives him proficiency with all monk weapons which includes a wide array of exotic weapons), extra ways to restore ki, etc.
With feats like Lightning Swap which he has much easier access to than other classes, he can shift to something like the kusarigama or rope dart while recovering to expand his threatened area, or if you don't like taking the break at all, grab the Lightning Recovery feat a couple times and you'll probably never need to spend a ki point on anything other than Deadly Strikes and Stalker Arts.
You see the ki expenditure doesn't necessarily bother me.
It's that plus the combination of inactivity.
For a class that's all about offense to suddenly stop being offensive is jarring and not fun. If I wanted that I can play a warder. And probably still manage to do all the damage I want to do.
Thank you for your input, TarkXT. I make notes of what people are saying and I'll add to my notes on stalker feedback. :)
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Stalkers also get the most known and readied maneuvers on top of all of what Ssalarn just pointed out. They may not even need to recover maneuvers mid-fight...
-X
Only very slowly over time. And even then only about three more over the warlord only one more of which he can ready. And these will get expended very very quickly if I'm boosting, countering, and striking every round I can manage.
In any case I do thank you for taking the feedback and actually responding. I don't doubt that it will only get better even if this particular irritant to me is left in the final product. :)
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Stalkers also get the most known and readied maneuvers on top of all of what Ssalarn just pointed out. They may not even need to recover maneuvers mid-fight...
-X
Only very slowly over time. And even then only about three more over the warlord only one more of which he can ready. And these will get expended very very quickly if I'm boosting, countering, and striking every round I can manage.
They do start off with more right off the bat, and the other classes only catch up in like 4 levels out of 20. The average encounter lasts 3-5 rounds, meaning that from 5th level on you have about two maneuvers a round available to you. Combined with Deadly Strikes which is as powerful as any maneuver, more powerful in many instances, you have an immense pool of resources available to you. You should only need to actually slow down and burn a point to recover in the most dire instances, and a well-built (or even not particularly well-built) Stalker should still have more options than most other martial characters to contribute during that round.
They do start off with more right off the bat, and the other classes only catch up in like 4 levels out of 20. The average encounter lasts 3-5 rounds, meaning that from 5th level on you have about two maneuvers a round available to you. Combined with Deadly Strikes which is as powerful as any maneuver, more powerful in many instances, you have an immense pool of resources available to you. You should only need to actually slow down and burn a point to recover in the most dire instances, and a well-built (or even not particularly well-built) Stalker should still have more options than most other martial characters to contribute during that round.Stalkers also get the most known and readied maneuvers on top of all of what Ssalarn just pointed out. They may not even need to recover maneuvers mid-fight...
-X
Only very slowly over time. And even then only about three more over the warlord only one more of which he can ready. And these will get expended very very quickly if I'm boosting, countering, and striking every round I can manage.
Out of curiosity could you link me what stalker release you are using? I'm sensing an inconsistency here and I want to be sure it's not me.
Ah, for a minute I didn't think we were looking at the same classes.
Mainly because warlord and stalker are exact same in the first three levels. After that stalker knows more but readies less. After that it's sort of give or take with the stalker being no more than one above or two above in either category.
And really none of what you pointed out addresses the issue. The other two classes have lots of good options as well (oh Warleader why couldn't have you been on the cavalier) but more importantly I actually want to use their recovery options. Warder for when I want to play Gandalf in Mordor versus the Balrog and Warlord when I want to be so awesome I eat risk and poop morale bonuses.
Other than a fair boost to AC (which I can get through other means) there's nothing really encouraging me to use it. If nothing else you've just encouraged me to hate it more.
In any case we'll see how it all turns out as I may be in a minority on this anyway.
Right now I'm jsut going to take this here 6th level golden lion warlord with hsi bardiche along with a ranger, cleric, and wizard and wreck this here goblin fort for scientific data.
Stalkers also get the most known and readied maneuvers on top of all of what Ssalarn just pointed out. They may not even need to recover maneuvers mid-fight...Only very slowly over time. And even then only about three more over the warlord only one more of which he can ready. And these will get expended very very quickly if I'm boosting, countering, and striking every round I can manage.
Well, without getting any extra maneuvers readied and pretending your using 2 each round(didn't see any free actions, supposing that its a swift/immediate for a boost/counter), you can go two full rounds without reloading at level one and that slowly increases to six at level 20. Hopefully you won't run into too many long encounters, but those tend to suck anyway imo, and at least you still have a way to recharge.
On the other hand, spending your action doing seemingly nothing sucks. Worse so during long combats imo. Its just boring. That's one of the things I like about risk, they look like a lot of fun to me and they encourage me to act. If I do nothing, it doesn't feel like I'm taking an action. At best I can defend myself. Yay?
Another thing to consider is martial adepts don't have to depend on their maneuvers like an arcane caster does spells. Outside of maneuvers you can always just stabbinate(full attack) it. Some of the best ways to use a warblade in 3.5 didn't need maneuvers, you would full attack if you had the option but maneuvers were just gravy and bolstered defenses/mobility and would be used if you had to move(or you know, pounce charger with time stands still...). Your still a class with 3/4 BAB, at least okay AC, and a situational bonus to damage. You also still have your bonuses from your stance. Though I think this applies more to the full BAB classes than 3/4. Full BAB you can always just grab a 2h and power attack and your doing pretty good just full attacking.
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Deadly Strikes can be active while you are taking your recovery action. You still threaten, you're still capable of doing more damage per hit, you're still the guy with access to offensive counters.
I'm not going to try and convince you any more, but you're objectively wrong in thinking that the Stalker needs to be able to deal more damage. He also doesn't need to suddenly get Combat Reflexes like a Warder, because he already has bonus feats and favors DEX so he should be able to pick it up that way, with the ability to get a better array of weapons for doing what he needs to do.
E]
Well, without getting any extra maneuvers readied and pretending your using 2 each round(didn't see any free actions, supposing that its a swift/immediate for a boost/counter), you can go two full rounds without reloading at level one and that slowly increases to six at level 20. Hopefully you won't run into too many long encounters, but those tend to suck anyway imo, and at least you still have a way to recharge.
And keep in mind you can only ready one use of each maneuver. Choosing the right maneuver at the right time becomes important. The recovery mechanic works well in differentiating them from spellcasters in that it doesn't immediately screw them for expending something early in the fight they desperately needed later. The issue of course is how it looks. To throw in some humor.
Warlord: "SCREW IT! YOLOOOOO!!!!!"
Warder: "Oh crap let me just push these things back for a minute while I rethink this course of action."
Stalker: "I will stand her dumbfounded for a moment and try not to die."
Just doesn't feel in character for the way I see the class. :)
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Stalker: "I will stand her dumbfounded for a moment and try not to die."
I'm sorry, but this is your limited interpretation of what is happening, not what is actually happening. I could just as easily say "I center myself, ready to deflect attacks and gathering my power while prepared to lash out at anyone foolish enough to provide me an opening".
I'm not going to try and convince you any more, but you're objectively wrong in thinking that the Stalker needs to be able to deal more damage.
Not really thinking that. That's just an idea. What I want is just being more active than standing still with an armor bonus after spending resources. I just think doing damage is in theme. Other things might fit this category.
You're telling me some wonderful ways to get around the disadvantages of this ability (notes for later) but nothing that makes it more fun.
Stalker: "I will stand her dumbfounded for a moment and try not to die."
Just doesn't feel in character for the way I see the class. :)
'Stand her?' Dumbfounded indeed! And yes, when I hear the word stalker I think relentless predator in combat, rather than someone who goes on the defense. Is that a long your lines of thinking?
Stalker: "I will stand her dumbfounded for a moment and try not to die."I'm sorry, but this is your limited interpretation of what is happening, not what is actually happening. I could just as easily say "I center myself, ready to deflect attacks and gathering my power while prepared to lash out at anyone foolish enough to provide me an opening".
Well that's an if. That's supposing you burn your ki point to do it and that you've got a counter ready. Ki points are limited too, so you may not be able to even redraw a mass of maneuvers back. You do however have a likely high dodge, if that matters.
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Well that's an if. That's supposing you burn your ki point to do it and that you've got a counter ready. Ki points are limited too, so you may not be able to even redraw a mass of maneuvers back. You do however have a likely high dodge, if that matters.
If you didn't ready counters, you generally won't even need to recover maneuvers. An ability that allows you to recover all of your spent maneuvers while boosting your AC is not a disadvantage.
And yes, when I hear the word stalker I think relentless predator in combat, rather than someone who goes on the defense. Is that a long your lines of thinking?
Yes and no.
They can be defensive but in an offensive manner (hence counters) like some forms of martial arts (I'm thinking of a particularly nasty and in your face form of Muay Thai) to the Warder's judo and the warlords pro-wrestling.
I do know they work, and work quite well. It's obvious Ssalarn has spent quite a bit of time with them and appreciate his input.
But for all his suggestions it doesn't fix the core gripe.
Well that's an if. That's supposing you burn your ki point to do it and that you've got a counter ready. Ki points are limited too, so you may not be able to even redraw a mass of maneuvers back. You do however have a likely high dodge, if that matters.If you didn't ready counters, you generally won't even need to recover maneuvers. An ability that allows you to recover all of your spent maneuvers while boosting your AC is not a disadvantage.
I didn't say it was. I said it requiring a ki point was and that it could be a bit boring. Btw, getting back all of your maneuvers? I thought it was your wisdom score(min 2)?
I didn't say it was. I said it requiring a ki point was and that it could be a bit boring. Btw, getting back all of your maneuvers? I thought it was your wisdom score(min 2)?Well that's an if. That's supposing you burn your ki point to do it and that you've got a counter ready. Ki points are limited too, so you may not be able to even redraw a mass of maneuvers back. You do however have a likely high dodge, if that matters.If you didn't ready counters, you generally won't even need to recover maneuvers. An ability that allows you to recover all of your spent maneuvers while boosting your AC is not a disadvantage.
It can be pretty easy to recover most if not all. I'm building a dex dwarf right now that can recover nearly all his maneuvers at 5 and still maintain good bonuses elsewhere. Except charisma of course.
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I didn't say it was. I said it requiring a ki point was and that it could be a bit boring. Btw, getting back all of your maneuvers? I thought it was your wisdom score(min 2)?Well that's an if. That's supposing you burn your ki point to do it and that you've got a counter ready. Ki points are limited too, so you may not be able to even redraw a mass of maneuvers back. You do however have a likely high dodge, if that matters.If you didn't ready counters, you generally won't even need to recover maneuvers. An ability that allows you to recover all of your spent maneuvers while boosting your AC is not a disadvantage.
It is your WIS score, but given the abilities that Stalker has, this should be fairly high and see you through most if not all of your maneuvers at most levels of play.
Tark-Your gripe is that they don't have an ability that specifically triggers when they recover, but the Warlord burns his swift action to take a risky Gambit and get his maneuvers back, and it may or may not work, and he can't use a boost in the same round. Warder becomes a temporary bulwark and gets Combat Reflexes, but only while doing this, which means he probably doesn't have it at all when not recovering. The Stalker gets more abilities and access to extra feats than either of them. It's your responsibility to put those together in a way that suits your style of play. Not every ability in a class needs to be entirely encapsulated within itself. It's perfectly normal (even preferable) for an ability to interact with other class features. The Stalker has a guaranteed way to get multiple maneuvers back (the Warlord does not), it's appropriate to a ki-based class, and he has all the resources he needs to still be useful while doing it. If you spend those resources on something else, that is your choice, not a flaw of the class design.
So... Any commentary about what I've said about Ki?
Tark-
Your gripe is that they don't have an ability that specifically triggers when they recover, but the Warlord burns his swift action to take a risky Gambit and get his maneuvers back, and it may or may not work, and he can't use a boost in the same round. Warder becomes a temporary bulwark and gets Combat Reflexes, but only while doing this, which means he probably doesn't have it at all when not recovering. The Stalker gets more abilities and access to extra feats than either of them. It's your responsibility to put those together in a way that suits your style of play. Not every ability in a class needs to be entirely encapsulated within itself. It's perfectly normal (even preferable) for an ability to interact with other class features. The Stalker has a guaranteed way to get multiple maneuvers back (the Warlord does not) and he has all the resources he needs to still be useful while doing it.
Actually as a player my only responsibility is to have fun.
You've yet to tell me why this is fun. You've talked a lot about balance, a lot about optimization and how this is a sensible safe option adn how I should jsut eat my plain oatmeal because it's more nutritious than the warlords coco pebbles in chocolate milk but nothing about why this is fun.
You've argued why others might be less fun or how I'm wrong. But wrong or not I find them fun. Risk is fun. Becoming the impenetrable fortress is fun. This is not fun. Not to me. It has all the impact on my fun button as casting shield mid combat. It's sensible and possibly necessary but no one at the table is going "OOOOOOOO you see that!"
I'm sorry but until you can explain it to me in those terms I'm not really going to be convinced. You are trying to use objectivity on my senseless subjectivity. Which, I remind, is how a lot of players can and will view it.
Now you can say that this is not the class for me. But the important bit here is that I want it to be.
I'm really hoping this is getting through to you because I'm progressively finding it harder to break it down so you understand what's wrong. It's not mechanics. It's how mechanics are tickling my niggly little ape brain.
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So... Any commentary about what I've said about Ki?
I agree that ki can be a little weird, but Chris is working within the framework of a system that already exists within Pathfinder. I also think that an encounter based resource that fuels another encounter based resource is... redundant.
That being said, I think an alternate system where ki has fewer uses but renews between encounters (if I'm understanding what you're saying right) would be a pretty cool way to run it and might actually be a good improvement for the monk. I don't think I'd make it a core rule though, and I don't think it's necessary for this particular class. It'd be kind of a cool way to turn Sensei type monks into encounter-based partial casters who are actually decent in combat though.|
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Actually as a player my only responsibility is to have fun.
You've yet to tell me why this is fun. You've talked a lot about balance, a lot about optimization and how this is a sensible safe option adn how I should jsut eat my plain oatmeal because it's more nutritious than the warlords coco pebbles in chocolate milk but nothing about why this is fun.
You've argued why others might be less fun or how I'm wrong. But wrong or not I find them fun. Risk is fun. Becoming the impenetrable fortress is fun. This is not fun. Not to me. It has all the impact on my fun button as casting shield mid combat. It's sensible and possibly necessary but no one at the table is going "OOOOOOOO you see that!"
I'm sorry but until you can explain it to me in those terms I'm not really going to be convinced. You are trying to use objectivity on my senseless subjectivity. Which, I remind, is how a lot of players can and will view it.
Now you can say that this is not the class for me. But the important bit here is that I want it to be.
I'm really hoping this is getting through to you...
Unfortunately, the game is made for intelligent human beings, not apes. Weapon Training isn't flashy, Proficiencies aren't flashy, BAB and saves aren't flashy, hit points aren't flashy, there's a lot feats that aren't flashy, but they're all part of the game and they all contribute to what each class and character is able to contribute, and they're just as important as Fireballs and Maneuvers.
What is getting through to think that rule of cool should trump balance. The Stalker is cool. I'm sorry that being able to teleport around the battlefield, throw handfuls dice when you deal damage, utilize tons of special abilities and have more skill points than all but two classes in the game, neither of which is as combat capable as the Stalker, isn't flashy enough for you.You know what isn't fun? When designers ignore balance and introduce mechanics into the game that make the game not fun for other players. When they throw balance out the window in favor of rule of cool, so that the only people who get to have fun are the people who choose the broken element that wasn't made with the context of the system it's being introduced to in mind. The Stalker is an amazing class with awesome abilities, and it is fun. Your objection boils down to the fact that an ability in the class actually requires you to think to maximize its potential. That a class hasn't been idiot proofed and given the ability to go all Dragon Ball Z every single perceivable second of play. YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THE CLASS YET. You are literally sitting here saying "I see an ability that I believe would limit my choices for a single round, and things that don't scale up every single round aren't fun." It's nice that you feel that way, but it has nothing to do with good game design, and bad game design isn't fun. I want to enjoy this product too. I want to be able to have players at my table have the option of choosing this class, which only happens if the class is well built and well balanced. If it isn't, then it makes the game less fun for other players.
You're wrong about your responsibilities as a player as well. Your responsibility as a player is to bring a meaningful contribution and have fun as part of a GROUP experience, and contribute not just to your own self-centered fun, but the fun of the people sharing the experience with you. GMs and players all have a responsibility to each other, to make the game fun and interesting for every person at the table, to share the spotlight, and to progress the story. Pushing people to ignore balance and good game design isn't fun for anyone in the end.
I would thank you for not bringing personal insults into this. I never once insisted that balance should be compromised for fun. If you take personal issue with me I suggest you do it over a PM. I've not gone so far as to criticize how you play or view the game. I've merely expressed my views and made suggestions how to fix them it is up to the designers to decide whether or not to take any of this input to heart. You have been very helpful in trying to explain why its balanced or functional and have acknowledged this multiple times. I'm sorry if my views on the game and how I want to play offend you and will refrain from speaking with you directly in the future.
So... Any commentary about what I've said about Ki?I agree that ki can be a little weird, but Chris is working within the framework of a system that already exists within Pathfinder. I also think that an encounter based resource that fuels another encounter based resource is... redundant.
That being said, I think an alternate system where ki has fewer uses but renews between encounters (if I'm understanding what you're saying right) would be a pretty cool way to run it and might actually be a good improvement for the monk. I don't think I'd make it a core rule though, and I don't think it's necessary for this particular class. It'd be kind of a cool way to turn Sensei type monks into encounter-based partial casters who are actually decent in combat though.
I don't think its redundant personally. The use of ki to recharge is one use of ki. The class has a lot of uses for ki. Most of which would turn into encounter based ones with a shared pool if you changed the way ki works. In an encounter based class too.
I also think making it alternative system within a class of an alternative system makes a lot of sense. This isn't a rogue, a monk, or a ninja. This is a stalker. He uses a pool of the same name, but for a variety of things, including a good number of his class features. Some of which he's more dependant upon to function than others.
To each their own of course.
Errant, do you have any previous works we can take a look at?
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I don't think its redundant personally. The use of ki to recharge is one use of ki. The class has a lot of uses for ki. Most of which would turn into encounter based ones with a shared pool if you changed the way ki works. In an encounter based class too.I also think making it alternative system within a class of an alternative system makes a lot of sense. This isn't a rogue, a monk, or a ninja. This is a stalker. He uses a pool of the same name, but for a variety of things, including a good number of his class features. Some of which he's more dependant upon to function than others.
To each their own of course.
I think I kind of see what you might be getting at. Instead of having a use per day ki pool and renewable maneuvers, basically increasing the total pool available and then shifting it to an entire renewing resource? Are you thinking that the maneuver pool should draw off this as well, where you've got more like 4 + WIS mod uses per encounter and you spend ki to use maneuvers as well, streamlining the system, or still keeping it separate, so that the only change is less ki per encounter but functionally unlimited ki per day?
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Errant, do you have any previous works we can take a look at?
Are you looking for other stuff Chris has worked on, or older versions of the PoW classes? I've kept most of the previous playtest documents and could probably pop them over to you if you'd like.
**EDIT**
You know what's weird? I'm a veteran and it only just hit me that Path of War shares the same acronym as prisoner(s) of war. Just hit me, just now.
I think I kind of see what you might be getting at. Instead of having a use per day ki pool and renewable maneuvers, basically increasing the total pool available and then shifting it to an entire renewing resource? Are you thinking that the maneuver pool should draw off this as well, where you've got more like 4 + WIS mod uses per encounter and you spend ki to use maneuvers as well, streamlining the system, or still keeping it separate, so that the only change is less ki per encounter but functionally unlimited ki per day?
Not really. Think every encounter you get an allotment of ki/focus points. This is per encounter and it resets for every encounter(possibly after a rest period, say 10 minutes?). This would start low and scale over time. At early levels you get to use ki realted abilities once or twice, but as you level(because it scales) you get more ki to use per encounter, and you also happen to gain more abilities that eat through your ki. Effectively this would give you more control over balance and let them fight all day like the other martial adepts, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about losing your maneuver recovery for a final battle. Its not to use your maneuvers, its to use everything related to ki. This would mean you would get a much smaller number. 4+wisdom per encounter, but using it for every maneuver, would force you to burn out mid encounter and be stuck without ki points or maneuvers and you'd lose your mind's eye. Ouch.
4+ wis to use every encounter would be insane. Think 1 +1 per 4 levels or equal to wisdom modifier(both are effectively scaling). This also changes Ki Vampire so that its an option for long term battles rather than long term adventures, and it would turn it into a reward for each foe slain. Escalation!
Another effect would be you further separate the class from its roots so the ki/focus points don't look like a robbed class feature shared between several classes, but as something unique to the stalker.
You know what's weird? I'm a veteran and it only just hit me that Path of War shares the same acronym as prisoner(s) of war. Just hit me, just now.
I've been trying to avoid using the POW acronym because it feels awkward because of it actually...
Errant, do you have any previous works we can take a look at?Are you looking for other stuff Chris has worked on, or older versions of the PoW classes? I've kept most of the previous playtest documents and could probably pop them over to you if you'd like.
**EDIT**
You know what's weird? I'm a veteran and it only just hit me that Path of War shares the same acronym as prisoner(s) of war. Just hit me, just now.
Previous work, not PoW.
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You can find the lion's share of it here.
As far as the acronym, it never occurred to me, but originally I was calling it (when it was just my vanity project and not what it is now) the Libram of Battle.
-X
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Okay, so I should give a bit of history before I fire off at the mouth about this:
I first got introduced to this project back when it was Libram of Battle. A lot of these classes and disciplines are old, dear friends of mine. I remember when the Stalker had Sneak Attack, when the Warder was the Knight, and when I was yelling at Chris because I felt (and still feel) that the combination of Solar Wind and Steel Serpent at low levels gave way too much damage to thrown-weapon builds.
Stalker is a class that I've always wanted to love and almost always hated. I hated the first incarnation of Stalker and the second incarnation of Stalker. I hated the one I read when I was signed onto the project. To be frank I still hate this one, for reasons that I won't get into right now because they're not relevant to this discussion.
Despite this, I feel that the current version of the Stalker is just fine. The primary complaints I'm reading here are about ki and the recovery mechanic, so let's address those:
- Ki has precedent in Pathfinder. Now, I'm going to get this out of the way: I hate the way Ki was done in 3.5, I hate how it's done in Pathfinder, and, mostly, I just hate Ki as a hard mechanical concept. But Ki can very easily have a place here and that place being Stalker makes quite a bit of sense; Stalkers move harmoniously with the flow of battle, tuning themselves to the flow of energy until they're in a position to still that flow forever. The idea of ki fits a lot of thematic roles the Stalker can fill, and its role as a daily resource makes it an incentive to think tactically about expending resource and synergistic use of ki-based abilities.
For example, the Stalker can spend a point of Ki to get Deadly Strike damage on their Strikes for [Wis Mod] rounds. First, in combat? That's eternity. But secondly and more importantly, how many times do you think you'll have to recover maneuvers when your already-high-damage strikes are coming in for an additional +1d6/2 levels? Thus by using that option when it's appropriate, recovering maneuvers in combat becomes a less likely scenario.
Utilizing Ki also lets us introduce Ki-focused options that automaticaly play nice with non-Stalker characters, which supports existing classes and is thus A Good Thing. Asmodeus only knows that Monk could use the bone.
- Now, on the subject of recovery. Yes, the Stalker's recovery method is the one most removed from their role in the party; they pause their murdering spree and regain resources. I'm not particularly a fan of forcing the Stalker to pay resources for the recovery but I'm willing to leave it alone because the AC bonus does something that hasn't been discussed here: it sheds aggro. When the Stalker, who has been making quite a menace of himself what with the gory murder and supernatural teleportation and throttling people with their own shadows and suchlike, "stands still and dumbfounded" he is also lowering his priority as a target and enforcing that lowered priority by making it a better resource expense to attack people other than him. If you're dumb enough to proceed to try anyway he's got an action open to make you regret it with a Counter. Given Stalker's relative fragility, a self-started way to shed aggro is a pretty important resource and one I approve of.
- Now, on the subject of recovery. Yes, the Stalker's recovery method is the one most removed from their role in the party; they pause their murdering spree and regain resources. I'm not particularly a fan of forcing the Stalker to pay resources for the recovery but I'm willing to leave it alone because the AC bonus does something that hasn't been discussed here: it sheds aggro. When the Stalker, who has been making quite a menace of himself what with the gory murder and supernatural teleportation and throttling people with their own shadows and suchlike, "stands still and dumbfounded" he is also lowering his priority as a target and enforcing that lowered priority by making it a better resource expense to attack people other than him. If you're dumb enough to proceed to try anyway he's got an action open to make you regret it with a Counter. Given Stalker's relative fragility, a self-started way to shed aggro is a pretty important resource and one I approve of.
Unfortunately d20 combat just doesn't work like that. If an enemy sees you just stop after you mystic death ninja'd his buddies he's just as likely to give it his everything to get you as flee. The only tried and true method to shed enemies incoming is to keep them from coming at you at all. It may be discouraging to see them be on the defensive and ready to strike buuttt a number of enemies either don't care or just don't have the capacity to interpret that.
Regardless I'm glad for the response and the acknowledgement about it.
In any case it seems it's been pushed for release anyway and continue to look forward to the final product.
Unfortunately d20 combat just doesn't work like that. If an enemy sees you just stop after you mystic death ninja'd his buddies he's just as likely to give it his everything to get you as flee. The only tried and true method to shed enemies incoming is to keep them from coming at you at all. It may be discouraging to see them be on the defensive and ready to strike buuttt a number of enemies either don't care or just don't have the capacity to interpret that.
Pays to have a warder near by then, huh? (couldn't help it! sorry! :P)
But I have to agree with Knives here, unsurprisingly, as we discussed this mechanic and methodology to the point of argument and this satisfied us both in the end.
-X
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But I have to agree with Knives here, unsurprisingly, as we discussed this mechanic and methodology to the point of argument and this satisfied us both in the end.-X
Oh those are lots of fun. :/ I've taken to having to put my comments and justifications in my drafts beforehand to skip the gut reaction part and move on to some actual discussion.
and its role as a daily resource makes it an incentive to think tactically about expending resource and synergistic use of ki-based abilities.
Aren't daily resources the exact opposite reason you'd want to play a class using maneuvers though?
Utilizing Ki also lets us introduce Ki-focused options that automaticaly play nice with non-Stalker characters, which supports existing classes and is thus A Good Thing. Asmodeus only knows that Monk could use the bone.
I'm curious, how does it help the monk? The options given for ki in the stalker class are for stalker, unless your multiclassing, but then your really not a monk. 'Best way to fix a monk is to not be a monk' type of thing.
When the Stalker, who has been making quite a menace of himself what with the gory murder and supernatural teleportation and throttling people with their own shadows and suchlike, "stands still and dumbfounded" he is also lowering his priority as a target and enforcing that lowered priority by making it a better resource expense to attack people other than him.
I dunno, there isn't an agro mechanic beyond what you play with. On hand he isn't doing anything, and on the other he just went on a killing spree and he just got back his stuff to unload even more death. The only thing that makes me not want to hit him is that I know he just got an increase in AC. YMMV.
I hate the way Ki was done in 3.5, I hate how it's done in Pathfinder, and, mostly, I just hate Ki as a hard mechanical concept. But Ki can very easily have a place here and that place being Stalker makes quite a bit of sense;
Hmm... Does that mean my Ki ideas are an awesome alterative and something to think about? [/vain]
Alright, so... a thought for you all:
Fighters need a little love and a martial template. So we know they've got two sides to their class in Pathfinder: Bonus Feats, and Weapon/Armor Training. Veritably every archetype under the sun trades away the weapon/armor training stuff, and bravery. Rarely does it effect the bonus feats. I also think we can all agree that fighter archetypes makes fighter actually more fun to play than normal, because it lends new abilities to make your schtick work (firm believe that all fighters must have a schtick, something that they focus on doing). So what if my archetype for fighter, instead of attacking the same old features, instead, went after some bonus feats? Pay out 6 of your bonus feats, and maybe heavy armor and tower shields to basically get Martial Training 1-6 twice.
This gives your fighter maneuvers up to 6th level, some bonus feats, and the track of fighter's abilities that you could in theory trade for one of those flavorful archetypes.
Too strong? Too awesome? You decide.
-X
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Chris,
I like the idea but a couple things stand out....
First, it's going to be weird to keep Armor Training but shed heavy armor proficiency. Armor Proficiency is one of those traits that's a little wonky to begin with because only a very specific subset of builds actually have the DEX to get much out of the ability. You're mostly just shedding check penalties. Considering the fact that you can emulate 2/3 of the class ability by buying mithral armor it's just.... underwhelming. That's why pretty much every archetype trades it out. If you're going to leave it in, you need to leave in heavy armor proficiency as well.
As to the rest.....
One of the only reasons to play a fighter is the bonus feats. Weapon Training is nice, but what is nicer is being the guy who's completed an entire feat tree like the archery block or Thunder and Fang 5 levels ahead of anyone else. I worry that a 5th level fighter with an archetype like the one you've described (or a fighter of any level really) is essentially just a Warder with +1 to attack and damage, no marking mechanic, and few other class abilities to speak of. He can take Fighter specific feats, but doesn't really have the resources to spend on them any more. You've trimmed the fighter down to the same or fewer number of bonus feats as two of the three initiator classes and the return on investment is.... the ability to do maneuvers not as well. Without a little bit more to it, I have a hard time conceptualizing a situation where you'd select a fighter archetype like that over a straight initiator class.
I get that you're proposing an essentially doubled return on investment for feats, but you're also locking the class into those choices. Martial Training also potentially opens up some additional skills, but it doesn't really change the fact that the Fighter barely has enough skill points to cover his base allotment of skills.
Wait, theres a reason to be a fighter?
Seriously though, weapon training is gold, armor training is cool if you have a specific build in mind.
Feats in pathfinder are pretty bummins in general. If you replace feats with feats that grant maneuvers.. well your just shutting down feat options for maneuvers that come from feats. Take out bravery and give the fighter one or two feats worth of maneuvers as well.