Wildshape question

[drbuzzard]

Ok, so I'm considering making a Bat Shaman Druid. However I don't want to do so if it is too self gimping.

One of the core abilities of this AT is that you wildshape into a bat at +2 level, but wildshape into anything else at -2 level.

So say I get to 10th level, I don't see how there is even an option to change into a bat at +2 level. It appears that this is just a dead end past 6th level if you want to actually be good at wildshaping.

Is this correct? Is there some way to find higher end bats to change into, or are you just going to be boned?

[Paw the Killer GM]

Once you get to certain levels, none of your Wild Shaping improves except for duration and # times per day. If you wanted to get faster access to the Bat wildshapes and you wanted that type of an RPG theme then I would suggest the Bat Shaman. However, that also means that your Bat Shaping abilites peak faster than a core rulebook Druid's does.

There are many groups that rarely exceed 7th level or so in their campaigns. For players in those groups a Shaman is a good way to get the most out of your wildshape before the campaign ends.

[DeltaOneG]

Only available bat (so far as I can tell) is the dire bat and you'd be able to transform into that at level 6 anyway. Not sure the wild-shaping bonus gets you anything except the blindsense. Also, since the bat isn't strong on combat you'll be gimped on that use of wild-shape as well.

[pauljathome]

One house rule that many GMs allow is to let a shaman apply the same templates to wild shape as they can to summons.

This helps a little. Not too much for the bat shaman, admittedly :-)

[drbuzzard]

This is for PFS, so it has to be RAW, and it looks like RAW says that Bat Shaman is peachy to about 6th level, and then takes a large hit if you wish to continue wildshaping. It certainly appears to be a trap, so I will pass.

[LazarX]

drbuzzard wrote:

This is for PFS, so it has to be RAW, and it looks like RAW says that Bat Shaman is peachy to about 6th level, and then takes a large hit if you wish to continue wildshaping. It certainly appears to be a trap, so I will pass.

It's not a "trap". It's simply not an animal shaman who's meant to be a melee combat monster. What you need to decide what are your priorities in choosing an animal totem.

You also need to remember that being an Animal Shaman isn't only about the wildshaping. In fact for at least a couple I can think of off the hat, such as Eagle, wildshaping is at the bottom of the priority list.

[drbuzzard]

Now I will grant that druids are sufficiently powerful that they do not need to be firing on all cylinders to be quite effective. However it is clear that this archetype is less effective than a vanilla druid. It might only be a smidgen, but nonetheless it is less so. I consider it a trap in that sense. YMMV.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Due to the awkward detriment; Yes these archetypes are essentially a trap.

Most people will tell you, it's a trap. The only reason I even considered one, was for the SWEET domains some of them give you access to. Liberation Domain being one of my favorites and one of the most helpful for your team.

[Jeff Clem]

If you take shaping focus feat your wild shape ability will be considered 10 level if your multi classing into another class after 6th level.

Shaping Focus

Your powers of shapeshifting outstrip your dabbling in the druidic faith.

Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks.

Benefit: If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level.

Special: This feat has no effect if you are not a multiclassed druid.

[Weirdo]

LazarX wrote:

You also need to remember that being an Animal Shaman isn't only about the wildshaping. In fact for at least a couple I can think of off the hat, such as Eagle, wildshaping is at the bottom of the priority list.

For most animal shamans, it really can't be about the wildshaping. You don't get Wild Shape at all until level 6 with these archetypes, and then once you hit level 8 a +2 effective level for animal shapes is pretty pointless - there are no improved 10th level animal shapes. The only possible point at which your wild shape is stronger is at levels 6-7.

Some animal shamans might get enough cool stuff to make up for the poor wild shape. Does the bat shaman?

• Ability to take the Darkness or Trickery domains, which is nice if you do want one of those domains.
  
• Improved wild empathy with bats, extremely circumstantial.
  
• For a few minutes a day, gain blindsense 20ft or fly 30ft, or a bite attack (and since the bat shaman isn't a melee-friendly archetype, the latter is probably not very useful) and speak with mammals.
  
• Faster, templated summoning of bats. The ability to summon as a standard action is normally a huge benefit of animal shamans, but given that in most cases bats are useful as scouts (out-of-combat) rather than combatants, the ability to summon them quickly probably won't be much use unless you're fighting something invisible.
  
• Three bonus feats by level 17, the best of which is Improved Initiative.
  

If you fight tons of invisible stuff, getting access to blindsense and summons with blindsense is very useful. Otherwise, I don't think the above list is worth the hit to your wild shape - and remember that you also lose alter self at will and poison immunity, both useful abilities.