Looking for ideas for an oracle that is ACTUALLY blind


Homebrew and House Rules


I'm GMing a game for which I have a player that would like to play an oracle with the Blind curse, but who is actually blind, rather than just very near-sighted.

My questions are as follows:
1) Has anyone had any experience with this, positive or negative, in one of their games?
2) What combination of effects like blindsense, tremorsense, scent, and blindsight (combo of abilities and ranges thereof) seems like it would make the character playable without being overpowered?
3) Are there other abilities that might work?

Contributor

Well, first remember that the curse you're referring to is never called the "blind curse," its "clouded vision." Very different, as you note. Here are some thoughts:

1) First, how is your player as a roleplayer? Blindness is very hard to work well. Many stories and media representations of "blind but badass" don't really do it very well, there are cheap ways around being blind. For a good example of a blind character for whom being blind is central to the character, see Toph of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

2) The biggest problem with pulling off a "blind" curse is the simple question of, "How can the oracle target their allies? Or even distinguish friend from foe with their spells?" Acute hearing basically comes down to blindsense, similar to a bat, but even then you aren't going to be able to tell friend from foe apart. Noting Toph again, she had a neat trick where she used vibrations in the earth to "see" in the sense that she could tell her friends' feet apart from the steps of her opponents. It was helpful that she and her friends were all children though, and therefore had lighter steps.

Honestly, I'm not sure how you are going to pull this off. Being blind oracle is certainly a cool concept, but ultimately speaking its not a very manageable one mechanically.


He's a great RPer. My favorite person to game with.

I've never seen Avatar, but I had in mind Denzel Washington's character from Book of Eli, but a bit "weaker".

As for targeting allies, I'd probably allow perception checks using his acute hearing or scent to identify the unique sounds or smells of his allies and their position relative to himself.

I was thinking something like blindsight 5 or 10 feet, and blindsense out to 30'. My concern is with this eliminating (most) chances for enemies to sneak up on the party. Maybe add scent out to a longer range even than that? I don't know.

If anyone can pull it off, he can. I just want to find the right balance so that it's fun and interesting without being too strong.


Having some short ranged blindsight is basically mandatory for him to actually use touch healing spells on allies in combat reliably. The benefits obviously need to be more front-loaded than a normal curse, because the penalty is far more severe.

Curse: You're blind!
Benefits:
1st level: You gain the Blind-fight feat and Scent (30 ft). You are never caught offguard and gain Uncanny Dodge. Furthermore, you have blindsight out to 5 ft and gain a +8 on non-visual Perception checks due to your more acute senses.
5th level: You gain Blindsense out to 30 ft and can use targeted spells* on creatures you sense, though the spell has a 50% chance of not affecting them. You gain Improved Blind-fight.
10th level: You gain Tremorsense 30 ft. You are able to act in any surprise round, rolling initiative normally, regardless of whether you were aware of the surprise or not. You gain Greater Blind-fight, and your ranged attacks benefit from the ignored/reduced concealment just as your melee attacks do.
15th level: Your blindsight extends to 30 ft, and blindsense to 60 ft. Your targeted spells have no chance of failure against targets you can sense but not "see."

*Normally you need line of sight to target someone w/ a spell.


I really like the look of that, Stream! As does my player/friend.

I think I'd maybe make some tweaks, though. Probably lower the bonus to Perception to +4 at 1st level, and increase it by +2 at each step, to a total of +10 at level 15.

Id probably also remove Uncanny Dodge. The Blind-Fight chain does a lot of what Uncanny Dodge does for this character, and works alongside the range of your special senses, while I think you probably SHOULD be caught flat-footed if attacked from outside of your sensory range. Maybe push Uncanny Dodge up to 15th level when your blindsense moves out to 60 ft.

I don't actually get what the benefits of Greater B-F are: do you no longer miss due to concealment since you treat total concealment as normal concealment and ignore anything less than total, or do you treat total concealment as just being a 20% miss chance now? Aside from that, all of the effects are the same as for Improved B-F, right?

Does that look too weak?


"Kurayami nara kocchi no mon da (Darkness is my advantage)" -Zatoichi

Build the concept around darkness/deeper darkness to bring everyone down to your level and then beat them with experience.


Glad you like it.

Any Barbarian gets Uncanny Dodge at level 2. A guy whose other senses have been honed from living years with no vision at all? Getting it right at level 1 seemed fair. As it is, even at level 15 his limited sensory range makes him vulnerable to long range attacks, no need to exacerbate it further. The attack may originate from outside his sensory range, but he will hear the arrow/dagger/whatever as it flies within his sensory range (or "feels the vibrations of the air" or so forth), so it seems reasonable to me...

It's possible Greater B-F does nothing. I just knew Blind-fight was essential -- beyond the obvious stuff, it also removes the nasty halved speed for hampered vision which would have crippled him worse than the lame curse does as its only drawback on top of all the other bad parts of blind -- and that improved was of benefit at that level. So I threw in Greater for completeness.

Looking it over... I think the only thing Greater B-F is doing is removing the +2 attack bonus from the attacker. Of course, that's assuming Uncanny Dodge is in there. If not, it's doing more, but level 10 is a long time to wait to not be pincussioned by archers. The treating 50% concealment against melee attacks as 20% thing would be helpful, but you already have blindsight, so I'm not sure there's a single situation where it would actually be relevant. But, maybe there would be?

On a side note, I was also considering adding Elven Accuracy to the benefits at level 5 or 10, so that the Oracle can actually make ranged attacks with some decency. It's race-restricted normally, but as far as I know, it's the only ranged-version of the blind-fight feat there is (except it doesn't give nearly as many benefits). On the other hand...Seeking property isn't expensive.


PC: "Hi, I'm blind, can I come on an adventure with you?"

Group: ... "uh.. sorry, we'll wait for the next spell caster. Thanks though. *tosses a coin into the poor sods tin cup* Good luck with that.

Adventuring is *dangerous*. Not being able to see or tell friend from foe or even being able to see someone put a finger to their lips because they heard something and don't want to shout it out to shut up is exceedingly hazardous as is the inability to see basic things (like that your friends split up or fell down a hole or that your buddy 20 feet away just took 4 crossbow bolts to the chest and could use a hand).

If the PC is a greater burden to the group than they are a boon and the *only possible reason* for their inclusion in the group is the fact that its their friend playing the character- then its time to skip it.

Also: if you are just going to load him down with bonuses so he's not actually blind then just say "your character is blind but gets no bonuses or penalties from it." and go about your merry way.

I.. wouldn't.. as a player or DM- but that doesn't mean you can't. (or shouldn't.)

-S


My list of benefits is far from "not actually blind" and even at the end is still severely limited in what he can "see."

Also, curses are supposed to be a net benefit, if not at level 1, then by the end, for sure. It's a class feature, not a class hazard. That said, I think my example is still pretty underpowered. Being blind is really really limiting.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Glad you like it.

Any Barbarian gets Uncanny Dodge at level 2. A guy whose other senses have been honed from living years with no vision at all? Getting it right at level 1 seemed fair. As it is, even at level 15 his limited sensory range makes him vulnerable to long range attacks, no need to exacerbate it further. The attack may originate from outside his sensory range, but he will hear the arrow/dagger/whatever as it flies within his sensory range (or "feels the vibrations of the air" or so forth), so it seems reasonable to me...

It's possible Greater B-F does nothing. I just knew Blind-fight was essential -- beyond the obvious stuff, it also removes the nasty halved speed for hampered vision which would have crippled him worse than the lame curse does as its only drawback on top of all the other bad parts of blind -- and that improved was of benefit at that level. So I threw in Greater for completeness.

Looking it over... I think the only thing Greater B-F is doing is removing the +2 attack bonus from the attacker. Of course, that's assuming Uncanny Dodge is in there. If not, it's doing more, but level 10 is a long time to wait to not be pincussioned by archers. The treating 50% concealment against melee attacks as 20% thing would be helpful, but you already have blindsight, so I'm not sure there's a single situation where it would actually be relevant. But, maybe there would be?

On a side note, I was also considering adding Elven Accuracy to the benefits at level 5 or 10, so that the Oracle can actually make ranged attacks with some decency. It's race-restricted normally, but as far as I know, it's the only ranged-version of the blind-fight feat there is (except it doesn't give nearly as many benefits). On the other hand...Seeking property isn't expensive.

I'll reconsider the Uncanny Dodge thing.

I like the idea of adding Elven Accuracy to this.


Selgard wrote:

PC: "Hi, I'm blind, can I come on an adventure with you?"

Group: ... "uh.. sorry, we'll wait for the next spell caster. Thanks though. *tosses a coin into the poor sods tin cup* Good luck with that.

Adventuring is *dangerous*. Not being able to see or tell friend from foe or even being able to see someone put a finger to their lips because they heard something and don't want to shout it out to shut up is exceedingly hazardous as is the inability to see basic things (like that your friends split up or fell down a hole or that your buddy 20 feet away just took 4 crossbow bolts to the chest and could use a hand).

If the PC is a greater burden to the group than they are a boon and the *only possible reason* for their inclusion in the group is the fact that its their friend playing the character- then its time to skip it.

Also: if you are just going to load him down with bonuses so he's not actually blind then just say "your character is blind but gets no bonuses or penalties from it." and go about your merry way.

I.. wouldn't.. as a player or DM- but that doesn't mean you can't. (or shouldn't.)

-S

Well, first of all, he's going to try to play off NOT being blind (go watch Book of Eli twice; it wasn't a great movie, but it was kind of cool in how this gets portrayed).

Second, I try to work characters in in such a way that it doesn't feel TOTALLY hand-waved/fiat'ed, even if that's often just a respected NPC asking them to take someone along. Planning something more involved with this character.

And as for not having penalties...being unable to see ANYTHING beyond 30 feet is a rather tremendous handicap. And I do run encounters where that will come up. Also, it would be difficult to discern friend from foe using only non-visual senses and blindsense, and I've spoken to my friend about requiring Perception checks in particularly heated battles to keep track of who an ally is (and which one) and who an enemy is. I think blindSIGHT will ignore that problem, but he'll only have that out to 5 feet.

And, honestly, this player is often as oblivious as your enumerated concerns NORMALLY, when he CAN see, so I figure this will merely be giving him something of an excuse for why he's being such a walking calamity.


yeti1069 wrote:
Selgard wrote:

PC: "Hi, I'm blind, can I come on an adventure with you?"

Group: ... "uh.. sorry, we'll wait for the next spell caster. Thanks though. *tosses a coin into the poor sods tin cup* Good luck with that.

Adventuring is *dangerous*. Not being able to see or tell friend from foe or even being able to see someone put a finger to their lips because they heard something and don't want to shout it out to shut up is exceedingly hazardous as is the inability to see basic things (like that your friends split up or fell down a hole or that your buddy 20 feet away just took 4 crossbow bolts to the chest and could use a hand).

If the PC is a greater burden to the group than they are a boon and the *only possible reason* for their inclusion in the group is the fact that its their friend playing the character- then its time to skip it.

Also: if you are just going to load him down with bonuses so he's not actually blind then just say "your character is blind but gets no bonuses or penalties from it." and go about your merry way.

I.. wouldn't.. as a player or DM- but that doesn't mean you can't. (or shouldn't.)

-S

Well, first of all, he's going to try to play off NOT being blind (go watch Book of Eli twice; it wasn't a great movie, but it was kind of cool in how this gets portrayed).

Second, I try to work characters in in such a way that it doesn't feel TOTALLY hand-waved/fiat'ed, even if that's often just a respected NPC asking them to take someone along. Planning something more involved with this character.

And as for not having penalties...being unable to see ANYTHING beyond 30 feet is a rather tremendous handicap. And I do run encounters where that will come up. Also, it would be difficult to discern friend from foe using only non-visual senses and blindsense, and I've spoken to my friend about requiring Perception checks in particularly heated battles to keep track of who an ally is (and which one) and who an enemy is. I think blindSIGHT will ignore that problem, but...

The Book of Eli worked because he wasn't blind until the last 5 or 10 minutes of the movie. Throughout the entire rest of it, he could see just like everyone else. (Yes, I realize thats not what the writers said. Not my fault they didn't have him act like he was blind. Dude could see.)

If your player wants to be Eli, then I suggest what I said above. Make him "blind" in word only but function entirely normally due to .. well, due to whatever you want. magic or his other senses or whatever. He's blind just like someone else is blonde or the other guy is 5 ft instead of 5'5". Its just something neat on the sheet that is irrelevant to game play except for fluff.

or you can play the guy as actually Blind. In which case he can't see, needs a keeper and shouldn't be out and about in dangerous situations.

You came here asking for suggestions on how to make him blind but not really blind just kinda blind. Not as bad as blind but still blind.

My suggestion is: Make him blind, or make him not really blind.
I wouldn't, myself, go making up rules to try and make him sortakinda but not really just almost kinda blind.

Dude can't see and he's staying home, or dude pulls the eli "I can't see but can actually see" and needs no rules adjudication.

-S

Shadow Lodge

What if he was able to cast darkness as a SLA useable 3+CHA and at 5th level he can cast Deeper Darkness or darkness with his sla, and in darkness/deeper darkness he is treated as being able to see with darkvision if he use a SLA to create it. And the duration was like a summoner's summon monster. Then he is blind but can see. Giving credit to Kazaan for the idea of darkness.

Shadow Lodge

This would make the Oracle's Burden curse really powerful if you can manage it.


You could just take the clouded vision and flavor it as blindness but his "darkvision" is like sonar or spacial awareness... But I don't have much issue with that blindness curse suggestion.


Selgard wrote:
The Book of Eli worked because he wasn't blind until the last 5 or 10 minutes of the movie. Throughout the entire rest of it, he could see just like everyone else. (Yes, I realize thats not what the writers said. Not my fault they didn't have him act like he was blind. Dude could see.)

Well, he certainly did some stuff in the film that was questionable, as a blind person, unless he had something like blindsense, but there were many instances that indicated he was. Off the top of my head:

Spoiler:
he had to feel for the corpse's boots before he noticed them in the very beginning of the movie, he "reads" his Bible by running his hands over it, he only attacks the thugs along the road when one touches him, despite the guy being fairly close when menacing him, then he steps under the overpass for no reason (except to gain some advantage in the darkness, or enhance his echolocation abilities), he only attacks anyone in the big shootout after they have taken a shot at him, including some people in plain sight, he trips on the step at the cannibal's house, and only realizes they are cannibals when he hears their hands shaking while holding their teacups.

And, no, he doesn't want to play Eli, I was just using that as an example of blind, but able to get by without appearing to be so.


One simple solution would be to houserule a sort of "spell sense" that lets him sense the location of someone he has previously targeted with a spell. It would never wear off of allies, and enemies could receive saving throws to negate it.

If one of my players wanted to run with this sort of character, I would require him to be like a "magic tower"; he can't see, and so won't move much or engage in physical fighting, but he has boons to his magical power and can provide clairvoyant insight that make him worth keeping around.


yeti1069 wrote:
Selgard wrote:
The Book of Eli worked because he wasn't blind until the last 5 or 10 minutes of the movie. Throughout the entire rest of it, he could see just like everyone else. (Yes, I realize thats not what the writers said. Not my fault they didn't have him act like he was blind. Dude could see.)

Well, he certainly did some stuff in the film that was questionable, as a blind person, unless he had something like blindsense, but there were many instances that indicated he was. Off the top of my head: ** spoiler omitted **

And, no, he doesn't want to play Eli, I was just using that as an example of blind, but able to get by without appearing to be so.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about Eli- and probably about the thread entirely.

I honestly and truthfully hope you can come to a working arrangement with the player for it, and that you all have fun. :)

-S

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

If I were making a blind oracle, I'd probably do something like the following:

Blind: You are completely blind, but gain Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, and Greater Blind-Fight as a bonus feats, even if you don't meet their normal prerequisites. You also gain the ability to attract a familiar, as per the arcane bond wizard class feature, using your oracle level as your effective wizard level. You can cast share senses (sight only) as an at-will spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your oracle level. At 1st level, this spell-like ability has a range of only 5 feet, and ends immediately if your familiar is outside this range. At 5th level, this range increases to close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 caster levels). At 10th level, it increases to medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./caster level). At 15th level, it increases to long range (400 ft. + 40 ft./caster level).


I promised myself yesterday I wouldn't come back to this thread.. but.. I lied, to myself.. :(

So you get 3 feats and get to see through your familiar- as well as all of the benefits of having a familiar?

Where does being blind come in? This guy isn't blind- he just has a furry (or scaly or mechanical or whatever) pair of eyes sitting on his shoulder that gets to use wands and such.

I mean, dang. I'd take a "blind" character to get 3 feats that let me operate better in the dark than anyone else, and a free familiar that I can just see through at will. (of course, the familiar would never leave my shoulder but thats just me.)

-S


OP, take a look at the Swordmaster's Blindfold, for some inspiration

Permanent Blinded Condition
Permanent Blindsight within Reach of their melee weapon
Permanent Locate Weakness Spell

adjust accordingly for balance in your game


Epic Meepo wrote:

If I were making a blind oracle, I'd probably do something like the following:

Blind: You are completely blind, but gain Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, and Greater Blind-Fight as a bonus feats, even if you don't meet their normal prerequisites. You also gain the ability to attract a familiar, as per the arcane bond wizard class feature, using your oracle level as your effective wizard level. You can cast share senses (sight only) as an at-will spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your oracle level. At 1st level, this spell-like ability has a range of only 5 feet, and ends immediately if your familiar is outside this range. At 5th level, this range increases to close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 caster levels). At 10th level, it increases to medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./caster level). At 15th level, it increases to long range (400 ft. + 40 ft./caster level).

This would work nearly perfectly, though I would only give Blind Fight,

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Selgard wrote:
I mean, dang. I'd take a "blind" character to get 3 feats that let me operate better in the dark than anyone else, and a free familiar that I can just see through at will.

And I'd let you play that character in games I run. In fact, I have let someone play a version of that character in a game I once ran. None of the players in that game found the character's special sensory abilities particularly overpowered; and if they had, it would have been easy enough to dial back the power level by limiting the total duration of share senses to 10 minutes/level per day, usable in whatever increments are needed to balance the ability.

The Exchange

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Job Interviewer: What's your party role?
Blind Oracle: Well, I'm a spontaneous divine spellcaster.
JI: Gosh, limited spell selection? It's a good thing you can use scrolls.
BO: Well, actually, I can't.
JI: Oh. Well, I suppose you throw a lot of attack spells?
BO: Area-of-effects. But the GM hides the map and makes me call out the range and direction I'm throwing 'em.
JI: Oh. Well, I bet you're really good at close combat then?
BO: With the assistance of a very useful feat, I'm not utterly crippled in my defense and only about a quarter of my attacks are automatic misses.
JI: I can only assume you're a top-notch healer. What do you do when an ally is silenced or paralyzed or unconscious?
BO: I wander around trying to find them without crashing into enemies.
JI: I see. So, what exactly do you do?
BO: Oh, carry the torch and the baggage, and yell encouragement. It's not as fulfilling as I thought the character concept would be, I admit.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Getting kind of tired of the "this is stupid" replies to some of my queries on the boards.

I asked pointed questions, looking for answers to those questions.

Lincoln, did you have a blind oracle in a game you played in or ran? That snarky bit you posted looks like conjecture. If so, please stow it. That goes for anyone else looking to post here. That may sound abrasive, but there's no reason to come in and just dump some negativity because YOU think the idea is stupid/won't work/won't be enjoyable.

I asked for game experiences with blind characters, and suggestions for how to run a blind character in a way that gives it enough mitigation to the blindness to still be fun and playable, while not making the character equal to, or stronger than a sighted character.


Epic Meepo wrote:

If I were making a blind oracle, I'd probably do something like the following:

Blind: You are completely blind, but gain Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, and Greater Blind-Fight as a bonus feats, even if you don't meet their normal prerequisites. You also gain the ability to attract a familiar, as per the arcane bond wizard class feature, using your oracle level as your effective wizard level. You can cast share senses (sight only) as an at-will spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your oracle level. At 1st level, this spell-like ability has a range of only 5 feet, and ends immediately if your familiar is outside this range. At 5th level, this range increases to close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 caster levels). At 10th level, it increases to medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./caster level). At 15th level, it increases to long range (400 ft. + 40 ft./caster level).

The idea is cool, I think, but goes too far in negating the blindness. You end up having to restrict the usage to rounds/day in order to challenge the character on occasion, or you go minutes/day and often don't ever eclipse the usage limit, making it irrelevant. In either case, what you end up with is a character who is nigh-useless in a lot of non-combat situations, and definitely slows the party down.

If you leave it up full-time, I think it goes too far toward negating the penalty of being blind. You essentially have sight if your familiar is with you, or you have an essentially free scrying device. Then it's up to the GM to either allow this, or make it a point to threaten the familiar, and I don't really want to do either.

Again, I think the idea is COOL, and has merit, but I don't want to use this at my table.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

I promised myself yesterday I wouldn't come back to this thread.. but.. I lied, to myself.. :(

So you get 3 feats and get to see through your familiar- as well as all of the benefits of having a familiar?

Where does being blind come in? This guy isn't blind- he just has a furry (or scaly or mechanical or whatever) pair of eyes sitting on his shoulder that gets to use wands and such.

I mean, dang. I'd take a "blind" character to get 3 feats that let me operate better in the dark than anyone else, and a free familiar that I can just see through at will. (of course, the familiar would never leave my shoulder but thats just me.)

-S

Congratulations, you've identified the central conceit of the Oracle class. As an Oracle's Curse progresses, it becomes less and less of a hindrance. By 15th level, it should be virtually no hindrance at all.

Myth and story are filled with examples of characters who have no physical sight, but who have alternate senses so acute that they are effectively not blind. Zatoichi, Daredevil, Toph, the Miraluka from Star Wars, a minor villain from Angel--these are characters PF should be able to emulate, especially when they have a class based around turning a negative into an overwhelming positive.

The Exchange

yeti1069 wrote:
Lincoln, did you have a blind oracle in a game you played in or ran? That snarky bit you posted looks like conjecture. If so, please stow it.

No, you're right. I didn't post it intending to be hurtful, just to point out some of the serious impediments to enjoying the concept once it's in play... but I concede that it was more caustic than I should be to somebody who's genuinely seeking advice. I apologize.

Honestly, the "clouded vision" oracle - I run one - seems to be Paizo's best stab at combining the "blind seer" concept with a character that's still mechanically functional. I'll admit I'm not thrilled with the mechanics used to represent "clouded vision", but if they'd obeyed the usual concealment rules for 'limited vision' it would have made bad vision the hands-down worst oracular curse, possibly leading to attempts to counteract it that would present their own issues.

Trouble is, either a 'blind seer' is blind (and that has balance problems), or the 'blind seer' can see anyway (which has plausibility issues and can even become unbalanced in the opposite direction.)

Dark Archive

Okay, not an oracle, and not Pathfinder, but...

I once played a blind samurai in a 2E D&D campaign. She had Blind Fighting and the DM let me also have the equivalent for firing arrows. Turns out that she was a VERY playable character who performed quite well and eventually rose to 8th level (from 1st) before the campaign died. All enemies were treated as though invisible to her.

One of my favorite memories in playing her was that I played blindfolded. I had to rely on the other players to describe the arrangement of the miniatures to me and to read my die rolls. You might consider this taking it a bit far, but it worked for me and really helped me get into the character

So, can it be done? Yes, absolutely.


I appreciate Lincoln's post. I thought it was more in response to all the people claiming, "ZOMG, look at all these benefits he gets for being blind! Why doesn't everybody just poke their eyes out for all this awesome swag?!"

Which has been angering me greatly at the sheer ignorance of just how bad the blind condition is to a PF character. To the point where I've held back from posting anymore. He accomplished with hilarious snark what I probably would have done with prodigious (censored out) swearing to much better explain why those claims are total bs.

I don't think the idea is stupid at all, OP. I really like it, actually. I even took the time and thought to put together a curse progression for it, I like it so much. What I don't like is people forgetting curse is supposed to be a net benefit and playing dumb about all the hardships the character will experience even with the benefits suggested by myself and others.

Sovereign Court

As a note I'm going to add in my personal opinion that if your going to hunt for ways of getting around being blind then your not really playing a blind character.

Kind of like the old joke about how Daredevil is a super hero is that he can see, a power most of us have. Over simplification of course.

If one was truly looking to play a blind character for fun or challenge they should be genuine about it and not attempt to get around the fact using magic, racial abilities, etc.

Blind Fight is probably as far as one attempting such a thing should go.

Contributor

90% of the suggestions that you've gotten amount to, "Be permanently blinded as a curse, get powers that make it suck less as you level up." That's sort of a bad way to design an ability because at that point, why take the option if the only power you get it making the penalties go away?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
90% of the suggestions that you've gotten amount to, "Be permanently blinded as a curse, get powers that make it suck less as you level up." That's sort of a bad way to design an ability because at that point, why take the option if the only power you get it making the penalties go away?

So I take it you also hate the deaf curse?

Because that's exactly how it works.


Revan wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I promised myself yesterday I wouldn't come back to this thread.. but.. I lied, to myself.. :(

So you get 3 feats and get to see through your familiar- as well as all of the benefits of having a familiar?

Where does being blind come in? This guy isn't blind- he just has a furry (or scaly or mechanical or whatever) pair of eyes sitting on his shoulder that gets to use wands and such.

I mean, dang. I'd take a "blind" character to get 3 feats that let me operate better in the dark than anyone else, and a free familiar that I can just see through at will. (of course, the familiar would never leave my shoulder but thats just me.)

-S

Congratulations, you've identified the central conceit of the Oracle class. As an Oracle's Curse progresses, it becomes less and less of a hindrance. By 15th level, it should be virtually no hindrance at all.

Myth and story are filled with examples of characters who have no physical sight, but who have alternate senses so acute that they are effectively not blind. Zatoichi, Daredevil, Toph, the Miraluka from Star Wars, a minor villain from Angel--these are characters PF should be able to emulate, especially when they have a class based around turning a negative into an overwhelming positive.

The post I quoted wasn't talking about some "15 level progression."

It said give them 3 feats and a familiar to see through at will.

If its some progression, then that should have been stated. Getting a feat every 2-3 levels with a familiar attained at level 12 or 14 or something that you can see though- I'd be fine with.
(I still wouldn't invite him along on an adventure, but thats a different question).

If a guy sat down at the table and said "I want to be blind, Can I have these three feats so I can be better at everyone else in the dark, and can I have a full fledged familiar and see through his eyes so I'm not really blind" then I'd do a double if not triple take if the DM said "Sure, that sounds fair!".

-S


WhtKnt wrote:


One of my favorite memories in playing her was that I played blindfolded. I had to rely on the other players to describe the arrangement of the miniatures to me and to read my die rolls. You might consider this taking it a bit far, but it worked for me and really helped me get into the character

So, can it be done? Yes, absolutely.

HEY JON how do you feel about having to play blindfolded?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
90% of the suggestions that you've gotten amount to, "Be permanently blinded as a curse, get powers that make it suck less as you level up." That's sort of a bad way to design an ability because at that point, why take the option if the only power you get it making the penalties go away?

Well, StreamOfTheSky's proposal isn't just about negating the penalties--after-all, blindsense, blindsight, Blind-Fight, Uncanny Dodge, and tremorsense are all abilities/feats that players would like normally, and have some unique applications.

Dark Archive

yeti1069 wrote:
HEY JON how do you feel about having to play blindfolded?

I won't lie; it had both a good and bad side. I should point out that it was entirely my decision to do so; the GM and other players had no say in it. I did it to better get a feel for the character.

It was fun in that it really gave me an appreciation for what it was like to be blind. As I said, I had the other players read the dice for me and describe the position of the miniatures to me. There was a definite sense of dependence on them.

On the downside, they couldn't help but pull a few pranks on me, like blocking the straw I was drinking from, or sticking a pencil in my straw (eraser up).


Seems more like looking for roleplaying opportunity than trying to break the system mechanically. When I think about playing a blind character, I always think of the Miraluka from Star Wars Saga Edition. They had the ability to "see" through the Force even though they were born without eyes.

Why not say the character is blind but can "see" through magic (out to 30 feet), which grants him the normal visual accuity of someone with darkvision, but he is immune to sight-based attacks (gaze, flare, whatnot) and cannot read or automatically fails sight-based checks in regard to reading, colors, or other roleplaying funtimes? At higher levels this range increases and ultimately he can even see those that would normally be hidden from him. Invisibility and illusions would still work on him since they are made of magic and would thus appear "real" to him until he gets high enough level to detect them as fake with blindsense and stuff.

Just an idea. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Grand Lodge

Pheoran Armiez wrote:

Seems more like looking for roleplaying opportunity than trying to break the system mechanically. When I think about playing a blind character, I always think of the Miraluka from Star Wars Saga Edition. They had the ability to "see" through the Force even though they were born without eyes.

Why not say the character is blind but can "see" through magic (out to 30 feet), which grants him the normal visual accuity of someone with darkvision, but he is immune to sight-based attacks (gaze, flare, whatnot) and cannot read or automatically fails sight-based checks in regard to reading, colors, or other roleplaying funtimes? At higher levels this range increases and ultimately he can even see those that would normally be hidden from him. Invisibility and illusions would still work on him since they are made of magic and would thus appear "real" to him until he gets high enough level to detect them as fake with blindsense and stuff.

Just an idea. No need to reinvent the wheel.

That's an ability that really should come with a cost.


LazarX wrote:
Pheoran Armiez wrote:
Seems more like... blah, blah, blah... I'm long winded...
That's an ability that really should come with a cost.

As I see it you are gaining:

* Immunity to gaze attacks (limited number of monsters or classes that actually have gaze attacks)
* Immunity to sight-based effects (phantasms, patterns, some bardic abilities, a fairly decent sized list)

In return you are giving up:
* Visual Range (limited to 30 feet/60 feet)
* Read Language (except brail)
* Beneficial sight-based effects

If it is based on the curse, none of these abilities should be able to be overcome with magic. Since the character wouldn't gain the ability to automatically detect enemies and must make Perception checks like everybody else, I don't see there being a huge gap in power levels here.

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