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I think you underestimate how dangerous a trap that simply reported different characters to several random locations would be. Rule #1 - Don't split the party. The teleport trap does just that.That is a nasty trap... but it's also adding DM overload. Don't split the party isn't just a player saying.
Indeed. Splitting the party isn't just bad because it makes PCs more vulnerable; it also leads to huge GMing headaches since you're now trying to more-or-less run two (or more) mini-parties simultaneously. Not to mention all that problems that can crop up when you have players sitting around bored, waiting for their turn to play the game.
Again, which of those two categories would a trap that teleports the party to different parts of the dungeon be?
In the "half the party is removed from play for a while, go to buy some pizza" cattegory. Which is a cattegory by itself.
However, I'll just concede that *some* traps might be interesting. I've pointed out to some examples (like the wall-crushing garbage smasher in Star Wars). My point is, however, that 99.999999% of the traps showed in the DMG and in regular Pathfinder AP are boring, binary, and suck.
Anyways, monsters that do nothing but damage also fall into your category (b): a series of die rolls, you either die or don't. Monsters are boring unless they can do something other than pure damage. Traps are boring unless they can do something other than pure damage.
I bolded the relevant part.
Here is the difference between a Javelin Trap, and an orc throwing Javelins:
The Javelin trap makes a single dice roll (either a REf Save, or a to Hit roll, or whatever). Then it rolls it's damage. Does it does enough damage to kill you? If no (including for example failing the attack) then case a). If yes, then case b). It's binary. It kills, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, then it's irrelevant.
The orc, however, works different. The orc does a serie of die rolls. If the orc fails it first attack, it still can do a second one in the following round. If it hits, and do some damage but not enough to kill you, he can do damage again in the next round. So he is a *persistent* threat, that you *have* to deal with. He can even *react* to what the group does (if you come close and he can't throw javelins without AOO, he can melee, or withdraw. If you run to the previous room, he can follow you, or go to set the alarm. The trap is (or 99.999999% of them are) immobile, inanimated, and unable to react. The 99.999999% of the traps showed in the DMG and in Pathfinder AP are also non-persistent (they shoot once, either you die, or you don't. At best, they re-arm themselves again, but unless you are steping on it again, it won't attack you anymore)
Huh, I've never heard that, I and everyone I've met have always played that "continuing to disable the trap" requires another roll each round
If that were the case, traps would be ludicrously hard to disarm with disable device, with 2d4 rounds on average, that's SEVEN succesful high DC rolls. In any case, even if it were so, reducing your whole turn to "I roll 34 in disable device" isn't fun for a big majority of players I know (by big majority I mean every player I know). There is a HUGE different in player involvement between having a move action, finding a tactical spot to move, deciding which spell/power/feat to use, rolling attack, confirm crits, rolling damage, and see the enemy down, and "I got 34 in disable device, this is the 4th round in row, 3 more to go"
Yep, don't teleport them to opposite sides of the dungeon. Teleport them far enough away so that they end up in separate encounters, but can reunite very quickly afterwords.
Or, alternatively, don't teleport them to different encounters: teleport whoever triggers the trap across the room, to a tactically inferior position in the same encounter.
Why on hell would the designer of a trap based on teleport make it so the target of the trap goes to the other side of the room?
I mean... other than because he want to be considerate with an unknown entity called "player" that controls the fate of the target of such trap.
Another use of the teleport trap is to move the whole party to a different part of the dungeon .
This works very well if they are unaware of it happening, I've used this to great effect in one game where the party entered a room and searched it one of the players set off the trap which appeared to cause the door to be sealed with a stone slab.
The party where when able to find the mechanism to open the door again only to find that the corridor that they used to enter the room was completely different , and they now had to be more cautious as they had know idea where they where or where any of the corridors or doorways lead or what was waiting for them
hat's not really any different--one of them is decided by pure luck, the other one is also decided by pure luck (whether he lands more of his full attacks than you land of your full attacks). The second one just takes more RL time to resolve.
In no way. The first one is decided by pure luck, the second one is decided by a whole lot of factors, including TACTICS. The fact you flank or not, if your group expend the memorized haste spell or save it for later, if you use your Enlarge Person Potion, choosing between move and cleave or ready an action... those are DECISIONS that the players do. The trap is just a reflex save.
Besides, traps can automatically reset and keep firing.
Traps that DON'T automatically reset are like scrolls. A monster can read a scroll of fireball and that functions the same as a single-use damaging trap. Does that mean enemies with scrolls are all boring? For that matter,
A monster with a scroll, and NOTHING ELSE, yes, it's boring. As much as a trap. A fireball trap that shoots a single fireball and then goes off is just as stupid encounter as an unarmed orc with no other spell that reads a fireball scroll and then surrender.
I don't use orcs with a single fireball scroll that surrender after reading it in my games, because I find them boring, in case you were wondering. I don't use orcs with a single javelin that surrender after shooting it either
Actually, a vast majority of the traps in the PF CRB are magic traps, since it defines a "magic trap" as a single-time-activated spell, and there are far more spells in core than their are mechanical traps. A single-time trap function in combat pretty much exactly the same as an enemy with a scroll. Would you say that 99.99999% of npcs who use have scrolls are made less interesting on account of having scrolls?
If the NPC is unarmed, and have absolutely nothing else than a single scroll, and he reads it and immediatelly surrender, yes they are not interesting.
Moving the goalpost. And double standard. You are no longer talking about a "simple" monster. You are talking about a monster with multiple distinct attacks, and should compare it to a trap with multiple distinct attacks.
I'm not. The point is, EVERY MONSTER has multiple distinct attacks by default. At the very least, he can use an improvised weapon, or use the aid another to give a bonus to other monster, or flank, and press the ranged guys with AOO threat. Most monsters can move. Traps are simple, inanimated objects by default. They don't think, they don't react, they don't have any other option than their default attack. That's the diference between a CR2 Javelin Trap and a CR2 Fighter 3 with javelins. The fighter is a living person with a brain, two hands, and feet, and he can move, react, think, and keep attacking. And thus, it makes for a much more entertaining encounter by itself than the same CR javelin trap.
But the alarm is a trap, so you needed to use a trap to prove that traps weren't interesting.
Just moving back where their mates are and shouting "good guys are here" work. I don't know why are you supposing he need a trap for that.
But a fighter DOESN'T have a move action, finding a tactical spot to move, deciding which spell/power/feat to use. They just have "I full attack. Again. For the fourth round in a row."
FAlse. He can use maneuvers (like trip), he can select which feats he use (like cleave), he HAS a move action (not every fight starts at 5'), and he has tactical options to make. Like position himself between the monsters and the casters, or go chase some ranged monsters, set a flanking position for the rogue, etc. Even if he is just full attacking, (which is not true in half the rounds, because you have to move. Otherwise Pounce wouldn't be so good), it's more involving than disabling a trap. You roll to attack, confirm crits, roll damage. In disabling a trap, you roll a dice, that's all. And actually, with the current rules, you roll a dice ONCE, then skip your next 2d4 rounds.
Go find someone else and play a game of chess. Except, your opponent is allowed, at any time on their turn, to pick up one of your pieces and teleport it to any unoccupied space on the board. If your opponent has any level of competence with strategy whatsoever, they will crush you, because positioning is the most important part of strategy in chess.
Are you back? Did you win? Do you see why you'd want to be able to teleport intruders to a desired location?
Assuming, of course, that the monsters in the room know where the teleporter trap is and where it comes out, and can take it into account in their strategy. Teleport an unsuspecting player into a mob of melee monsters? Get some of the PCs out of range of the healer? You don't think the builder would want to do that to their enemies?
I did. But the guy who played with me was way smarter than your example. Instead of teleporting my Queen to an empty place in the board, he teleported it to a locked case inside a safety box in the cellar of his manor in Oklahoma. It was damn more effective than putting it a few squares to the left. The builder of those weak traps that teleport people inside the same room, instead of teleporting them to a locked cell in another level of the dungeon, could talk with my chess oponent and learn a few things. Unless, of course, he is doing that just because he is considerate with the unknown entity known as Player.
I'd say when it comes to verisimilitude, you're better off going for mechanical traps for encounter-splitting. Moving walls and pit traps work just as well for that purpose.
Wow. This thread is now old...I feel like I'm using a raise dead spell, lol.
Ok I was thinking about how you can improve traps, which made me think of this old thread. What I was thinking was, how about role-playing the disarm in such a way that different characters have to be involved.
For example, The Rogue spots a trap (succeeds his perception with trapfinding). He rolls Disable device: a success!
But that just tells him how it can be disarmed, not necessarily allowing him to disarm it. Say the control panel is located 8' below (5' if the Rogue is a halfling or gnome) the lip of the path they are on, over a deep drop (100' or more}. There are no handy footholds, but a strong character can hold the Rogue's feet and lower him into position: Now the Fighter is involved, and there is a time element as the Rogue has to disarm the controls before too much blood rushes to his head.
What if his Disable device tells him that there is a magical conduit that needs to be disrupted with a spell; step forward the wizard. What if it's a channeling device? call on the Cleric.
Put several such elements together and you have a fun trap that involves everyone. Add a simple attack at the same time (A flying creature attacks while the Fighter is holding the Rogue; The Fighter can't fight, The Rogue can't Foght, step forward the cleric and wizard...Everyone is involved, and everyone is doing something outside of their normal role, making an interesting and unique encounter).
Another way of doing this is to provide a turret trap. It's programmed to fire only upon enemies, and has already been triggered by the bad guys; disarming it involves dodging it's attacks until you are close enough to get under it; "grappling" it until you can get a purchase on it's surface then climbing inside to finally disarm it (or if you get a high enough roll, flipping it so that it views it's former allies as enemies and vice-versa; now it can be used to attack the bad guys). Now the Rogue is rewarded for success with an ability to do significant damage to the bad guys (or maybe he can put it on "manual" and pilot it himself).
By involving more than just a die roll to determine success, you can create a stimulating and varied encounter, as well as giving players a good reason to invest in some lesser used skills since they never know when they might need linguistics (to decipher the hieroglyphics used), climbingh (to get to the access hatch) swimming (in case the control panel is underwater) various knowledge skills, etc.
I know this has been touched on in the rest of this thread, but I don't think it has been spelled out. maybe The Fighter has a few points in knowledge (engineering); this would tell him some things to look for. maybe knowledge (arcane) is called for, or use magical device; The Rogue can't get all these skills, so others will have to contribute.
The point is to get everyone involved in some way, so that it becomes a "party thing" rather than a "rogue thing", In the same way that combat is a "party thing", not a "Fighter thing". When everone is contributing, everyone will enjoy it.
If solving the trap is too convolutod and time consuming, it becomes easier and more fun to send a summoned celestial pony to set it off then walk by.