Can a prepared caster UMD a Ring of Spell Knowledge to get a spell not on his list?
Ring of Spell Knowledge
Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Use Magic Device
Is the italics line able to be bypassed with UMD? If so, the rest of it reads like a prepared caster could use it.
Thanks
Technically, the prepared caster could activate the ring to access its abilities, but since he isn't a spontaneous spellcaster (and has no spontaneous spell slots) it would be worthless for him.
EDIT: Though now that I think of it, maybe a wizard with a bonded object could use it...
Technically, the prepared caster could activate the ring to access its abilities, but since he isn't a spontaneous spellcaster (and has no spontaneous spell slots) it would be worthless for him.
I'm not sure about that. The line "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list." Makes me think otherwise. If it appears on the class spell list, of say a cleric who praying for daily spells, she can then prepare it.
I don't think they can.
Prep'd casters can't cast it without prepping the spell first and the ring doesn't let them prep it, just cast it.
Without the ability to prepare the spell the ring is worthless for prepared casters and the ring just doesn't have that listed as an option.
At least, thats my .02
-S
Wouldn't the line about adding them to her spell list mean that she could prepare them.
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
My main concern is the "All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters" line. I am wondering if this wording trumps UMD or if this the the type of thing UMD is intended to get around. Admittedly I haven't used this skill for anything but wands in the past, so my experience with it is limited.
To me, the ring isn't terribly UMD friendly.
UMD is for activating items you can't normally activate.
This ring doesn't have an activation- it has a permanent function. This makes it somewhat difficult to adjudicate. Still though I'd follow the strict language on the item.
It doesn't let you prepare anything it lets you cast it. The ability to cast isn't the ability to prepare.
(likewise, if the ring let you prepare a spell you didn't have then it wouldn't do a sorc anygood to UMD it because they don't prepare spells.)
Is it reading the item very very narrowly? Yes it is.
But UMD does exactly what it says it does and this ring doesn't really fit into that formula, so I'm OK with saying UMD doesn't work well with it.
If instead you had a ring that cast X spell 3/day if you have that spell on your class list then I think you could UMD to emulate having the spell on your list and then cast the spell from it. But as it stands, all the ring does is let you cast it from your own spont. spell slots, and prep'd casters don't have any.
-S
To me, the ring isn't terribly UMD friendly.
UMD is for activating items you can't normally activate.
This ring doesn't have an activation- it has a permanent function. This makes it somewhat difficult to adjudicate. Still though I'd follow the strict language on the item.It doesn't let you prepare anything it lets you cast it. The ability to cast isn't the ability to prepare.
(likewise, if the ring let you prepare a spell you didn't have then it wouldn't do a sorc anygood to UMD it because they don't prepare spells.)
Is it reading the item very very narrowly? Yes it is.
But UMD does exactly what it says it does and this ring doesn't really fit into that formula, so I'm OK with saying UMD doesn't work well with it.If instead you had a ring that cast X spell 3/day if you have that spell on your class list then I think you could UMD to emulate having the spell on your list and then cast the spell from it. But as it stands, all the ring does is let you cast it from your own spont. spell slots, and prep'd casters don't have any.
-S
Part of its function is to add it to your spell list. If it is on your spell list, why can't you prepare it?
It doesn't say that.
It says
Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
You can cast it as though you knew it and as though it appeared on their list.
It doesn't say you can prepare it. It says you can cast it. You can't cast it without preparing it and without being able to prepare it a prep'd caster has no use for the ring.
"You can cast it as though the spell is on your class spell list" is not the same as "this spell is treated as though it is on your class spell list."
You can cast it. But you can't prepare it.
The ring is worthless for preppies.
-S
@selgard
Could a wizard use it to cast out of a bonded object though?
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
Not unless he found a way to get it into his spellbook.
-S
If it said "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may spontaneously cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list." I would definitely agree with you. You may be right, but I think you are also taking information from early in the paragraph to make that assumption. It is that earlier information, specifically, "All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters." That I think this combo hinges on.
The fact there are lines like "A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list. A witch must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time." and "A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time." and "A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list....A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance." Makes me think our current concern should not break it.
Using a Cleric in the following example:
Thereafter an arcane spellcaster (CHECK, possibly with UMD or Spell-like ability; this was my real question) may cast the spell as though she knew the spell (IRRELEVANT) and it appeared on her class' spell list (CHECK).
A cleric casts her spells by praying and preparing first, I am still seeing nothing that precludes this method by that line alone. If she can cast it, she can prepare it.
Actually the more I look the more I may agree with you. I expected it to be easy to find language like "cast X as if it were on its spell list." but that phrase seems to be missing. PF does seem very careful about their separate use of the words prepare and cast.....unfortunate.
I may be being too picky, I dunno.
It certainly doesn't seem to fail the "is it over powered" test.
I mean- if its not OP for a sorc with their tons of slots how can it be Op for a wizard with a few slots?
Same with oracle vs cleric or whatnot?
So I dunno. I don't think it works but I wouldn't argue vehemently against it either way.
-S
So suppose you are an Oracle, can you UMD it or put it on your Oracle list if you spontaneously cast arcane spells via race traits?
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Part of its function is to add it to your spell list. If it is on your spell list, why can't you prepare it?
Let's assume you are right and it works that way. If you're a prep caster, the spell is now on your list. Then you cast it once.
At that point you forget it.Then what? It's not in your spellbook, so you can't re-memorize it. It's gone. So even at best, it's a one use item, or you have to wear and keep an open spell slot for the spell in case you need it.
Secondly, if a prep caster could use this ring to cast the spontaneous version of a spell, then why not let divine casters use it as well? If we're going to let people cast spells they normally cannot, then there is no logical reason to limit it to one group.
Finally, it's just not a viable choice compared to others. A scroll would be a lot better and cheaper. Use the scroll to copy the spell into your spellbook, and now you have it. If a player wants to use it, I'd advise giving it to another player or selling it.
I hazard to guess UMD would apply to spell-completion items, but not something like this that plants a spell in your brain.
Well you still don't have arcane spell slots to cast from, so no it wouldn't let you. This is not an "any tool" item with enough umd...I would like it to be, but it isn't.
What part says you need an arcane spell slot? There are several spells that appear on multiple lists.
Part of its function is to add it to your spell list. If it is on your spell list, why can't you prepare it?
Let's assume you are right and it works that way. If you're a prep caster, the spell is now on your list. Then you cast it once.
At that point you forget it.
Then what? It's not in your spellbook, so you can't re-memorize it. It's gone. So even at best, it's a one use item, or you have to wear and keep an open spell slot for the spell in case you need it.Secondly, if a prep caster could use this ring to cast the spontaneous version of a spell, then why not let divine casters use it as well? If we're going to let people cast spells they normally cannot, then there is no logical reason to limit it to one group.
Finally, it's just not a viable choice compared to others. A scroll would be a lot better and cheaper. Use the scroll to copy the spell into your spellbook, and now you have it. If a player wants to use it, I'd advise giving it to another player or selling it.
I hazard to guess UMD would apply to spell-completion items, but not something like this that plants a spell in your brain.
In most cases there are much easier ways to cast a spell. I felt the limitations quite capricious also, hence why I have been trying to work around it.
You are again confusing things like an above poster....spells known does NOT mean spell book or "from the list of all spells of the x divine class".
What exactly is the difference between "as if it appeared on her spell list" and "from the list of all spells of the x divine class"?
"Hop on Pop" and " and "Jump on Dad" have different wording but as far as I can tell they mean as much the same thing as the two previously quoted lines.
It is you that is inserting something that isn't there. If the line like "it is only useable to spontaneous casters" can't be bypassed with UMD, I am cool with that, that is what I came here to ask. I have even come to terms with the fact that it being able to cast it like it was on your spell list may not mean you can prepare it like it was on your spell list, but inserting extra rules about arcane slots is clearly not supported by functional reading of the item or the magic section of the CRB.