spellslinger? no PFS booo

[neferphras]

i just took a look at the spellslinger archetype and it looks like a blast (pun intended). Why is this not PFS legal? Its cool yes, but nowhere near as powerful as the scenario ending power class like say a Witch ( i have seen the s;eep hex end 5 scenarios now.) So why is this one an issue i dont get it.

[Michael Sayre]

They want to keep guns super rare in PFS play, so you'll notice that none of the firearm wielding archetypes for classes other than the Gunslinger are legal for PFS play. No Musketeers or Holy Guns either.

[Nefreet]

I felt the same way about Holy Gun when I wanted to make a gunslinging paladin, so I just made a Paladin/Gunslinger instead. Perhaps look at making a Wizard/Gunslinger?

[Nefreet]

Or, even closer, a Magus/Gunslinger.

[neferphras]

Ssalarn wrote:

They want to keep guns super rare in PFS play, so you'll notice that none of the firearm wielding archetypes for classes other than the Gunslinger are legal for PFS play. No Musketeers or Holy Guns either.

I read the same in another thread. What an insane statement, and i know its not you. But if that was the goal... one word FAIL... i will add EPIC FAIL. I have only been playing for 8 months now but in that 8 months 30 ish scenarios, i have only not a gunslinger in my group 2 times. Gunslingers are the norm now and if that was the goal they have to realize it failed and they need to get over this line of reasoning because it did not work. allow the archetypes, any pretense to restricting gun use has no basis in the reality of player actions to date. Nice idea in 2012, but it did not work.

[Michael Sayre]

Yeah, the whole firearm mechanic is so different, and in some ways superior in PFS play, that there are quite a few of them regardless. I could see them also citing wealth tabulation issues, I know when Gunslingers were becoming popular it was incredibly commonplace to see players and GM's both failing to properly calculate the cost of all those bullets. I think it's been around long enough that they could probably crack those restrictions open a bit and allow in a few more archetypes, but whatchya gonna do?

[neferphras]

Ssalarn.... hopefully get the heads of PFS to read this thread... :-)

Nefreet
holy gun is cool
Spellslinger is cool

neither an anywhere close to the power of say.. a Witch. So not seeing why (other than the failed reasoning noted above) they are restricted.

[Nefreet]

It has nothing to do with power. Gunslingers aren't really any more powerful than any other martial. When you enforce their ammunition costs and take into account their misfire rates, they fall in line real quick.

Guns just aren't that widely encountered in Golarion.

[Cerberus Seven]

Well...that depends, Nefreet. Are we talking gunslinger with early firearms, or gunslingers with ADVANCED firearms? Because holy mother of god, the latter is powerful. If you're playing WBL right out of the CRB, there's no way a comparably equipped (money-wise) fighter is going to be doing the same damage as a revolver wielding gunslinger. The touch attacks out to several hundred feet, the massive critical hit damage, the gun training to boost damage, the deeds for huge versatility, oi! If our next campaign weren't Reign of Winter, where encountering advanced firearms everywhere is eventually mandatory, I'm pretty sure our current group would never okay that tech level / class combo again.

[SCPRedMage]

How frequently players choose to play a gunslinger is not related to how rare they're supposed to be in Golarion.

The point is that guns are supposed to be rare enough that these archetypes just don't exist, because these classes haven't been exposed to firearms enough for these variants to have been created in this setting.

[Nefreet]

^ this.

[neferphras]

SCPRedMage wrote:

How frequently players choose to play a gunslinger is not related to how rare they're supposed to be in Golarion.

The point is that guns are supposed to be rare enough that these archetypes just don't exist, because these classes haven't been exposed to firearms enough for these variants to have been created in this setting.

RedMage,

I hear you, but people are just playing Gun/alchemists, or Gun Quistors, or Gun/Magus.... so what is the point of this really. I get why it was done originally. But if the players are part of the plot it makes no sense anymore because the affect is already out there.

[Sammy T]

Just because something is common in your area does not mean it is common across PFS tables as a whole.

[Rei]

Common in PFS in actuality =/= common in PFS in terms of lore.

There are probably more aasimar and tiefling PCs in PFS than there are in lore Golarion in total.

[neferphras]

Sammy T wrote:

Just because something is common in your area does not mean it is common across PFS tables as a whole.

While that is true, when i have said there are tons of gunslingers out there no one has stood up and said not in my area. That is one of the reasons i brought it up that way, to see if it was only my area. No one said otherwise, or even suggested otherwise until now, so i am thinking its very much the common state of affairs. When you think about it, logic would follow that being true because range touch is simply better than trying to hit normal AC. It simulates history pretty well, I have to give it that, guns replaced bows... that happened. For that not to happen in a fantasy games bows have to retain some advantage that compensates for the dramatic advantage that is range touch. Right now bows dont really have anything that counterbalance the range touch uber advantage, hopefully adding the alchemical arrows will fix that, or at least level it out. It will certainly make it more fun :-)

[redward]

1) There aren't tons of gunslingers in our area. I've seen a handful in the past year and a half.

2) I will again say that I have never seen anything out-damage an optimized archer--not gunslingers, not melee.

Archers require no Feats or special ammunition to make full attacks, and they can make those full attacks within the range of nearly every PFS map. They can use those freed up Feats to pursue other benefits, like Improved Critical.

Archers benefit from composite bows, manyshot and gravity bow.

Archers suffer no chance of misfire.

The bow itself is ~1000gp cheaper than the cheapest firearm, its ammunition even more economical, allowing archers to spend more on other items and consumables than an equivalent gunslinger.

Fighter archers get Weapon Training. Rangers get Favored Enemy. Zen Archers flurry and Perfect Strike and a whole pile of other abilities.

You can make arguments for why items that help archers should be legalized, but if it's to close some perceived "gap" between them and gunslingers, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

And I'm not saying gunslingers aren't good at dealing damage. I'm just saying that archers are already better.

[neferphras]

redward wrote:

1) There aren't tons of gunslingers in our area. I've seen a handful in the past year and a half.

2) I will again say that I have never seen anything out-damage an optimized archer--not gunslingers, not melee.

Archers require no Feats or special ammunition to make full attacks, and they can make those full attacks within the range of nearly every PFS map. They can use those freed up Feats to pursue other benefits, like Improved Critical.

Archers benefit from composite bows, manyshot and gravity bow.

Archers suffer no chance of misfire.

The bow itself is ~1000gp cheaper than the cheapest firearm, its ammunition even more economical, allowing archers to spend more on other items and consumables than an equivalent gunslinger.

Fighter archers get Weapon Training. Rangers get Favored Enemy. Zen Archers flurry and Perfect Strike and a whole pile of other abilities.

You can make arguments for why items that help archers should be legalized, but if it's to close some perceived "gap" between them and gunslingers, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

And I'm not saying gunslingers aren't good at dealing damage. I'm just saying that archers are already better.

Good to hear you are not swarmed, again i was wondering if it was just my area. its all about the too hit. You can do all the damage you want but when you miss 40% more??? thats the thing. Also Guns already had fancy alchemy rounds, bows didnt, which really made no sense at all.

[SCPRedMage]

neferphras wrote:

RedMage,

I hear you, but people are just playing Gun/alchemists, or Gun Quistors, or Gun/Magus.... so what is the point of this really. I get why it was done originally. But if the players are part of the plot it makes no sense anymore because the affect is already out there.

Actually, they totally make sense. You have to use a character level to gain this training, and it doesn't integrate as well with the classes as the archetypes would.

By having to spend an entire level on gunslinger, you have to give up significantly more from your primary class than you would have to with the archetypes.

[Curaigh]

I have only seen one gunslinger in four years. It was at a Con, so I dinnae know from where he originally hailed.

[Natertot]

neferphras wrote:

Sammy T wrote:

Just because something is common in your area does not mean it is common across PFS tables as a whole.

While that is true, when i have said there are tons of gunslingers out there no one has stood up and said not in my area. That is one of the reasons i brought it up that way, to see if it was only my area. No one said otherwise, or even suggested otherwise until now, so i am thinking its very much the common state of affairs. When you think about it, logic would follow that being true because range touch is simply better than trying to hit normal AC. It simulates history pretty well, I have to give it that, guns replaced bows... that happened. For that not to happen in a fantasy games bows have to retain some advantage that compensates for the dramatic advantage that is range touch. Right now bows dont really have anything that counterbalance the range touch uber advantage, hopefully adding the alchemical arrows will fix that, or at least level it out. It will certainly make it more fun :-)

In the NY/NJ area there are a few gunslinger characters. Some of them are multi-classed, but I don't think they make up more than their fair share of the representative sample of character types out there.

Nathan Meyers
NYC PFS GM/Player

[Nefreet]

neferphras, I suggest you make a Gunslinger yourself, and level it up to 12. You will find that in actuality, it is not as gamebreaking as you believe. Mine will be level 11 after her next game, and she's had her fair share of shining moments and failures, just like any other character. Targeting touch AC is great, I'll give you that, but it's balanced by their short range and chance of misfire.

[thistledown]

redward wrote:

1) There aren't tons of gunslingers in our area. I've seen a handful in the past year and a half.

2) I will again say that I have never seen anything out-damage an optimized archer--not gunslingers, not melee.

Archers require no Feats or special ammunition to make full attacks, and they can make those full attacks within the range of nearly every PFS map. They can use those freed up Feats to pursue other benefits, like Improved Critical.

Archers benefit from composite bows, manyshot and gravity bow.

Archers suffer no chance of misfire.

The bow itself is ~1000gp cheaper than the cheapest firearm, its ammunition even more economical, allowing archers to spend more on other items and consumables than an equivalent gunslinger.

Fighter archers get Weapon Training. Rangers get Favored Enemy. Zen Archers flurry and Perfect Strike and a whole pile of other abilities.

You can make arguments for why items that help archers should be legalized, but if it's to close some perceived "gap" between them and gunslingers, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

And I'm not saying gunslingers aren't good at dealing damage. I'm just saying that archers are already better.

Don't forget Efficient Quiver and both Bracers of Archery are for bows only.

Going into spells, Gravity Bow, arrow eruption, Venomous Bolt, and Bow Spirit at least pick up crossbows, but Ki Arrow doesn't.

Plenty of spells to mess with someone's gun, but not much to improve it. Stabilize powder's a start, but it's only for one shot, and needs to be cast from pretty high level to be guaranteed. Named Bullet is the only real one to use.

Wind Wall at least has the opposite problem. Arrows and bolts auto-miss, but guns and slings have only a 30% miss chance.

[Disk Elemental]

redward wrote:

I will again say that I have never seen anything out-damage an optimized archer--not gunslingers, not melee.

In an ideal scenario where every shot hits, then yes, the archer out damages the gunslinger. However, when the BBEG has an AC of 27, and a touch of 8, well... there's something to be said for hitting on 2s and 3s.

[TriOmegaZero]

I can only recall seeing two or three gunslingers across Houston, Columbus OH, and Phoenix. And while those we nice, my wife's archer Fighter is much more consistent.

[Nefreet]

I believe my Musket Master and one other are the only consistently played Gunslinger characters in our area. People talk about making a Mysterious Stranger all the time, but it's a terrible archetype and nobody has "pulled the trigger" yet. I've seen two other Gunslingers, I believe they were Pistoleros, but that was months ago. And our Friday nights can get upwards of some 30 people, so we're not a tiny operation.

[henwy]

I've just started playing here in jersey and at cons and local games I've probably played with around 35-40 pathfinder chars so far....I've been the only gunslinger. 2 Zen Archers though.

IF you add online games, another 25 people or so...no gunslingers other than mine. Another 2 zen archer though.

[SlimGauge]

Granted, I haven't played PFS all that much, but the only Gunslinger I've seen was the pre-gen that I took in First Steps just to try out a gunslinger.

[kinevon]

In my local area, I have seen the Gunslinger pregen used a couple of times at first level, and I have a Gunslinger, currently 4th level, who I haven't played in a long time.

Online, I have seen one or tweo other Gunslingers, but the main one I saw was a Magus (Myrmidarch)/Gunslinger, which is truly ugly, with spells cast through bullets and a scatter gun. And most of the damage came from the spells, not the gun.

By the time you see enemies consistently with 27 ACs, you are also going to see that archer PC with a to hit somewhere where he is going to be hitting fairly consistently, unless the dice gods turn sour.

And, to be honest, while Gunslingers get to attack that lower touch AC, it is from much closer range, in general, than the Wizard/Sorcerer can do it, and the W/S is going to be doing a lot more damage when he hits, if he even uses something that requires a to hit roll.

[neferphras]

ok so talked to 3 gunslingers last night (out of 15 players 3 were gunslingers sigh) its the Gunsmithing feat they get for free +1 level of alchemy. So 10% of list cost (90% off)all normal ammo half off all alchemy cartridges. So paper bullet 1.2 gold. Silver 2.5 (2gp and -1 damage for bow) Adamantine 6.1 (60 for a bow)
Pitted is .5
Flare is 5 (nice for a blind or dazzle affect)
Think i have to stick with they have no right to complain about ammo (additional resources thread)
If they are missing something on the math let me know.

[neferphras]

Side note, a maxed zen archer took out the bad guy just about solo in the table that did not have a gun slinger. Never said zen archers were not cool but thought i would put that out there.

[Nefreet]

Your prices seem off. A paper cartridge is 6gp, not 1.2gp. A pitted bullet should be more, too. Adamantine is indeed 6.1gp per bullet, but since cartridges are what you want an Adamantine paper cartridge is like 36gp.

[Nefreet]

Perhaps there are so many Gunslingers in your area because the rules are not being enforced correctly.

If you search in either this forum or the Rules Forum you can find a comprehensive list of gun ammunition prices.

Also be sure the Gunslingers in your area, or at least the GMs, are familiar with the misfire rules. Other than pricing out ammunition that is the biggest holdback for playing a Gunslinger. Your more shots you fire, the higher chance of misfiring and losing a round.

[trollbill]

Nefreet wrote:

Perhaps there are so many Gunslingers in your area because the rules are not being enforced correctly.

If you search in either this forum or the Rules Forum you can find a comprehensive list of gun ammunition prices.

Also be sure the Gunslingers in your area, or at least the GMs, are familiar with the misfire rules. Other than pricing out ammunition that is the biggest holdback for playing a Gunslinger. Your more shots you fire, the higher chance of misfiring and losing a round.

Speaking from personal experience, the misfire chance is a bigger hold back than the cash.

[neferphras]

Nefreet wrote:

Your prices seem off. A paper cartridge is 6gp, not 1.2gp. A pitted bullet should be more, too. Adamantine is indeed 6.1gp per bullet, but since cartridges are what you want an Adamantine paper cartridge is like 36gp.

you are correct on the paper did not realize that was alchemical so gave it the 10% cost not the half

pitted if 5gp normally and is not alchemaical so .5 is right
I was going off this link...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms

if there is a better chart out there whats the link?

how do you get to 36?
Paper charge 12*.5 =6
Adamanitine 61*.1 =6.1

12.1

[Jason Wu]

He added the two components together before the discount.

12 + 61 = 73 x 0.5 = 36.5

Arguable, since we apparently can only get the alchemical cartridges as an assembled unit, otherwise we could use weapon blanches on them and that is specifically not allowed.

-j

[neferphras]

Jason Wu wrote:

He added the two components together before the discount.

12 + 61 = 73 x 0.5 = 36.5

Arguable, since we apparently can only get the alchemical cartridges as an assembled unit, otherwise we could use weapon blanches on them and that is specifically not allowed.

-j

yeah but thats not how that works, the ammo and the charge are different costs. I see how he got there, but no ruling i can find states to work the math that way.

[thistledown]

Here's the full list for gunslingers. Hope it formats right for you.
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ammo chart:

Gunslinger Costs______________________________lead_____adamantine_____cold iron_____E. bronze_____Mithral_____alch silver_____blood crystal_____Viridium_____Ref. Viridum_____Fire/Frost-Forged
Alchemical cartridge (paper) (bullet or pellet)_______6_________36_____________12____________16_______14 1/3_________7____________21_____________16_____________26_____________13.5
Alchemical Cartridge (dragon's breath)____________20_________50_____________40___________30_______28 1/3_________21___________35_____________30_____________40_____________27.5
Alchemical cartridge (entangling shot)_____________20_________50_____________40__________30_______28 1/3_________21___________35_____________30_____________40_____________27.5
Alchemical cartridge (flare)______________________5_________35_____________10____________15_____ __13 1/3_________6____________20_____________15_____________25_____________12.5
Alchemical cartridge (salt shot)___________________6_________36_____________12____________16_______14 1/3_________7____________21_____________16_____________26_____________13.5
Bullet / Pellets________________________________0.1_________6.1___________0.2_______ ___2.1_______ 1/2_________0.3___________3.1_____________2.1___________4.1_____________1.6
Pitted bullet__________________________________0.5_________6.5_____________1______ ____2.5_________1__________0.7__________3.5_____________2.5___________4.5__ ___________2
Silver Blanched Bullet / Pellets__________________0.6_________6.6___________0.7____________2.6______ ___-___________-___________3.6_____________2.6___________4.6_____________2. 1
Cold Iron Blanched Bullet / Pellets_______________2.1_________8.1_____________-____________4.1_______2 1/2________2.3__________5.1_____________4.1___________6.1_____________3.6
Adamantine Blanched Bullet / Pellets_____________10.1_________-____________10.2__________12.1_______10 1/2_______10.3__________13.1___________12.1___________14.1____________11.6
Ghost Salt Blanched Bullet / Pellets______________20.1_________26.1_________20.2__________22.1_______20 1/2_______20.3__________23.1___________22.1___________24.1____________21.6
Silver Blanched Pitted bullet_____________________1_________7_____________1.5____________3________ ___-___________-_____________4_____________3_______________5_____________2. 5
Cold Iron Blanched Pitted bullet_________________2.5_________8.5_____________-____________4.5________ _3__________2.7__________5.5_____________4.5___________6.5_____________4
Adamantine Blanched Pitted bullet_______________10.5_________-______________11___________12.5_______11 _________10.7__________13.5___________12.5___________14.5____________12
Ghost Salt Blanched Pitted bullet________________20.5_________26.5___________21__________22.5_______21 _________20.7__________23.5___________22.5___________24.5____________22
Black powder (dose)____________________1
.
Weapon blanch costs are as divided across 10 pieces of ammo.

[Sniggevert]

neferphras wrote:

Jason Wu wrote:

He added the two components together before the discount.

12 + 61 = 73 x 0.5 = 36.5

Arguable, since we apparently can only get the alchemical cartridges as an assembled unit, otherwise we could use weapon blanches on them and that is specifically not allowed.

-j

yeah but thats not how that works, the ammo and the charge are different costs. I see how he got there, but no ruling i can find states to work the math that way.

The FAQ says to work the math that way.

[LazarX]

neferphras wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

They want to keep guns super rare in PFS play, so you'll notice that none of the firearm wielding archetypes for classes other than the Gunslinger are legal for PFS play. No Musketeers or Holy Guns either.

I read the same in another thread. What an insane statement, and i know its not you. But if that was the goal... one word FAIL... i will add EPIC FAIL. I have only been playing for 8 months now but in that 8 months 30 ish scenarios, i have only not a gunslinger in my group 2 times. Gunslingers are the norm now and if that was the goal they have to realize it failed and they need to get over this line of reasoning because it did not work. allow the archetypes, any pretense to restricting gun use has no basis in the reality of player actions to date. Nice idea in 2012, but it did not work.

You don't quite understand. It was not a goal to make gunslinger PLAYERS rare in PFS. It's to reflect that in the overall campaign world setting, firearms are a recent development, an emerging technology, and have not had the time for the progress and development that all those archetypes would imply.

[neferphras]

they really need to add an example using specialized ammunition like silver

How does purchasing/crafting special material alchemical cartridges work in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table on page 141 of Ultimate Equipment). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge.

i can completely see how people would get lost with this. The ammo is not alchemic, the cartridge is. Folks are definitely doing this wrong around here.

PS to admin, please add an example.

[neferphras]

thistledown wrote:

Here's the full list for gunslingers. Hope it formats right for you.

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** spoiler omitted **...

very cool printing that

[thistledown]

neferphras wrote:

thistledown wrote:

Here's the full list for gunslingers. Hope it formats right for you.

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** spoiler omitted **...

very cool printing that

You have no idea how hard it was to get the columns to line up. It's coming from excel, but I'll try and at least get a picture of a prettier version of it up later.

derivation:

30 bullets is listed as 1/2lb so, 0.017lb each. Black powder is 5lb for 100 doses, so 0.05lb each. Cartridge is listed at zero weight, but for calculations I used the sum of materials, so 0.067 lbs.
Mithral is 500gp/lb, but cuts the weight in half. 500/lb*0.033lb = 16.66gp extra on cartridges. 500/lb*0.008lb = 4.17 extra on bullets.
Cold Iron doubles the price
Other materials are a set cost extra per item.

After applying material costs, apply gunslinger discount.

Finally, apply weapon blanches in batches of 10.

[Nefreet]

It's just math. Some are good at it, and some aren't.

An Adamantine paper cartridge is 36gp, not 36.5

Paper cartridge (12gp) + Adamantine cost (60gp) = 72gp / 2 = 36gp

An Adamantine bullet costs 6.1gp

Bullet (1gp) + Adamantine cost (60gp) = 61gp / 10 = 6.1gp

Also, fun fact, you can craft Mithral bullets in sets of 30 (and they're cheaper than silver bullets), but you cannot craft Mithral paper cartridges.

[Nefreet]

neferphras wrote:

Folks are definitely doing this wrong around here.

Suspicions confirmed.

[thistledown]

Nefreet wrote:

Also, fun fact, you can craft Mithral bullets in sets of 30 (and they're cheaper than silver bullets), but you cannot craft Mithral paper cartridges.

There's nothing in the materials section that limits it to sets of 30, and no reason you can't have mithral paper cartridges.

Only enchanting ammunition requires a set of them. Single parts are fine on material differences.

[Nefreet]

Unfortunately, the only rules for creating Mithral items other than armor/shields is by the pound, and 30 bullets weigh half a pound. This makes a set of 30 bullets cost 250gp for non-Gunslingers, cut down to 25gp for a Gunslinger. There is no weight listed for paper cartridges, so in PFS, it's a custom item, and is not allowed.

[Jason Wu]

Nefreet wrote:

It's just math. Some are good at it, and some aren't.

An Adamantine paper cartridge is 36gp, not 36.5

Paper cartridge (12gp) + Adamantine cost (60gp) = 72gp / 2 = 36gp

An Adamantine bullet costs 6.1gp

Bullet (1gp) + Adamantine cost (60gp) = 61gp / 10 = 6.1gp

Or some folks might deliberately not subtract the 1 gp because it's not stated you get that cost back.

Please don't make assumptions.

-j

[Nefreet]

There is no "subtracting the 1 gp".

A paper cartridge costs 12gp. There is no disputing this.

Adamantine costs "+60 gp per missile". There is no disputing this.

Ergo, an Adamantine paper cartridge costs 72gp. For a Gunslinger, that means it costs 36gp.

Like I said, it's just math. Some are good at it, and some aren't.

[thistledown]

Nefreet wrote:

Unfortunately, the only rules for creating Mithral items other than armor/shields is by the pound, and 30 bullets weigh half a pound. This makes a set of 30 bullets cost 250gp for non-Gunslingers, cut down to 25gp for a Gunslinger. There is no weight listed for paper cartridges, so in PFS, it's a custom item, and is not allowed.

As written, the weight for paper cartridges is Zero, per ultimate equipment. So mithral cartridges would cost the same as regular ones. Since that's dumb, just treat them as the sum of the parts for pricing.

Bullets can be purchased individually, therefore mithral can be applied to them individually.

[Robert A Matthews]

I was under the impression that a paper cartridge cannot be an adamantine bullet or cold iron, etc. as it is not listed that way. Is this not correct?