Goblin Squad Member
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...there should be equal admonishment directed at those that claim they detest PvP...
"...Pathfinder Online does not have open world unrestricted PvP. It is a game where there is non-consensual PvP, but not a game where that PvP occurs everywhere and without warning or consequence.
We know that some players would like to have the ability to opt out of PvP altogether. We are not going to enable that kind of functionality, because we feel that PvP is an intrinsic, critical part of "meaningful human interaction".
We feel that the presence of PvP creates interesting dynamic behavior. It creates risk and risk makes reward have value. PvP risk makes it valuable to transport goods from one location to another. It makes it valuable to work with other players to protect one-another as they explore the world, or fight monsters, or harvest resources."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would you agree that the opposite is equally detrimental?
We have often seen the response to those that said they wish to be griefers, and they were basically told that such behavior would not be tolerated. I agree with that, but there should be equal admonishment directed at those that claim they detest PvP and will resort to any means to not participate within the spirit of the systems put in place to make that PvP interaction meaningful.
If we are going to show people to the door for wanting to be griefers, we should do the same for those who want a PvE only environment. Both, equally, add nothing constructive to the game community.
I think it's been made pretty clear that
a.) Banditry is a vital part of the game and while it will be tough, there will be a way to play it without having a completely crippled character.
b.) The 100% PVE character can be crafters that never leave major cities. Crafters very much contribute to the game design. Without them you have nothing to rob.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think possibly players interested in CE for "in character" reasons might actually be closer to Chaotic Good or else not Evil?
I liked your post above, but wanted to take issue with this.
One main way to get evil alignment in the game is to attack unflagged characters. There's two exceptions I can see: wartime and Champions killing unflagged evil, and the Champion loses a reputation hit for doing that. Another ways to get more evil is to commit heinous acts, and there may be others.
If you're forcing others to play the game the way you want them to play it, and you're attacking unflagged characters on a routine basis, it may be many things, but it probably isn't CG.
If someone is playing a CE assassin for in character reasons - that might be an exception. If an assassin limits his unflagged kills to bounties and contracts, he's probably committing very few evil acts, and relying on his core alignment to keep him evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have said since NWN that persistent virtual sandbox gaming worlds are the "next movies". I will never, ever understand how that historical inevitablity was side tracked for 10 years by WoW.
It actually just convinces me that most of the great advances in Human History didn't actually arrive until the common man had seen them coming for some time. I'm glad that there are people like Ryan Dancey in the world who see the same things we see, but have the Spirit and the resources to make it happen.
Did i just hear the sound of the penny dropping? from all the QQ from the PvP bandits, i guess they heard it as well.LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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Side note: If Champions (or enforcer, I forget) has the ability (according to the flags blog) to attack ANYONE OF EVIL ALIGNMENT flagged or not, without penalty. This is the same as a CE person ganking anyone for fun. Difference is the CE person looses reputation (and alignment but since already CE that doesn't matter) so how is that fair and balanced? Downside is that the champion must make sure he/she is evil but otherwise is unrestricted? So won't that lead to ganking from the GOOD guys? With a simple detect evil spell, they get free ganks, regardless of if we are flagged or not.
No, I don't think that's the case.
The Champion still loses reputation for killing unflagged evil characters; it's not without penalty. He also gains chaos if he breaks a law to do it. If the Champion kills many unflagged evil characters of average reputation he will cripple his own reputation. So part of your defense against Champions is to keep your rep as high as you can. A high rep Assassin, between jobs and unflagged, is not a target a Champion wants to take on. Likewise, evil controlled hexes are likely safe zones because of the chaos hit the Champion will suffer.
If a character gets a very low reputation by killing lots and lots of unflagged characters, then yes, that character is at risk of retribution from Champions, flagged or not. But generally, Champions don't get free ganks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Champions don't get free ganks.
"Individual acts of random justice meted out between individuals with no social connection? That's an evil act, regardless of the alignment of the victim. That still doesn't mean that you can't do it if you're Lawful Good, just that you'll shift your alignment (slightly) every time you do it, and you'll have to decide if that shift is worthwhile. In other words, a meaningful choice."
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Champions (or enforcer, I forget) has the ability (according to the flags blog) to attack ANYONE OF EVIL ALIGNMENT flagged or not, without penalty.
Champion (Good)
Champion is for players who want to proactively take the fight to the forces of evil. It allows players to more easily engage evil characters and earn reputation. As long as you limit your kills to evil characters, you get increasing benefits, but killing neutral or good characters ends your benefits; you still can suffer reputation and law vs. chaos loss for attacking evil characters. .
If they attack someone who is not flagged, they immediately lose the Champion flag, which means they will take a +Evil hit if they kill them.
So, yeah, "Champions don't get free ganks", indeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lawful Good will be at a substantial mechanical disadvantage. (Keeping that alignment in the face of temptation to use force to solve problems will be hard)
Lawful Evil will get all the upside of being able to use force to solve problems, and will have awesome Settlements."[/url]
Hmmm. This makes it sound as LE will have both an absolute and comparative advantage over LG.
Lawful Evil settlements "will (potentially) have less valuable buildings than a Lawful Good Settlement - less valuable to a degree not yet determined. It will not have buildings as crappy as Chaotic Evil."
This makes it sound as LE and LG will have comparative advantages--one with a mechanical advantage in political options, one with a mechanical advantage in settlements.
PS Thanks Jazz for all that linking--you are cut from the same generous cloth as ole Nihimon, I see.
Which is it, do you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think everyone is ignoring the fact that if you are a CE character of high reputation, you will probably be welcomed into both NE and CN settlements. Between the two, you are likely to find all of your Evil and Chaotic aligned skill trainers.
The CE settlement will be a challenge to operate. But the wise CE individual will blend themselves in with a more advantaged society in order to use them for personal gain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PS Thanks Jazz for all that linking--you are cut from the same generous cloth as ole Nihimon, I see.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And seeing as how I think providing links and quotes is a great service to the community (it's much better than berating people for not using the search features), I'm extremely grateful that there are others who heed the same calling.
Speaking of, where's Dario been lately?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Champions (or enforcer, I forget) has the ability (according to the flags blog) to attack ANYONE OF EVIL ALIGNMENT flagged or not, without penalty.Champion (Good)
Champion is for players who want to proactively take the fight to the forces of evil. It allows players to more easily engage evil characters and earn reputation. As long as you limit your kills to evil characters, you get increasing benefits, but killing neutral or good characters ends your benefits; you still can suffer reputation and law vs. chaos loss for attacking evil characters. .If they attack someone who is not flagged, they immediately lose the Champion flag, which means they will take a +Evil hit if they kill them.
So, yeah, "Champions don't get free ganks", indeed.
Not quite - Champion still gives the following benefit:
"Attacking unflagged evil characters gives the player the Involved flag instead of Attacker." Remember, this is the whole point of being flagged a Champion - flagged Evil characters don't require anything special in order to engage them without full penalties.They're still not "free", since there's a reputation hit for attacking an unflagged character, but the Champion flag will remain active as long as the Champion restricts themselves to Evil targets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically the way the champion flag works is that you flag yourself for PVP, but restrict yourself to evil targets and targets that won't give you the attacker flag.
You gain reputation and alignment over time for wearing the flag, but you lose them as normal when killing evil characters.
So the champion flag gives you some ability to kill high reputation evil characters as you desire but if you just detect alignment and kill every evil player you see, you'll lose reputation and alignment much faster than you can gain them back.
This means you really have to put some consideration into who you kill. For me, this means I'll be holding back unless I feel the target poses a significant threat to the general populace.