Goblin Squad Member
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There's nothing stopping Goblin Works from allowing multiple 'Mansions' per Hex, which can lead to hilarious situations where multiple high-level PC Charters/Companies/Guilds start squabble for space and territory.
I am curious as to an explanation of Mr Dancey's terms. What do you mean by '.'? I don't quite grasp how that could work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not necessarily so that the players running a settlement are the richest. To make sure the 'right' players are targeted for drainage you'd need something like automatic progressive wealth tax (maybe disguised as 'luxurious lifestyle expenses', 'mandatory insurance' or 'embezzlement (by those sims we supposedly have working for us)'.
How to guard this system against people splitting their fortunes on multiple characters, I have no idea. Perhaps a 'tax' on transfers of large amounts of money between characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How to guard this system against people splitting their fortunes on multiple characters, I have no idea. Perhaps a 'tax' on transfers of large amounts of money between characters.
Too late to edit. How stupid is it to say that I have no idea, then move on to suggesting an idea? D'oh! *facepalm*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather see a carrot used as opposed to the stick when GW design a way to drain money from 'rich' characters. Being able to fund more defences for your settlement, a bigger church spire to proclaim your devotion, better and bigger taverns...something that adds flavour to the game.
In this way, a player feels as though their characters hard earned coin has been well utilized, as opposed to being absorbed through a luxury tax that does not add any visible or tangible benefits.
That said, I'm not opposed to a flat tax on transactions or goods and services. This can easily be explained as settlement upkeep, and really, the richer characters should and should be spending more or more frequently, which means they pay more tax regardless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Papaver,
If progressive taxation = socialist society then there are very few non-socialist countries.
USA may not have wealth tax directly but progressive income tax, property tax etc. means that in general, richer people pay more.
I would prefer a narrower definition of 'socialist' since such a definition could be more useful in making distinctions between different existing countries.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So far, I haven't seen any solutions that suggest a response to "A player accumulates a lot of coin, and then before he quits he gives it all away."
The only suggestion I have at the moment would be a limit on burn rate; make it so that no matter how much coin you have, you can only spend it at a specified rate. I hate that suggestion, and find something new wrong with it every time I look at it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Papaver,
If progressive taxation = socialist society then there are very few non-socialist countries.USA may not have wealth tax directly but progressive income tax, property tax etc. means that in general, richer people pay more.
I would prefer a narrower definition of 'socialist' since such a definition could be more useful in making distinctions between different existing countries.
If one has to adjust the definition of "socialist" because the word itself needs to stay something negative then it's not my problem :)
So yeah I guess the USA and a lot of other countries are socialist or at least have socialist elements as a progressive income tax is definitely a socialist element xD
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Socialist" means "no private property", ultimately.
IMO, the problem with players accumulating lots of money is because they don't have something obviously valuable to easily spend it on. I believe that having tiers of recurring expense levels that grant real benefits to Characters will effectively deal with that problem for 80% of Characters. There will always be some who hoard their wealth regardless of what sinks are available. The trick is to make it so that the "normal" Character sees the benefit of allowing automatic deductions every day/week/month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It really doesn't."Socialist" means "no private property", ultimately.
Socialism is defined as "social ownership" of the "means of production". That is the true, key, defining characteristic of the system.
If you want to pretend that's compatible with "private property", you go right ahead, but you'll just make yourself look silly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are confusing socialism with the theory of communism.
No, I'm not; I'm reading a definition of Socialism.
Every single one of those - and any other reputable source - agrees with me.
The "collective ownership of the means of production" is the fundamental, defining trait of Socialism.
Like I said, you can pretend it's otherwise, but you're just making yourself look silly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's ad hominem to point out that you're making yourself look silly by saying a word means what you want it to mean rather than what society has agreed it means?
Actually... Ad Hominem is when I ignore the point you're making in an argument and attack you personally instead. I didn't do that, but you did, and ineffectively at that.
I wonder why you're so combative with me lately. Did I do something to really get under your skin?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did address all of your points and presented arguments to contradict them. If you wish to interpret that as having a problem with your persona then I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I am sorry that apparently my views have, again, offended you in some way.
I suggest we discontinue this exchange in favor of the actual topic of this thread. Do you agree with this suggestion?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Socialism is defined as "social ownership" of the "means of production". That is the true, key, defining characteristic of the system.
If you want to pretend that's compatible with "private property", you go right ahead, but you'll just make yourself look silly.
So in a socialist society, there is social ownership of the factories, maybe the farms, maybe the internet. The means of production.
There's still room for private property; private possessions. You can own a house or a car or lots of things, right?
(Veering back on topic...) But in PFO, the settlements will control the means of production in all of those settlement structures, so we'll all be socialists. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's still room for private property; private possessions. You can own a house or a car or lots of things, right?
Sure, you can own that house or that car or lots of other things until you put them to profitable use, at which point they become "means of production", and your comrades will feel justified in taking them away from you, for the greater good.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think we can have settlement/community ownership of some means of production while still having private ownership of other things which might be considered means of production.
For example, the smithy is too expensive for any one character to build, and stays that way no matter how rich players get (because the smithy gets better and more expensive, too), but individual patterns and tools could be owned either by the settlement or by individuals.
It doesn't matter for any practical purpose if that is technically socialism or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, hopefully stepping around the political landmines...
The ability to buy training time with Earth currency and then sell it for Golarion currency is one of the main ways to combat the scam-prone goldseller market, but isn't the ability to spend game coin on training for an otherwise free character also a means of draining the economy? Spent training time is inextricably tied to a character and can never re-enter the economy, except in the slower, indirect sense that the skills purchased may allow one to participate in the economy more effectively.
But wait... that means character skills are a crucial component of "the means of production", and are absolutely private to the individual...
Oops.
*BOOM*
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Goblin Squad Member
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This a more complicated way of saying that you are not willing to drop this offtopic discussion. Several people already deleted their posts to avoid filing this topic derailing.
Your antagonism is really starting to grow old.
1. I joined an on-going conversation to offer my input.
2. You called me out directly and accused me of being wrong, repeatedly.
3. I proved you wrong.
4. I responded to someone else who asked me a direction question.
5. You called me out again for "not dropping" it.
6. You called me out again.
If you're trying to make me lose all respect for you, you're doing an extremely good job.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1 through 6 is false.
I don't antagonise you I adress your points. I admit I may do so in a clumsy fashion as English is my third language but I don't recall attacking you in person. But it's cool. If you dissect the words I use instead of addressing the argument my English knowledge benefits from it.
Also: I require your respect? Do elaborate.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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No, it's not a drain. The Coin exchanged for our PLEX-equivalent is not destroyed when the PLEX-thing is sold on the market. To the extent that some of what you spend that Coin on constitutes a drain, that's a secondary effect. It does help that it's likely that by transferring Coin from someone with an excess to someone with a need, we're likely seeing a transfer from a player with a lot of experience to a player with less experience, and in that case, the pace of Coin drainage is probably higher with the seller of the PLEX-thing than the buyer. So that's good for the purpose of getting Coin out of the economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually as everything we are, do and own ingame belongs to GW this is pretty much slavery.
But wait... that means character skills are a crucial component of "the means of production", and are absolutely private to the individual...
Oops.
*BOOM*
I don't think it can be slavery if it's consensual. It's more like a D/s scene. You're playing by someone else's rules, but if it stops being entertaining you can opt out and go do something else. :P
Also...
Dear Nihimon & Papaver: I hate it when mommy & daddy fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok I have realized the error of my way. I apologize to you, Nihimon, and anyone else who I offended as I take it that they where. I hereby also deny any claim I made in question of Nihimons discourse and can confirm that Nihimons intentions where honorable and any questioning on my part of them where wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok I have realized the error of my way. I apologize to you, Nihimon, and anyone else who I offended as I take it that they where. I hereby also deny any claim I made in question of Nihimons discourse and can confirm that Nihimons intentions where honorable and any questioning on my part of them where wrong.
Dont apologize... He has done this exact thing in any thread with anyone who disagrees with him.
Socialism is not Communism, although it is made equal in american culture and american run websites... most of which is what was linked.
A very basic definition:
Communism - The state owns everything
Socialism - The people own everything (this is not practiced, and granted I am american and may still be wrong since we are lied to by our Presidential Dictatorship) Thats right people, the office (not the man) is a dictatorship lol