Goblin Squad Member
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Making buying craft skills a tradeoff with other things you might want to buy, so achievers don't feel like there's a big hole on their character sheets if they don't also raise those skills.
I had never really looked at it like this, but you're absolutely right. I regret now that I ever advocated for "training channels" that would allow you to train, for example, Crafting skills and Adventuring skills at the same time.
We may still require you to craft a few items in pursuit of an achievement necessary for the next level, but it shouldn't be anything like "make all the orange recipes, then look for higher level recipes once those go yellow."
I expect that Feats with specific pre-reqs (knowing N recipes for that class of item, crafting X items of Y quality, crafting Z items 'masterfully' i.e. with exceeding the minimum skill check by N, etc) would be the way to go with enforcing any specificities beyond the generic skill training progression that happens in the background... Perhaps some of these Feats could work similar to Tiers, i.e. giving you the best of 2/3 re-rolls (probably with each Tier feat only applicable to certain ranges/tiers of crafted gear, requiring further Feats to gain 'Crafting Tiers' for higher level gear, but you don't need that to make use of the skill itself for higher level gear). That leaves people who have those Tier feats at significant economic advantage in the market over those who just happen to have sufficient skill modifier, although having a max-level skill modifier would make it quicker to achieve those Tier Feats whenever you actually decide to do so, and people mainly interested in crafting for themselves or allies wouldn't necessarily care about economic effectiveness.
I believe it was suggested at one point that non-'PC class abilities' would also be covered by Feats, and/or there may even be specific 'Roles' that go outside the scope of 'PC Class abilities' or combat in general, i.e. crafting and trade and diplomacy and party/company/settlement/kingdom management would be obvious directions to cover.
Eliminating the item creation skill grind... This should mean most items are entering the economy because a player actually wanted to make them for profit (or at least for a friend), rather than just making them to make a skill bar go up.
Exactly, the people who want to be crafters aren't competing against people who don't really care about doing that, and the people who don't really care about crafting aren't putting themself at a disadvantage by turning down a 'free' opportunity to engage in crafting, and focusing solely on non-crafting niches will also be viable.
I have to admit, I will probably devote at least one 'slot' on each 'Adventuring' character I make to a Crafting or Profession skill if only because having the ability to do something other than swing a sword/fling some fire/heal some hobos can prove useful.
AFAIK, everything we have from GW is saying that each character only HAS one skill training slot, period, and that apparently also covers things like Perception or Acrobatics or Diplomacy (settlement management/formation combat leadership?). I haven't seen anything responding to questions about what the max skill cap is, how quickly you can reach that skill cap, or what the advancement curve is (linear or not).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to admit, I will probably devote at least one 'slot' on each 'Adventuring' character I make to a Crafting or Profession skill if only because having the ability to do something other than swing a sword/fling some fire/heal some hobos can prove useful.AFAIK, everything we have from GW is saying that each character only HAS one skill training slot, period, and that apparently also covers things like Perception or Acrobatics or Diplomacy (settlement management/formation combat leadership?). I haven't seen anything responding to questions about what the max skill cap is, how quickly you can reach that skill cap, or what the advancement curve is (linear or not).
Unless I'm majorly misunderstanding, there's no slots period. There's XP going up consistantly (provided you are paying training), then you go out earn merit badges to meet pre-reqs, and then spend the XP/Gold on what you want. you can on paper plan to spend 1/4th of your XP on crafting skills however.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless I'm majorly misunderstanding, there's no slots period. There's XP going up consistantly (provided you are paying training), then you go out earn merit badges to meet pre-reqs, and then spend the XP/Gold on what you want. you can on paper plan to spend 1/4th of your XP on crafting skills however.
Yep, that's my understanding too. It won't actually be very EVE-like, more like a "skill shop"... though the training itself may take some time as well, like a crafting job.
If XP must be 'spent' to achieve skill training, and AFAIK nothing has suggested any limit on using all of it for training one skill as soon as you gain it, that means that deciding to split it to different skills is directly impacting your training of the one skill, i.e. any XP you don't spend on advancing a skill means you are advancing that skill more slowly: not substantially different than a 'single slot' analogy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If XP must be 'spent' to achieve skill training, and AFAIK nothing has suggested any limit on using all of it for training one skill as soon as you gain it, that means that deciding to split it to different skills is directly impacting your training of the one skill, i.e. any XP you don't spend on advancing a skill means you are advancing that skill more slowly: not substantially different than a 'single slot' analogy.
Just saw this in another thread, should make it more clear:
The system as it currently stands is:
1. Accumulate XP over time (as long as you're subscribed, but whether or not you're logged in).
2. While you're accumulating XP, go out and get achievements/merit badges.
3. Browse a training hall to which you have access. See if they have anything you want, can afford with XP, and meet the prerequisites for (achievements or sufficiently high ability scores). The building owner might also set a coin fee for the trait, which you have to pay.
4. If you see something you want, select it and press Train. The coin and XP is deducted from you, and the trait is added to your character. Additionally, the associated ability score goes up by a fraction of a point (meaning after buying several traits from the same score, you now have a higher ability score to qualify for better training).We don't yet know if we'll have a waiting list feature if you're waiting for a particular trait to come back into stock. Probably the simplest solution is that if you see it as available, you can buy it right now; if not, check back later or try a different training hall. If that's resulting in a lot of people getting bottlenecked on training, we'll look at additional system elements to correct.
Thanks... I followed up on that a bit in the other thread...
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Low level raw materials are too expensive on the market for low level players to buy them.
2. In fact, they're so expensive that it really makes more sense for low level players to just learn gathering skills and sell what they've gathered on the market, rather than trying to improve crafting skill.
The above is why EVERY character in EVERY game I ever played is always a gather. In fact in many games most guild mates do not even want the items I craft for free. In most games I played the only thing I sell are dyes, potion and crafting materials. It makes for a very sad crafter. True these have all been sandbox games. It why I am here it why I even though I hate pvp even though I know I will die a LOT and need to make friend to protect me another thing I not very good at I am so looking forward to this game. Although I must admit that the open pvp does make me nervous.
Run to Stephen and gives him a great big hug and kiss…
This is why I believe Pathfinder is a game I will be playing when I am 90 +…
We're hopefully avoiding all this by:
• Making buying craft skills a tradeoff with other things you might want to buy, so achievers don't feel like there's a big hole on their character sheets if they don't also raise those skills.
• Eliminating the item creation skill grind. We may still require you to craft a few items in pursuit of an achievement necessary for the next level, but it shouldn't be anything like "make all the orange recipes, then look for higher level recipes once those go yellow." This should mean most items are entering the economy because a player actually wanted to make them for profit (or at least for a friend), rather than just making them to make a skill bar go up.
Thank you Pathfinder you have made me very happy… Ps soprry do not know how to make a quote.
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Goblin Squad Member
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LOL, Steve Cheney just explained to me why I have never crafted in any game before. Always fun when a random person explains your behavior to you.
I think I will finally love crafting with PFO, just like I finally loved beer when I tasted craft beer.
Was that a pun?
HA
But that's exactly right, I was bored crafting in other games. Eve was different then most with crafting but I was still bored. I need to reread his post and hopefully I can make a decent decision to have a crafting alt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but will Daily Deal items be repairable? It's probably safe to assume no one will ever be able to craft them, so the number in game only ever goes down as people quit/lose them when dying. So will there be an exception of some form allowing people to repair them without having the recipe/blueprint to make them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but will Daily Deal items be repairable? It's probably safe to assume no one will ever be able to craft them, so the number in game only ever goes down as people quit/lose them when dying. So will there be an exception of some form allowing people to repair them without having the recipe/blueprint to make them?
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Daily Deal items never take damage, and can never be looted.
Looking for a quote, but I think it might have been something Ryan answered with a bare "Yes" or something, so it might be hard to find.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen, how are you folks using the words "Inflation" and "Deflation?" In a disciplinary sense, inflation (deflation) are purely monetary phenomena: either an increase or decrease in the money supply relative to the pool of goods to be denominated. So in a strict sense the size of the pool of goods (never mind forgetting about services) can't be inflationary or deflationary--at best it would be a failure to adjust the money supply to the new pool of goods.
Is it possible the words are being used to refer both to a monetary phenomenon, but also some measure of the pool of goods as having some sort of gameplay impact?
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Goblin Squad Member
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[QUOTE="
Some Good Reason for Your Little Black Backpack"] We've been having some very long discussions around here lately trying to balance the competing desires of PvE players, PvP players, and the good of the economy as a whole. When you're the one who died, you'll probably want to hang on to everything you're carrying. When you've killed someone, you naturally expect to take everything your target was carrying, and especially want whatever it was you risked reputation loss and death to fight for. Both these desires clash with a broader game principle: The desire to keep the game economy healthy. In order to avoid runaway inflation or deflation, it's important for items to fall out of circulation at a manageable rate
...
Compared to previously outlined systems, this means that everyone loses a consistent amount of stuff on death, so we can keep that amount low. (Previously, death caused a 75% loss if you got looted or 0% if you made it back to your body first.) The ultimate check on economy inflation should be similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If XP must be 'spent' to achieve skill training, and AFAIK nothing has suggested any limit on using all of it for training one skill as soon as you gain it, that means that deciding to split it to different skills is directly impacting your training of the one skill, i.e. any XP you don't spend on advancing a skill means you are advancing that skill more slowly: not substantially different than a 'single slot' analogy.
Say you want to train Rogue 3 which makes your sneak attack a bit better. You might have a list of prerequisites, not merely 'Rogue 2'. Included in that list there could be an '[elective skill] 2' requirement which could be fulfilled by 'Bluff 2', or you might opt for 'Blade Forging 2' if you wanted to makes your own backstab tools. By having some prereqs which can be filled with any skill (except those which define and belong to another role) then not every rogue would be built the same way, and you couldn't singlemindedly advance one skill chain entirely out of proportion to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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echoing @Keovar And at some point you'll need Dex 11 or 12 or 13 for the next level of Rogue/Sneak Attack. Maybe you've just been buying Rogue/Sneak Attack skill, and getting a little bit of Dex from those buys. But at some point you'll need to buy maybe some Dodge or Thrown Weapon or any number of other Dex-based skills to advance Dex to the point you can buy more Rogue/Sneak Attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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echoing @Keovar And at some point you'll need Dex 11 or 12 or 13 for the next level of Rogue/Sneak Attack. Maybe you've just been buying Rogue/Sneak Attack skill, and getting a little bit of Dex from those buys. But at some point you'll need to buy maybe some Dodge or Thrown Weapon or any number of other Dex-based skills to advance Dex to the point you can buy more Rogue/Sneak Attack.
Good point, stats are eanother way of requiring elective skills. They may not be earned in whole points, but in little .2 increments. GW might just inflate the stat numbers by moving the decimal as they have with other numbers, making a 12 Dex into 120 and .2 into 2.
Still, stat requirements could lead to a tendency for uniform selections, so I think it would still be good to also have some which are entirely open.|
Goblin Squad Member
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@HalfOrc: I think at the training station you buy the skill training (with training points, not coin); you get the 'badge' by then going out and completing some task. A skill quest, if you will. I'm not sure if the badge is a prerequisite for the next level of the skill, though. If it is, then someone can't buy 3 levels of skill and go out and earn the badges sequentially. They'd need to return to the training station for each skill on that track.
But they could buy levels in 3 different skills and go out to earn the 3 badges before returning to the station. I think that's another way we'll be encouraged to diversify.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@HalfOrc: I think at the training station you buy the skill training; you get the 'badge' by then going out and completing some task. A skill quest, if you will. I'm not sure if the badge is a prerequisite for the next level of the skill, though.
It's the other way around - the badge is the prerequisite to the training, you need both the badge and the xp to train the skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@HalfOrc
That is not how skill training is described to work from the last info posted.
This is still accurate. The system as it currently stands is:
1. Accumulate XP over time (as long as you're subscribed, but whether or not you're logged in).
2. While you're accumulating XP, go out and get achievements/merit badges.
3. Browse a training hall to which you have access. See if they have anything you want, can afford with XP, and meet the prerequisites for (achievements or sufficiently high ability scores). The building owner might also set a coin fee for the trait, which you have to pay.
4. If you see something you want, select it and press Train. The coin and XP is deducted from you, and the trait is added to your character. Additionally, the associated ability score goes up by a fraction of a point (meaning after buying several traits from the same score, you now have a higher ability score to qualify for better training).We don't yet know if we'll have a waiting list feature if you're waiting for a particular trait to come back into stock. Probably the simplest solution is that if you see it as available, you can buy it right now; if not, check back later or try a different training hall. If that's resulting in a lot of people getting bottlenecked on training, we'll look at additional system elements to correct.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We need the economy to have inflation in the sense that we need to be adding more Coin to the economy than is being removed. Being slightly inflationary allows new players to accumulate wealth but doesn't require them to do so at the expense of existing characters.
The risk of having an inflationary economy is inflationary prices. If the rate of expansion of the money supply becomes too great, the price for goods will collapse and the economy will self-destruct. So we need to be very careful to avoid that.
Eventually we will need to impose some really large sinks on the wealthiest players because they can become "too big to fail" in the sense that if they wanted to they could gift so much Coin to new players that the new players would have no incentive to participate in the crafting systems. But that's years and years and years in the future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At that point, I would expect company and settlement expenditures to be worthwhile endeavors for wealthy characters. If settlements could have an "instanced zone" for personal player structures that could also become a cool top end coin sink. 'Zerro the Weaponmaster lives in a mansion on 5555 Instance Way'. The address serves as an instance lookup, and the reason for instances is to avoid either extremely limited space for personal holdings or 'countryside clutter' from a lot of them being visible.
Naturally, you would lose your personal building if the settlement you reside in fails or is conquered. More reason for Mr. Rich to continue investing in his community and not retiring into comfortable solitude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me that a really good way to accomplish this goal is to allow Characters to spend resources as an on-going expenditure rather than just as ad hoc expenditures.
For truly rich veteran players, allow them to spend 10,000 Coin per Month in order to have access to very fancy looking clothing. The key is to make that clothing only available with the ongoing expenditure - they shouldn't be able to simply buy the clothing once and have access to it from then on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me that a really good way to accomplish this goal is to allow Characters to spend resources as an on-going expenditure rather than just as ad hoc expenditures.
For truly rich veteran players, allow them to spend 10,000 Coin per Month in order to have access to very fancy looking clothing. The key is to make that clothing only available with the ongoing expenditure - they shouldn't be able to simply buy the clothing once and have access to it from then on.
I tend to dislike this model for most areas of personal expense. The idea of "Renting" clothing really turns me off. If I get rich and blow all my wealth on fancy clothes, I want to be able to pull those out some day down the road as proof that "I used to be rich like you. But then I took an arrow..." well, you get what I mean.
Unless someone steals them from me, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone spends his in-game coin on one garment, then it might be a rich garment for a while. Next month it is an outdated ...thing. Conspicuous consumption relies of the rich being up to date, with the finest clothing that's currently in fashion. The garment model might change or it might not, it might allow the owner to modify the colors. But it represents the cutting edge of the fashionistas and definitely has an expiry date. Such consumption is rented, imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping up with fashion trends is certainly not something I would be looking to emulate. If there is a substantial portion of the user base that does, then I suppose this could be a valid sink and they should go for it. I would personally be more satisfied gifting my coin to others. But I do not make a majority on my own :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Lifedragon What of instead of renting there was an up keep for that fancy outfit you bought. An example say a fur coat would need to be cleaned and stored correctly. If you do not pay the upkeep it could become moth eaten or damaged from heat or humidity.
While you still be able to pull out that fur coat you had when you were rich before you took that arrow but now it is dried out with patches of fur missing and moth eaten. It's not exactly the rich garment it once was when you first bought it but you still have it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The danger in the distant future is the mega-wealthy guy who decides to blow out his bank and then quit. He liberally sloshes coin around in the newbie ranks and suddenly everyone has more than enough Coin to pay any expense. Suddenly, nobody cares anymore about the stuff you have to do to earn coin. And nobody really cares about market prices; you don't worry about the arbitrage price, you just buy whatever you want when you want it wherever you are. Hubs collapse, traders are wiped out, inventory rots, crafters see no point in crafting, etc. A lot of people quit in boredom/frustration.
That sucks. So we'll need to defend the economy against it.
There's a converse problem. The mega-wealthy guy who decides to just quit WITHOUT blowing out his bank. Suddenly there's a vast amount of Coin locked up in an inactive account. It's been effectively "drained" out of the economy. Depending on how big a horde that is, the lack of velocity on that Coin could have problems too. The follow-on problem is that if we do things to make up for the loss of that Coin and then that player returns later and starts re-injecting it, we'll have to soak up whatever we did in the first place to cope. You can imagine the crushing pain of the expansion / contraction cycles this engenders.
(You can replace "mega-wealthy guy" with "mega-wealthy Settlement" and get the same effect without focusing on the mechanics of how one player amasses enough wealth to damage the whole economy)
These kind of run-away problems have destroyed many in-game economies, and we're virtually certain to have a few especially in Early Enrollment. In the end, the only real course of action is often arbitrary excision, which pisses people off to no end, but sometimes the short-term pain is the only way to fix a long-term problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Been working on a simple piece of code to help minimize losses due to threading choices in PVE and PVP with the current system proposed in this blog, along with some simple assumptions (eg. linear repair). Currently it only works in Linux by command line and requires python installed, though I'm providing the source code to allow those who want it working in other operating systems to play with it. Yes it's a brute force calculation, but even on my crappy laptop calculating the best thread choices for 12 items takes less than 0.1 seconds.
Download here: Code+readme. Please read the README.txt file for usage!
Feedback and bug reporting is appreciated, preferably by PMs to avoid cluttering this thread. If there's enough interest I can add more features (eg. spreadsheet input, non-linear repair, Windows OS, etc. I haven't touched a Mac in a very long time, so you're on your own with that OS!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, with an inactive account, why not take a 'carbon copy' of the 'inactive' account and have it pop up as a Quest NPC, either as a leader of a band of hostile NPCs or a traveling merchant?
Also, high-level characters might want to have their own personal dwellings. Why not allow them to 'purchase' vacant lots in wild Hexes, which necessitates them hiring, equipping and training NPCs to defend and maintain their 'mansion' (Think SKYRIM:Hearthfire here), which will have upkeep costs as well as material components as well.
And we're talking about extremely expensive here. Not a few thousand gold to splash out, but tens of thousands of golds for just a 12-room house, not including defences (walls, possibly more), Mercenaries (need to be equipped and trained out of your pocket) and hirelings to maintain the structure.
Think of them like 'mini-settlements' established in wild, unsettled Hexes towards the end of the 2-2.5 'curve' for groups of high-level, high-wealth characters who may want a 'beach-head' in hostile hexes, effectively serving as a potential seed for a new Settlement in and of themselves.
And they're capturable. Meaning that you've got the 'heart' of a Settlement sitting there without a defensive wall to protect them and only 'weak' NPCs guarding it.
Excellent, high-risk Gold Sink for wealthy players that can be lost and set them back tens of thousands of gold if they are not careful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, there's a couple of benefits to the above situation:
1) High-Level PvP with a real goal to fight over.
These 'Mansions' out in the unclaimed Hexes provide a handy little stop-off/drop-off point for high-level Adventurer/Gatherer types to offload their goods inbetween ventures, and depending upon how the Mercenaries are set up, might provide a welcome refuge for lower-level Players taking their first forays well outside of the 'safer' Hexes. Whoever controls these 'Mansions' can set tithes for their use, has easier access to resources that are beyond most other player's reach and can potentially avoid crippling taxes and/or goods tithes by keeping the bulk of their wealth outside of the Settlements.
Which makes the Mansions delicious targets for Bandits, unscrupulous Rival Players and even financially-cramped Settlements to target. Glorious PvP for all!
2) Potential 'seeds' for new Settlements.
These 'Mansions' provide a nice 'starting point' for new Settlements, especially if the 'Mansion' acts as the 'castle'-type structure that most Settlements start off with as the 'base of operations'.
Capture the 'Base', take over the Settlement.
And for Players 2.5+ years in with bucketloads of wealth, in a game like Pathfinder Online, it would be a massive exercise in ego-stroking to found a Settlement named after themselves or their Company/Charter/Guild. With the skills, the wealth and the contacts to make it happen, a 'Mansion' built deep into the Wild/Unclaimed Hexes and developed as quietly as possible could potentially grow to rival any of the 'old' Settlements that have been squeezing each other for room to grow for those 2.5 years.
3) Roleplay Hooks Ahoy!
Such structures might very well play the role of homes to a secretive order of Wizards, an illegal 'cult' that is hostile to the nearest Settlement (think caydenite lodge a few hexes over from the Diabolist/Asmodeus/Hell Knight affiliated-Settlement) or even an Assassins Training Hall.
Litterally, an Assassin's Training Hall. Only 'Assassin' Players of X-rank or notriety could be invited to the Mansion to train in a rare Assassin-only Badge/Talent/Skill ...
The Cultists might work to destabilize the Hostile Settlement, depending upon their Gods/Goddesses commands and portfolio.
The Wizard Order might possess an unmatched library and a vault full of powerful player-crafted magical items that they dole out to those they consider worthy, or that they have 'retrieved' from Adventurers and other PCs whom have proven unworthy of the powers invoked.
There's no limit to what such a building could bring to the game.
And if we want to really put a twist in it ... make the Mansions buildable in a 'Hideout' area, ie mostly obscured from all but the most determined trackers or those with an exact map leading to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Probably the top 5%, who have staggering amounts of wealth. However they are in turn creating content for other players. And the money they expend in the building of said 'Mansion', including buying building materials, buying weapons and armor for their mercenaries and so on and so forth 'spreads' that accumulated wealth through the rest of the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@HalfOrc
I don't see a problem with content vs. coding value from what you describe. There would be value for a lot of the player pop. Unless they "dwellings" were too exclusive.
One concern that I do see. Hexes are 780 meters across from corner to corner or 680 meters side to side. Not very big, so one "dwelling" per hex? Even at 1% of estimated player pop you are talking about 1200 private "dwellings" by year 3. That is an awful lot of unclaimed hexes. Do you think the map will be that big?
Whatever number of hexes are available, they would certainly all be filled. No wilderness left. :(