Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand we will be given attributes to help define the "path/class" we want to take with our character.
Any information on how many attribute points will we get?
I.e min/max or how much. The higher the numbers would in my opinion increase the level of customization.
Is there a way to raise attributes either through skill, som form of achievement or levels?
Or are we stuck with what we get in the beginning with maybe optional respec?
Any information on the merit badges?
More specifically if the abilities are useful or just bragging rights in the form of emotes like in old republic?
Is there any other information about player statistics beyond attributes, resistances and skills?
Thanks
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ability scores do not directly affect many game systems the way they do in tabletop: having a high Strength won't add directly to your melee attacks, for example. However, ability scores play an important role in your training and advancement.
Previously, we had conceived of ability scores as a mechanism for decreasing the training time for linked traits (by lowering the XP cost). However, we worried that this would require too much up-front planning. If ability scores were set at character creation, you would be permanently making a choice as to what types of traits you'd pursue before you even knew what you'd find fun. If they could shift during play, there would be optimal paths for training order to match purchases most effectively to high ability scores.
So we've fairly dramatically adjusted our expectations for ability scores, while keeping them primarily about influencing your trait selection. Specifically:
- When you make a new character, you start with 10 in all ability scores (modified up or down by racial advantages).
- Every feat is linked to one ability score and provides a fractional increase to that score when purchased (potentially of a variable amount based on the XP cost of the feat and other factors).
- When you get enough fractional increases, your ability score goes up by 1 permanently.
- A minimum ability score value can serve as a prerequisite for purchasing feats.
It will be common for "higher level" traits to require a fairly high ability score to indicate that you're not just skipping ahead of the power curve (and this makes racial bonuses useful, because they mean you can skip some of the power curve). A single progression path will rarely be enough to keep ahead of ability score requirements, so you'll find yourself wanting to diversify. For example, a player trying to get Fighter 8 may need Strength 17, but all of the otherwise required Fighter feats only get her to Strength 15, so she'll need to diversify and pick up 2 more points worth of Strength feats of her choice to meet the requirement (this could be more attacks, more armor, or just skills that use Strength).Additionally, we may use the ability score as a minimum number for certain systems, but you will generally be able to overcome it with other purchases. For example, each skill's total bonus (which goes up to 300) has a minimum of the relevant ability score (e.g., if you've put no ranks in Stealth, your Stealth total will still be equal to Dexterity). This allows us to do comparisons where necessary without risking a divide-by-zero problem if you haven't purchased something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Note that the race with a stat bonus in one attribute likely has a penalty in another attribute. For example, In PF I think Elves get bonuses to Dex and Int and a penalty to Con. If that remains true, then Elvish characters can take shortcuts in gaining feats in Dex and Int. But gaining Con-related feats will be a challenge; they may have very few optional picks since they start out in the hole.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Human who gets to choose and the Race with the stat bonus.
Given that characteristics are going to be incremented by what you spend XP on, I'll not be surprised if races end up being only cosmetic. In tabletop, it's primarily an imaginative environment, oftentimes with minimal graphics, while this game is going to be a highly visual environment, so cosmetics are vital, and properly time-consuming to create.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for the mechanical benefit, it does in it allows skills and abilities one without can not have .
I understand your concern - I don't want to feel like I'm making a bad choice if I refuse to make my Paladin a Dwarf - and "over thinking" these things is half the fun of paying attention :)
That said, I think the "yet" in your quote above is the key.
The +2 Int that a new Elf character has over a new Human character is no different than the +whatever Int that a veteran Human character has over a new Elf player.
After a certain amount of time, it just won't matter at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PF, the elf, dwarf, gnome, and halfling get +2 to two characteristics and -2 to a third, for a total of +2. The human, half-elf, and half-orc all get +2 to one characteristic.
So if I play a half-elf in PFO, do I get to choose a characteristic to boost +2, depending on my character goals?
(If they announced character stats for PFO, I totally missed it)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...do I get to choose a characteristic to boost +2...
Characteristics in PFO aren't what they are in tabletop. This whole thread's worth reading, but in it Ryan said:
"It's extremely important to understand that in Pathfinder Online your attributes aren't mechanical bonuses. They are throttle settings on the speed that you train skills. And skills don't have mechanical benefits, they are p[re]-requisites for earning achievements which usually but not always will give your character a mechanical advantage."
and
"Your character is as much a reflection of what that character has done as what your character's attributes are.
This is a big difference between the online game and the tabletop game."
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Goblin Squad Member
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If GW stick with the traditional race bonuses (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome & Halfling) then the other three races will be just as popular for whatever archetype you choose to play.
I want to play a strong Figther type...Gnome or Half Orc, or Human or Half elf.
I want to play a lithe rogue type...Halfling or Half Orc, or Human or Half elf.
I want to play a smart finger wiggler type...Elf or Half Orc, or Human or Half elf.
Basically, no matter what archetype you're planning to play, I imagine there will be a rough demographic makeup consisting of 4 of the 7 core races.
As for the mechanical benefit, it does in it allows skills and abilities one without can not have .I understand your concern - I don't want to feel like I'm making a bad choice if I refuse to make my Paladin a Dwarf - and "over thinking" these things is half the fun of paying attention :)
That said, I think the "yet" in your quote above is the key.
The +2 Int that a new Elf character has over a new Human character is no different than the +whatever Int that a veteran Human character has over a new Elf player.
After a certain amount of time, it just won't matter at all.
Actually, I think it COULD be just the opposite. To go with the discussed example, an elf wizard will ALWAYS have an Int 2 points higher than any other race who is a wizard(unless they also have a +2 Int mod). He will ALWAYS be able to get access to wizard(i.e. Int based) skills and spells significantly earlier than other races.
If a race can't have that bonus modifier, you probably won't see people playing a class tied to it. A lot depends on how much of a difference this makes, because we already know that there are other limitations on advancement. GW's going to have a pretty difficult tight rope to walk in order to keep the racial bonuses significant without making them overpowering. If it takes 3 months for a wizard(w/o a +2 int mod) to go from a 16 int to an 18 int, and that's designed to be a major limiter on advancement, then an elf wizard will be able to bypass those 3 months. That seems like a pretty big deal to me.
Balance in an MMO is much different than balance in a tabletop RPG... The general populace will always try to take the most efficient, fastest method of advancement, no matter what. Especially in a pvp-centric game like PFO. It's just an undeniable fact built into the genre.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think it COULD be just the opposite. To go with the discussed example, an elf wizard will ALWAYS have an Int 2 points higher than any other race who is a wizard(unless they also have a +2 Int mod). He will ALWAYS be able to get access to wizard(i.e. Int based) skills and spells significantly earlier than other races.
Refer to my post above yours.
Yes, an Elf gets an Int modifier, but if GW use the Pathfinder traditional model, Half Orc, Human and Half elf also get a modifier on any ability they choose. Thus, we could assume that there would be an even spread of Elven, Half Orc, Human and Half Elven wizards...all with the +2 Int modifier.
Time will only tell if Elves also get the Dex and Con modifiers also. If so, we might see more Elven Mage/Rogue hybrid archetypes than we do other races. Downside for them is...they're an Elf.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan said: "It's extremely important to understand that in Pathfinder Online your attributes aren't mechanical bonuses. They are throttle settings on the speed that you train skills. And skills don't have mechanical benefits, they are p[re]-requisites for earning achievements which usually but not always will give your character a mechanical advantage."
Got it. My question was more like: The elf gets +2 Int, which gives him an advantage in training Int-based feats. If I play a human, half-elf, or half-orc, do I get to pick one characteristic in which I get a similar advantage in training? So if I know I want to mostly be a fighter, I might choose +2 Str - not for mechanical benefits, but for the training benefits, to get certain Str-based skills and feats faster.
If certain races get bonuses, and other races get none - why would anyone play in the second group?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That seems like a pretty big deal to me.Hence my belief that races may end up being cosmetic-only. It feels "right" that everyone will be able to train anything and everything, in whatever order they choose, controlled only by pre-requisites.
I actually hope they go the stereotypical route with races and modifiers. PnP Pathfinder is pretty well balanced in how they spread them, and it adds some nice flavour to the game. For example, Elves make the best wizards naturally, but a couple of other races can equal them if they have the right genetics/upbringing (i.e. they allocate their bonus modifier to Int).
Races are pretty much balanced (generally 4 of 7 to each class) with a few oddball RPers playing a Dwarven Paladin or Elven Barbarian etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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... an elf wizard will ALWAYS have an Int 2 points higher than any other race who is a wizard...
This is only true for characters that have been playing the exact same amount of time, and who have chosen the same amount of +Int skills. This seems extremely unlikely.
The +2 Int that a new Elf character has over a new Human character is no different than the +whatever Int that a veteran Human character has over a new Elf player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think it COULD be just the opposite. To go with the discussed example, an elf wizard will ALWAYS have an Int 2 points higher than any other race who is a wizard(unless they also have a +2 Int mod). He will ALWAYS be able to get access to wizard(i.e. Int based) skills and spells significantly earlier than other races.
I doubt that very much. Nihimon is correct, it's a slight boost at character creation and that's probably it. It probably take about a couple days to get from 10 to 11. Maybe it takes 2 weeks to get from 11 to 12. Then it takes a month to get to 13. At that rate the +int elf and avg int human will spend about 90% of their careers at the same int. Even the character that starts in the hole, the -con elf, will be within a point or even of the +con dwarf more often than not.
Of course I just completely tossed #'s out of my bunghole, but that's pretty consistent with the leveling rates that have been confirmed and would have ability scores reaching epic status congruently.
Put it all together and it's something that would matter for a hyper specialized alt you don't plan on playing much, but feel free to make your main(s) any combination you damn well please.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt that very much. Nihimon is correct, it's a slight boost at character creation and that's probably it. It probably take about a couple days to get from 10 to 11. Maybe it takes 2 weeks to get from 11 to 12. Then it takes a month to get to 13.
Just extending this: say it then takes 6 weeks to train the skills that boost the stat to 14, and another 2 months to boost the stat to 15.
If there's a skill that needs 15 stat to train, then the race with the bonus can potentially start training that skill after six weeks, when the character's stat is 13+2 for the race bonus. The race without the bonus might need several weeks/months to get to a clean 15 stat.
It all depends on whether the small stat increment for each skill is fixed, or variable depending on what the stat is. When you train "Advanced librarian" does it always give you +.05 Int, whether if your Int is 13.43 or if your Int is 16.2?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The best way to look at the Ability Score Modifiers is in terms of how many weeks "head start" they represent. If a normal Human starts with Int 10, and a normal Elf starts with Int 12, then how long does it take the Human to get to Int 12? If the answer is "two weeks" (and I don't think it'll be that high), then a new Elf character is on par with a two-week-old Human character. Once they're on par, nothing else really matters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But say an Elf and Human start on the same day. After two weeks of following the same training regimen to get +2 Int from skills, the Human now has Int 12 and the Elf has Int 14, right? If at this stage there is a skill/feat that requires Int 13 or Int 14, the Elf can train it and the human cannot, not until he spends ____ weeks training. If they follow the same skill tree, the Elf always has a shortcut to such options. When the Elf is at 18 and the Human is at 16, how many weeks is the gap?
I think the easy balancing fix is to use the traditional Pathfinder model for racial stat bonuses. The Human and Human mixes would have one competitive stat assigned to a stat of the players choice, and the elder races have two competitive stats and one degraded stat, and those would be fixed. (Or let them shift *one* of the two competitive stats - but that might be less balanced.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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But say an Elf and Human start on the same day. After two weeks of following the same training regimen to get +2 Int from skills, the Human now has Int 12 and the Elf has Int 14, right?
Maybe, maybe not. I really don't think we know yet. It seems just as likely to me that it will take an Elf just as long to get from 12 (10 + 2) to 13 as it would take a Human to get from 12 (12 + 0) to 13.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But say an Elf and Human start on the same day. After two weeks of following the same training regimen to get +2 Int from skills, the Human now has Int 12 and the Elf has Int 14, right? If at this stage there is a skill/feat that requires Int 13 or Int 14, the Elf can train it and the human cannot, not until he spends ____ weeks training. If they follow the same skill tree, the Elf always has a shortcut to such options. When the Elf is at 18 and the Human is at 16, how many weeks is the gap?
There won't be an infinite number of skills with attribute requirements stretching out endlessly. At some point, you will have enough Int for anything in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems just as likely to me that it will take an Elf just as long to get from 12 (10 + 2) to 13 as it would take a Human to get from 12 (12 + 0) to 13.
I don't think training time for each skill would get longer if character had a higher stat. So the stat gain for each skill would have to be variable, depending on the character's current stat. I think it might be simpler to let humans and half-elves pick one stat to boost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There won't be an infinite number of skills with attribute requirements stretching out endlessly. At some point, you will have enough Int for anything in the game.
@Tuoweit, that's true enough. Maybe after a half a year or year and a half, both are at Int 18.
But if the elf starts with +2 Int, he might unlock a good feat like 'fireball' three weeks earlier than the other guy. He unlocks the next good feat 'ice storm' five weeks earlier. So he gets access to power earlier, all along the path, and thus accumulates wealth for himself and his settlement that much earlier.
If most of the players aren't role-players, then they probably go for the early power. Who knows whether they'll be playing the game in a year and a half. They'll go for the known greater power with the shorter time horizon. 95%* of mages will be elves if that's the only race that will get the Int bonus.
* number pulled from thin air for effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There won't be an infinite number of skills with attribute requirements stretching out endlessly. At some point, you will have enough Int for anything in the game.@Tuoweit, that's true enough. Maybe after a half a year or year and a half, both are at Int 18.
But if the elf starts with +2 Int, he might unlock a good feat like 'fireball' three weeks earlier than the other guy. He unlocks the next good feat 'ice storm' five weeks earlier. So he gets access to power earlier, all along the path, and thus accumulates wealth for himself and his settlement that much earlier.
If most of the players aren't role-players, then they probably go for the early power. Who knows whether they'll be playing the game in a year and a half. They'll go for the known greater power with the shorter time horizon. 95%* of mages will be elves if that's the only race that will get the Int bonus.
* number pulled from thin air for effect.
The Elf may indeed have a head start for Int-based stuff, he'll be behind other races in other areas. Int might be a character's main attribute, but I'm positive that players will have reasons to train skills linked to a wide variety of attributes (like extra hit points, carrying capacity, perception, etc...).