Greetings all, as the title probably notified I am our groups spy master in our Kingmaker game and I'm looking to start and lead a thieves guild on the side to increase money. The DM is ok with it, he has told me that I should check around for thieving types in our city and try recruiting them under a thieves guild. I'm a wizard, by the way.
I already have a rule planned for not stealing from out kingdom, so all thievery would be focused on stealing covertly from other kingdoms and such.
My problem is how I would go about recruiting them. Why would a thief want to follow someone and share profits instead of just taking profits for themselves?
Here's the ideas I have thus far and they're only so-so:
1 - Create useful magical items for them.
2 - Provide a measure of protection for them in the city.
3 - Possibly find a way to keep them secretive.
4 - More stable money, everyone pooling their gold with me the leader getting a bit of a bigger cut.
5 - Camaraderie. Having other thieves to back you up could be useful.
Any of these sound good? Any others I might be missing? Any pointers for building and leading a thieves guild?
Look at Ultimate Campaign for the downtime rules for setting up an organization and having a headquarters.
While that is intriguing it also seems very complicated and from what little I read, not very good at getting one much money. I will have to look into it more though, as I haven't understood it all yet.
Any suggestions until that understanding clicks?
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The downtime system isn't all that complicated. And as for making money, while normally, it would be slow because most are supply-demand profession based, you would be different because the majority of the money would actually come from doing heists. Protection rackets, gambling, theft, prostetution, cleaning... you name it. Also, with buying different rooms and having different organizations, they give you bonuses to your Profession (Thief) rolls at making even more money per week. It does require some cash to run, which you could try and cover with BP (other players allowing).
But again, you'd probably have to roleplay some of your heists to get the big bank. Art galleries, magic items, bank heists, highwaymanship. It's all up to you.
Also, check out Council of Thieves #5. It has a good section on Thieves' Guilds.
If I were your DM, I would love this idea! I would immediately begin plotting out how the citizenry would find out that the people who keep stealing their stuff is headed by a high-ranking government official!
The downtime system isn't all that complicated. And as for making money, while normally, it would be slow because most are supply-demand profession based, you would be different because the majority of the money would actually come from doing heists. Protection rackets, gambling, theft, prostetution, cleaning... you name it. Also, with buying different rooms and having different organizations, they give you bonuses to your Profession (Thief) rolls at making even more money per week. It does require some cash to run, which you could try and cover with BP (other players allowing).
But again, you'd probably have to roleplay some of your heists to get the big bank. Art galleries, magic items, bank heists, highwaymanship. It's all up to you.
I'll give it a better look for sure then. See what my DM feels like doing in terms of rules as well.
If I were your DM, I would love this idea! I would immediately begin plotting out how the citizenry would find out that the people who keep stealing their stuff is headed by a high-ranking government official!
Hey, since it won't be our kingdom getting stolen from and I'm already going to be using a "nickname", I'd be just fine with the DM making something out of it. Probably would be fun even.
Anyways, thanks for the responses everyone!
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I already have a rule planned for not stealing from out kingdom, so all thievery would be focused on stealing covertly from other kingdoms and such.
My problem is how I would go about recruiting them. Why would a thief want to follow someone and share profits instead of just taking profits for themselves?
You go to the local jails and give the thieves they have in lock up a choice: The gallows or the thieves guild.
You can also hold contests of thievery and skill to see if people are worthy enough to be inducted into the thieves guild, because the guild has some of the best paying jobs in the kingdom.
Here's the ideas I have thus far and they're only so-so:
1 - Create useful magical items for them.
2 - Provide a measure of protection for them in the city.
3 - Possibly find a way to keep them secretive.
4 - More stable money, everyone pooling their gold with me the leader getting a bit of a bigger cut.
5 - Camaraderie. Having other thieves to back you up could be useful.
Any of these sound good? Any others I might be missing? Any pointers for building and leading a thieves guild?
I'm assuming that you are running a kingdom that is probably going to be evil, correct? Perhaps a Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil alignment? Because if that is the case, I can see this working quite well and realistically. Your Kingdom's rulers could essentially the bosses of a vast criminal cartel.
Keep in mind that when you are running a vast criminal empire, you are going to get your hands dirty. Very dirty. It is pretty much inescapable. If you wish to ensure loyalty of people who are dishonest by nature, you will probably need to use a carrot and stick approach. The carrot would be the protection that you show towards your thieves. They are generally well-paid; as long as they remain loyal, you will have their backs; they are safe within your cities; if they are caught or killed, their families are well looked after.
The stick, on the other hand, would be far more sinister. Disloyalty is consistently and ruthlessly punished with torture and death. And if the thief who betrays you cannot be caught, you go after his friends, family and loved ones as a warning to others. If you don't start off as evil, I can imagine that several party members are going to end up becoming evil. I'd like to call it the "Breaking Bad" effect.
Some very good advice Lyons, very interesting too. While I would say we're evil at all necessarily, I would say we're practical and probably in the neutral area of alignment as a whole. I warn all of my informants that information links will be "taken care of" and from the reaction given, they know what I mean.
I love the idea of finding them in the jails and taking care of them through protection and helping their families. I'm not against "handling them" if they step outside of the given rules though.
I guess, while I'm a neutral wizard, I may come across as evil since none of the other players know my intention of running a thieves guild. I'm trying to make sure it doesn't affect them all that badly by making sure the thieves keep their hands out of the kingdom's pockets. Although I could see the other kingdoms that are getting stolen from, making trouble of some sort, or at least scoping us out. So, I'll probably use misinformation for that. I.e. Leaving one particular kingdom alone and having rumors seem to show they're the ones with the thieves.
I'm sure the party will find out eventually, if they have a big problem with it, then I'll cut the thieves guild out or cut the party members in.
Thanks again.
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I guess while your character sheet says "neutral wizard" you are, in fact, an evil wizard as you are stealing money from other people and hoping to blame other kingdoms for it.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Just don't have any illusions about your place in the morality pop charts.
Others have already said that running a thieves guild is not free money - your basically running a large, complicated business. As a DM I'd be happy for this to happen and for you to have your fun in the sun....whilst considering the law enforcement and investigative capabilities of your intended target settlements (probably factoring the various settlement stats and the highest divination spells available to the town).
Eventually you'll be rumbled, or 'encouraged to step down', so have an exit strategy from the get go.
Cheers
Mark
@ Mr. Grog - An interesting take to check out. I'll have to think this one over some more.
@ Mark Norfolk - I can see your point about the alignment aspect. Had I a way to be a spy master and actually make money on the side while staying neutral I'd consider it. Thus far I've found Kingmaker to be fun, be extremely low "treasure". Especially if you have a party that insists in putting all treasure you found at a fort towards the total BP.
As far as having others investigate me, I figured that might be a possibility. It'd be its own little side game. Me trying to hide myself as the person running it all (right now I'm not even known as a spy master except to the player who is king, to the others I'm just an advisor. Outside of the game they know though.) And then the DM trying to have NPCs figure out who is who.
I'm still contemplating actually doing this, but really, quests don't end with me getting much save for experience and story growth (which is fine) so I'm just trying to find fun ways for my player to get money outside of our King's (who's a sorcerer) blood money + masterwork transformation schtick.
Thanks all for the suggestions and insight.
It also depends on your motivation for founding the thieves guild. While a protection racket would certainly provide the most stable organization, if your goal is to increase your power as spymaster, you might want to focus on theft and intrigue, particularly against nobles and other government employees. By spying on them you can get blackmail, increasing your wealth and power. You could stage the kidnapping of nobles or their loved ones, and then have your "spies" locate the criminals hideouts, earning their gratitude and debt.
As a note on the downtime rules, since income is earned daily, and years pass over the course of the kingmaker game, you can make some really good money.