Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Do we actually have numbers yet for the change?
What were you using as the new benefit for playing up?
All this is based on existing benefit. I don't have new numbers. But I will redo the math using the new numbers next week.
The key point is unless Season 5 reduces gold for playing in tier (like playing a 5-9 with an 8th level character and choosing to play tier 8-9), then the shocking number (the max "in tier") won't change.
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James: If I'm understanding your table correctly, 'Average' is the mean total gold received over their career when the PC completes the level.
If this is the case, the average for level 2 of 5216.8 is confusing me. I would expect that the 'normal' way of exiting level 2 would be from playing six tier 1-2 scenarios, getting approx. 6 x 500 = ~3000 gp. Why is your figure over 40% higher? I'm sure there's an explanation, I'm just not seeing it.
It depresses me to think that there are PFS players out there who would view your 'Up' column as the target.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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level 2 of 5216.8 is confusing me.
Sorry, early on I wasn't including all levels that include the level like I did later. So level 2 wasn't one I went back to expand.
Level 2 Average is the average of level 1 plus the average of all modules that START at level 2. Specifically only:
We Be Goblins Too! (1 xp)
Feast of Ravenmoor
Masks of the Living God
Thornkeep The Forgotten Laboratory
Skull & Shackles The Wormwood Mutiny
All of those provide 1237 gp per 1/3 XP (3711 for a 3 xp module).
1505.8484848485 + 3711 = 5216.8484848485
But really it should have been:
3189.3260967888
So from there down reduce average by 2027 gp ;-(
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So really you should have labeled them 2-12 rather than 1-11. That would have been less confusing.
Thought about that, but thought it might be too confusing ;-(
But the award should be same for level 4 and level 5, since it's subtier 4-5. That's what I meant.
Yes but a 4th level can play some modules that a 5th can't and a 5th can play some a 4th can't.
The Average column is "what can they legally play" that contains a tier with their level in it. So 4th contains 3-4, 2-4, 4-6, 4-5, etc.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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If nothing else, you can only do it with one character.
essentially the Max is attained largely by ignoring scenarios and playing modules where you're at the bottom of the allowed levels.
Actually Character number 2 Max Up is 164k, so you only lose 9k gp for second character and probably another 5k for 3rd because the median is so high.
The only modules or AP used in the Max Up:
Shattered Star Beyond the Doomsday Door (11-13) played at 11th level.
Why? Because modules give LESS gold than Scenarios.
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I'd like to see the figures taking only scenarios into account. Or at least assuming that for average progression, players are playing at the intended level of the module (i.e. 4th for a tier 3-5 module).
Playing a module at the bottom of a tier is often self-correcting; all the gold in Golarion isn't going to save some 3rd-level PCs in 'the Midnight Mirror'...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'd like to see the figures taking only scenarios into account
I forwarded you the path of the Play Up, and the only module it uses is the 11th level (3 xp) module from either Shattered Sky or Skull and Shackle. No other low level modules will get used in any optimized way as they are not the top tier gold.
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It will however drastically reduce the average player's benefit from the occasional play up event. So it hurts only the normal players and only prevents the extreme gold optimized player from getting the extra 22729 he would net by the time he is 12th level from all his play up sessions.
Yeah...that is pretty much the conclusion I got as well after doing the math on my most egregious play up character as well.
Why? Because modules give LESS gold than Scenarios.
This is one thing I would like to see changed, although I doubt it will.
I have played one scenario of Thornkeep, but I just don't want to make a habit of playing modules as you not only get less gold, but less Fame as well.
I don't see why the gold can't even out per EXP point. I can see why they may not want to give out 6 PP, but I would be happy doing 2 EXP instead of 3 for a module.
And yes, I do understand it is not expected to have max Fame as you level, and I respect that, but if you play through all of Thornkeep (which I would have liked to have done), you automatically lose 10 PP than what you could potentially earn. And that doesn't include any faction missions you may not complete in other scenarios.
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James - your numbers seem to go quite wonky when you hit 7th level, with the median diverging from the average by leaps and bounds. What causes that? That would indicate a large number of very low gold Tier 7's (middle value much higher than average).
That may be throwing off the "MAX" as well - not sure how believable that is either, but one issue at a time.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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quite wonky when you hit 7th level, with the median diverging from the average
Similar issues on both, it is good to have more eyes.
I corrected this issue and the 3 other issues people who got the spreadsheet detected. Thankfully the average looks less horrible (a couple levels were not full 3 XP but just 1 scenario of gold.
Max also went up, and I have the max for Modules/AP if you play the 11-13 AP paths for your 11th level. If you do that one module then you can hit up your max "play up" gold to 218,406 gp.
I also migrated to using median() instead of manually (human powered) selected the three median values.
Average now compares with median better also.
1237----1505.8----1518-----1935-----5819
2487----3189.3----3042-----5646-----11524
3806----7124.7----6861-----10446----22319
5173----11680.7---10806----17202----32501
6570----17878.8---16518----25914----49684
9848----26420.1---25230----37701----66387
13599---37466.9---35487----52563----90562
18507---51526.5---49023----70329----114616
26016---68169.9---65469----93903----138498
34431---90707.5---88632----118078---162673
44559---114094.7--111972---150877---185607
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You actually get less gold for Up in the last level than for Max.
Possibly because you've run out of scenarios to play Up in? Looking a level or two earlier may be more informative then.
That is exactly the problem, at that point you have played most of the 7-11 at tier 10-11 so you can't get as many high awards.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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looking at the top and saying the problem is small is misleading.
I'm not sure I follow?
I'm also not sure I'm saying what you thing.
I'm concerned the "optimizers will just switch to Max In Tier" and still be generally much higher than the average PC.
128.50% 300.72%
177.03% 204.11%
146.62% 213.66%
147.27% 188.94%
144.94% 191.73%
142.70% 176.09%
140.29% 172.29%
136.49% 162.97%
137.75% 147.49%
130.17% 137.77%
132.24% 123.02%
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I realized it wasn't quite germane to the discussion, but here is the link.
Groups can still game the system by controlling party make up, but it does limit your ability to do so.
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Then your players need to get on the same page with each other and help each other out. I keep an array of PCs just for this reason. If the group is primarily level 1/2 I whip out my level 2 PC.
The people who are showing up more frequently should make some lower level characters to help out the folks who show up less. That way, everyone can stay in tier.
For the most part, there is no more "playing up". Only in very rare circumstances now can the PCs decide their sub-tier.
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How do you prove that?If a character plays down often he'll be between 50% and 20% behind WBL. There's plenty of math on that in other threads.
How do you prove THAT was what caused the party to fail, and not the fickleness of the dice? That it was you couldn't afford that +1, and not that you rolled a 6 when you needed a 16?
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I hate to break it to your players, but tier 1-5 and 3-7 are the most common scenarios to be run. Once PCs get to 8, it's important to have other characters to play while you are waiting for games for you higher level PCs.
Part of the entire point of society play is mixing and matching. It's not a homebrew run at the FLGS.
I've said this many times, but build trumps gold hard. Especially in PFS, where gold is limited. Sometimes you play at a table where you're going to get out-of-tier gold. It happens. But your character should not be made or broken by a 20% wealth differential. In fact, due to how the costs increase for magic items, your first 50% of wealth obtained is way more efficacious than the second 50%.
"Two of my five have expressed a desire to play their character from 1 to retirement"
Does that mean to the exclusion of other characters? If so, they are in for a hard time of it.
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How do you prove THAT was what caused the party to fail, and not the fickleness of the dice? That it was you couldn't afford that +1, and not that you rolled a 6 when you needed a 16?How do you prove that?If a character plays down often he'll be between 50% and 20% behind WBL. There's plenty of math on that in other threads.Seriously? Are you trying to argue that 20-30k worth of gear doesn't matter at all over the dozens of rolls made in every single adventure?
I'm not talking about an individual adventure. Sometimes they get in over their heads, sometimes it's the dice, and sometimes they knock down the monster exactly, or hit on the nose, or auto save vs dominate because they could afford the ioun stone/wayfinder. 30k Can prevent near TPK's from becoming TPK's and turn definite TPK's into at most a single death especially if it's 20-30k on 3 characters.
Because our group is 4 people most of the time we'll be forced to play down most adventures which will eventually catch up with the group and end it. How long it takes I'm unsure but sooner or later it WILL happen.
Yeah, I'm pretty much saying that a Tetori monk built with 30K less gear will dominate combat much more effectively than a random fighter build. A fighter build down 30K with syngergistic feats will still outperform the wealthier haphazard build.
I think you are massively overestimating the effect of PC wealth. PC wealth means little compared to builds, system mastery, and decision making.
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"Because our group is 4 people most of the time we'll be forced to play down most adventures which will eventually catch up with the group and end it. How long it takes I'm unsure but sooner or later it WILL happen."
I don't think you really understand how the system works. If the PCs are levels 4 and 5, they will play subtier 4-5 with the 4 player adjustment. If you are talking level 3, level 3's get pretty much the same money no matter what they do unless they are getting out of tier for a 3-7 game. 3-4 money and out of tier 1-5 money is almost the same. What's the problem here?
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So the group of 2,3,3,4 they are playing the 1-2 sub tier, and the level 2 gets 1-2 gold and all the others get out of tier gold, which is MORE than they would have received before. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to play 4-5 subtier in a season 4 or 5?
The level 4 player in particular is WAY better off under the new system.
The level 3 players are making the same money whether they play up or down.
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Considering we recently during an adventure had a group survive because a member had a +2 con belt (going to 1 off a full attack(He had fun mocking the "Why buy con over STR" player after)) followed up by him killing a monster which had KO'ed 2 players and as an undead was immune to much of the witches tricks I can say with assurances that gold was the sole reason the group avoided a TPK.
And the fact that he rolled high enough on attack and damage to kill the monster on that turn. Oh, and that the monster didn't roll a point or two higher.
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So the group of 2,3,3,4 they are playing the 1-2 sub tier, and the level 2 gets 1-2 gold and all the others get out of tier gold, which is MORE than they would have received before. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to play 4-5 subtier in a season 4 or 5?
The level 4 player in particular is WAY better off under the new system.
The level 3 players are making the same money whether they play up or down.
Yeah but most prefer to never play down more than 1 level with a character. So the 4th level tends to start a level 1 instead.
I know I'd prefer to play kyra over fighting creatures with 10hp with a 4-5 level character.
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So, yes, the maximum gold possible for any given PC has been reduced in general, because level 1 characters can't piggy back and earn 4-5 gold and level 3 can't earn 6-7, etc.
Having lost that maximum, the minimum has also been raised, as it is impossible for a level 3 to get 1-2 gold now. This makes it much easier to put tables together, not harder.
So who is exactly getting upset about what?
Also, if your group is consistent, the APL should only fall in between tiers around 20% of the time. Say for APL 3, yes, you are in between teirs, but for APL 1-2 and 4-5, its not even an option. You play the tier that your APL states.
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So the group of 2,3,3,4 they are playing the 1-2 sub tier, and the level 2 gets 1-2 gold and all the others get out of tier gold, which is MORE than they would have received before. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to play 4-5 subtier in a season 4 or 5?
The level 4 player in particular is WAY better off under the new system.
The level 3 players are making the same money whether they play up or down.
And the level 2 player is better off because his character has a chance to meaningfully contribute without an undue risk of death.
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Level 3 characters were just as likely to end up having to play 1-2 as go up to 4-5 in the old system. This usually meant I sat my level 3 character and made a new one. Now, I don't have to be so choosy. I'll take the gold hit to not have to be as picky about my tables.
As soon as a couple members of that group level, the APL will be 4 and then they'll be playing 4-5. So for a window of a few scenarios, they lose some money. You are not counting the money the highest level character would have made if they were playing tier 1-2 with a level 3 when everyone else was still level 1 or 2.
And that level 2 paladin sure seems viable for tier 4-5 until you run into opponents that aren't evil. Then suddenly, they don't look so hot anymore. I never liked ranged paladins due to feat starvation.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Level 3 characters were just as likely to end up having to play 1-2 as go up to 4-5 in the old system. This usually meant I sat my level 3 character and made a new one. Now, I don't have to be so choosy. I'll take the gold hit to not have to be as picky about my tables.
This. Ksenia played all her level 3 down, my last scenario with her was a 5-9 where we played up and I made most of that back. (and hid in the back, and slumbered mooks.)
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Overall, they smoothed out the gold curve more, and took out a lot (but not all) of group bickering. Most of the time, the decision is computed. I like this, as I prefer engineering solutions to "people" solutions. If your party is strong, rejoice! You'll need it desperately by tier 5-9. Especially since their 4 person adjustments sometimes aren't always the most helpful. Removing some easy-to-hit mooks but leaving the BBEG at the same power level makes many scenarios more difficult with 4 people.