Can multiple characters use a coup de grace on the same target simultaneously? Say a large humanoid had sleep cast on them. 2 melee character are flanking it. Can the one who goes first in initiative ready a Coup de Grace for when the character he is flanking with initiates a Coup de Grace?
If both characters get the benefit, how would it work?
Since damage immediately awakens a creature, you can only ever have one character Coup de Grace one enemy at a time?
Can you delay your turn to occur at the same time?
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Since damage immediately awakens a creature, you can only ever have one character Coup de Grace one enemy at a time?
Afraid so.
Can you delay your turn to occur at the same time?
Nope, turns have to be sequential. Closest you can get to simultaneous actions among more than one creature is by interrupting each other with readied actions, but as has been stated, CdG can't be readied.
You can't ready a coup de grace, since it's a full round action.
However, both characters could attempt coups de grace separately.
What you want to use is a Delayed action. "Held action" from quickest attacker.
This way they both coup de grace on the same initiative.Highest Dex goes first, as the large humanoid is considered flat footed he looses his Dex bonus so the attackers should both be able to strike before he has a chance to react to the first strike.
This would mean that the large humanoid doesn't loose the helpless condition till the end of that initiative rank or his Dex order in it (splitting hairs here), as at that instant in the round he is still considered helpless since he may have perceived the first attack, but until his dex order in the that initiative rank he really doesn't have the chance to react to that perception to "wake up".
At least that is how I would run it.
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Okay. So this is kind of sleep specific.
I don't really think it would work. Even if you full attack a creature (let's say, from stealth or invisibility), the first attack voids your hidden condition. The creature is 'aware' for the attacks after that.
With sleep, the condition causing the surprise is on the target instead of the attacker, but works the same way; after an attack, it is no longer sleeping.
The first hurdle to your problem is that a coup de grace is a full-round action. This is surmountable -- there's a feat (Deft Opportunist?) that turns a CDG into a standard action. That could be readied.
The greater problem is a basic system issue: Readied actions are generally considered to come before the actions that trigger them. Being able to disrupt a spell by making an attack of opportunity "while it is happening" is a large, but very rare exception to the normal discrete sequencing.
You can try to complete a CDG "when my ally performs a CDG", but you'll CDG, the enemy will wake up (if alive), then he will no longer be Helpless for your ally's attack.
Since damage immediately awakens a creature, you can only ever have one character Coup de Grace one enemy at a time?Afraid so.
Can you delay your turn to occur at the same time?Nope, turns have to be sequential. Closest you can get to simultaneous actions among more than one creature is by interrupting each other with readied actions, but as has been stated, CdG can't be readied.
I guess the immediately awakens the creature is fairly blunt it makes the delay tactic not so useful.
Try Tying up with silk rope that way the creature even after awakening is still helpless.
Is surviving CdGs that much of a problem? I could believe it at higher levels if a wizard with a dagger is trying to one-hit-kill CR 15 creatures with a DC 15~ save, but otherwise ...
no probably not a problem for making the kill.
I believe the OP was going for certain assurance of death to occur?
no probably not a problem for making the kill.
I believe the OP was going for certain assurance of death to occur?
Pretty much. GM is hinting pretty heavily that we will encounter large-sized (and bigger!) humanoids down the road, and I wanted to have something up my sleeve to end the fight as quickly as possible. I'm trying to convince the ranger to carry a 2h axe, but he seems convinced TWF is the way to be. Thanks for input y'all!
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Suppose we have a sleeping ogre, to receive a coup de grace from a second level rogue with a rapier (14 STR).
The ogre has 30 HP. Average damage = 14 (2d6 rapier, 1d6 sneak, +4 STR).
That does not kill the ogre outright, so the ogre has to make a DC 24 Fortitude save to survive. Mr. Ogre has a fortitude save bonus of +6, so he needs to roll 18 on the die. So an average CdG has a 85% chance of killing an uninjured ogre.
Worst case, the damage would be 9 points. Then the ogre needs to make a DC 19 fortitude save, so he needs 13 on the die. Then the coup de grace has a 60% chance to kill him.
Long story short, don't worry about it.
In the past year I've successfully saved vs. instakill from CDG at least twice from my group's rogue. My groups solution: get the gunslinger to do the CDG.
Pretty much. GM is hinting pretty heavily that we will encounter large-sized (and bigger!) humanoids down the road, and I wanted to have something up my sleeve to end the fight as quickly as possible. I'm trying to convince the ranger to carry a 2h axe, but he seems convinced TWF is the way to be. Thanks for input y'all!no probably not a problem for making the kill.
I believe the OP was going for certain assurance of death to occur?
A ranger will do more damage with TWF strangely enough if he builds it well. It is an exception to the norm of the two-handed weapon coming out ahead for DPR. This all assumes my math was correct before. :)
PS:He can still carry the 2h axe if he has the strength to do so and avoid encumbrance.
He applied sneak attack damage and still did not get the kill?
Did you roll a nat 20?
Pretty much. GM is hinting pretty heavily that we will encounter large-sized (and bigger!) humanoids down the road, and I wanted to have something up my sleeve to end the fight as quickly as possible. I'm trying to convince the ranger to carry a 2h axe, but he seems convinced TWF is the way to be. Thanks for input y'all!no probably not a problem for making the kill.
I believe the OP was going for certain assurance of death to occur?
A ranger will do more damage with TWF strangely enough if he builds it well. It is an exception to the norm of the two-handed weapon coming out ahead for DPR. This all assumes my math was correct before. :)
PS:He can still carry the 2h axe if he has the strength to do so and avoid encumbrance.
Seems correct conceptually. A TWF character should have higher DPR against foes that don't soak damage, while a 2-handed character should have higher DPR against foes with damage-soaking ability. Further, a 2-handed character should probably have better damage when both are forced to close in to attack and on AoOs.
I'm not really sure it works out that way though. Most martials seek to negate DR anyway, and I seem to recall the two-weapon warrior gets to make two attacks as a standard action. Might even get something like pounce for all I know.
Hammer The Gap is also pretty incredible if you can keep high to-hits against your foes.
One swings for a coup de grace while the rest of the group readies an action to do a regular attack right behind that action. They are not performing coup de grace, but the damage should mount from the free round of hits.