sure, i can come up with something, but balance is subjective.
give me a few minutes.
Okay, so looking through the first level spells for inspiration, I came across swallow your fear which, while not granting the exact bonuses I would apply, gives insight as to how powerful a class feature of this level should be.
With that in mind, here is my offering.
Bravery(Ex): Starting at the 2nd level, a fighter becomes a bulwark against which fear falters. When the fighter is subject to hit point damage or must make a save against a fear or compulsion effect, he gains a +1 morale bonus to will saves and a bonus to healing effects equal to his class level for rounds equal to half his class level. This morale bonus stacks to a maximum of +5, and each stacking effect refreshes the number of rounds the effect lasts.
So basically this gives the class a kind of momentum as rounds of combat play out, making the fighter stronger in more protracted battles. The second benefit is that bravery is now something that takes up a second level class feature and that is it, which really opens up the design space.
Bravery improving by +1 is not a 'level slot' class feature, any more then a spell suddenly doing 2 magic missiles instead of 1 is a level 2 spell slot.
Bravery is a level 2 ability that increases by level...just like spellcasting.
Armor Training is a level 3 ability that increases with level...like spellcasting.
Weapon Training is a level 4 ability that increases with level...like spellcasting.
A Fighter effectively has no class abilities for levels 5,7 9 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 (Armor capstone is just Armor Training with a CL 19 caster level).
THe level 20 capstone...is actually a Weapon Spec end of feat chain feat.
Technically, his bonus feats at the even levels are just his 'spell list'. And most of THOSE don't scale with level, either.
YOu want the Fighter to have level appropriate stuff, it has to scale, and not be a 'class ability' when it does. And you need to fill in the empty holes.
Can you imagine if "+1 Caster level to 1st level spells' was a class feature slot? That's what you're trying to impose on the Fighter, there.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, I understand the principle of what you're saying, but in this specific case the feats at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 are the class features, while Bravery is simply a little add-on. Bravery - or whatever replacement it gets - certainly needs a meaningful boost, but I don't know that replacing it with 5 full class features is right either.
I 100% agree Aelryinth, but it does take up space on the table, which I think at least has an effect on the perception of the classes balance.
Eh, there is that.
feats should be set aside separately, like spell slots are. Class features are class features.
And once you eliminate the cheesy +1, the fighter lacks class features at a lot of levels. I mean, seriously, using that logic I could put in upgrades to a wizard's familiar as class features. They'd look like they had tons of stuff going on. Eesh.
Not to mention he has the weakest bonus feats out of all the classes, since he has to meet pre-reqs with them. The feats not scaling is just pickles on the cake, too.
===Aelryinth
|
Lincoln Hills,
cool idea! now, baking Aelrynth's criticism into a solution as concerns your proposal, maybe in addition to an increase in 'ignore rounds' we could begin adding other status effects to the list at 6/10/14/18? these could either scale together (+3/+3/+3) or stagger (+3/+2/+1).
off the top of my head fatigued/exhausted and sickened/nauseated could be added to the list. what else?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meh, I made Bravery REALLY useful in my rebuild. I retitled it Resolve, and added sub-fuctions:
1) Brave -Grants the bonus to fear saves. BUT...synergizes and enhances IRon Will for the same amount. Many feats are enhanced by Bravery, especially skill or mental-oriented ones.
2) Skilled - Adds a new skill point per level and a class skill of the character's choice.
3) Versatile - Adds a new weapon to the fighter's primary weapon group.
4) Vigorous - adds the ability to convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage = Fighter level + Fort save, Bravery t/day. If you have Toughness, increase by Toughness amount. As you go up in level, it also gets rid of shaken, panicked, frightened, sickened, nausea, bleed, heals X in ability damage (but not ability drain), fatigue and exhaustion.
If the fighter is dropped, it automatically triggers to convert that damage to non-lethal, which stabilizes him.
In effect, it's almost as good as a lay on hands, but only for the fighter. Converting to non-lethal means he only actually 'heals' at level/hour, but it's still MUCH better then nothing.
And since 'real' healing does double effect, healing non-lethal AND lethal damage at the same time, he gets double out of healing spells.
If you're going to make it a useful class feature, then make it a useful class feature. One that solves multiple problems with the class. And the fact it's broader then a magical ability in some respects is a point for it, not against it. As it stands, its about equal to 2.5 feats...making it really nice, but certainly not broken, given the base it works on.
==Aelryinth
4) Vigorous - adds the ability to convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage = Fighter level + Fort save, Bravery t/day. If you have Toughness, increase by Toughness amount. As you go up in level, it also gets rid of shaken, panicked, frightened, sickened, nausea, bleed, heals X in ability damage (but not ability drain), fatigue and exhaustion.
If the fighter is dropped, it automatically triggers to convert that damage to non-lethal, which stabilizes him.In effect, it's almost as good as a lay on hands, but only for the fighter. Converting to non-lethal means he only actually 'heals' at level/hour, but it's still MUCH better then nothing.
And since 'real' healing does double effect, healing non-lethal AND lethal damage at the same time, he gets double out of healing spells.
==Aelryinth
This is a brilliant idea, I will likely implement this in my game in some form.
Seriously not trying to threadjack, R, but Aerlyinth provoked a though in my head related to the Bravery slot and what fighter should do with weapons, and this seems like the best place to post ideas interested in what to do with Bravery. For the record, I still consider the thematic intent of bravery to be important.
Weapon Master (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
At 6th level and every four levels thereafter (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level), the fighter again gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. In addition, at each such interval, he gains Weapons Specialization with a weapon for which he has already Weapon Focus (including the weapon he just selected for Weapon Focus, if so desired).
-or-
Weapon Master (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter chooses a weapon and gains +1 to attacks made with that weapon.
At 6th level and every four levels thereafter (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level), the fighter again chooses a weapon and gains a +1 to attacks with it. In addition, at each such interval, he chooses a weapon he has already selected and gains a +2 to damage rolls with that weapon (including the weapon he just choose, if so desired).
|
|
This is a brilliant idea, I will likely implement this in my game in some form.
4) Vigorous - adds the ability to convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage = Fighter level + Fort save, Bravery t/day. If you have Toughness, increase by Toughness amount. As you go up in level, it also gets rid of shaken, panicked, frightened, sickened, nausea, bleed, heals X in ability damage (but not ability drain), fatigue and exhaustion.
If the fighter is dropped, it automatically triggers to convert that damage to non-lethal, which stabilizes him.In effect, it's almost as good as a lay on hands, but only for the fighter. Converting to non-lethal means he only actually 'heals' at level/hour, but it's still MUCH better then nothing.
And since 'real' healing does double effect, healing non-lethal AND lethal damage at the same time, he gets double out of healing spells.
==Aelryinth
i second. i am curious to see Aelrynth the exact progression and language for getting rid of conditions.
also, Lincoln Hills, there is a monk archetype called martial artist which grants immunity to fatigue at 5th level. so, that can serve as a baseline.
Or, you know, the 'lame' oracle which is immune to fatigue. At level 1 or 2? It's the standard for Rage Cycling.
Ciaran, your idea isn't bad, but I personally consider it too complex and it would be hard to keep track of. It's functionally similar to, but inferior in progression, to a Ranger's FE bonus, although I'm assuming it stacks on top of Weapon Training.
Also, as you've written it, Weapon Focus stays at +1, but the +2 damage can stack on the same weapon every time. Not sure that was intentional.
I prefer to think of Weapon Spec as the feat which defines the Fighter. Nobody else should be able to get it, and Weapon Spec is how you say "I'm an Axer", "I'm a fencer", and "I'm an archer." Everything else is secondary to that defining term. No other class can really say that, because they don't have Weapon Spec.
Flavor, I know, but Core to how I see the Fighter.
===================
Vigorous Progression:
You use it 1/day per point of Resolve (currently have no feats which modify Resolve), which is 2, 6, 10, 14, 18. It is an immediate action, and can be used to counter an inflicted condition even if you would otherwise be unable to act.
Damage healed is Fighter level + Fortitude Save + Toughness bonus. This damage is converted to non-lethal damage. Additionally, at level 2 his Vigor removes or counters the fatigued, shaken, sickened, bleeding and dazed conditions.
Thus, at level 2, as an immediate action the Fighter can convert probably 10 pts of damage to non-lethal once a day. If he's dropped by a hit, this will probably keep him alive as it automatically converts some of the damage to non-lethal, but he'll still be unconscious. It will get rid of a small penalty to his health, or allow him to shake off an inflicted daze.
If he is healed for 6 pts, another 6 pts of non-lethal also goes away, popping him up 12 and getting him more quickly back into shape.
At level 6, his Vigor removes the staggered, frightened, exhausted and nauseated conditions, and an amount of ability damage equal to his Resolve modifier per ability score. (so, 2 pts per ability at this level).
His Fort save will probably be around +10, so a Fighter with Toughness will be converting roughly 22 HP 2 t/day, and those go away at 6 hp/hour.
At level 10, his Vigor removes inflicted blindness or deafness, stunning, panicked, and inflicted paralysis, and restores ability drain equal to his Resolve bonus per ability score. (so, up to 3 pts per stat at this level).
In lieu of healing, he can instead use his Vigor to end ongoing poison effects, entirely remove Negative Levels as if the time had passed and he had made his save, break any Mind-Affecting spell of 4th level or less afflicting him, or instantly break any grapples(pick one).
Note that he can use it to offset a Stun, even though when stunned you can't normally take actions.
The fighter's Marshal bonus immediately triggers for one minute against the source of any condition he removes, if applicable.
His Fort save will probably be +15 or so, so 35 hp, 3 t/day.
At level 14, in lieu of healing, Vigor breaks petrifaction, removes all curses, shatters polymorph and form-altering effects,break any Mind-Affecting spell of 7th level or less afflicting him, or counter/nulls any instant death or maiming effect (such as death spells, massive damage, or a vorpal attack). He still takes damage if appropriate, but is not insta-killed.
He may also use his Vigor preemptively to grant himself temporary hit points equal to the amount he would normally heal. These temporary hit points remain for one minute.
The Fighter gains his Marshal bonuses for one minute against all foes when he uses his Vigor.
His Fort save is likely to be at least +20, so 48 hp, 4/day.
At level 18, in lieu of healing, Vigor removes any and all mind-affecting conditions or adverse magical changes to the Fighter. It can shatter Imprisonment or Temporal Stasis, and instantly remove him from a Maze spell. It adds +10 to Strength checks to break open doors, bend bars or snap chains.
If used to heal, Vigor changes double the amount to non-lethal, and all such non-lethal damage is gone after one hour.
If used preemptively, the Fighter regains his BAB in temporary hit points for the one minute duration of the effect.
If his Marshal Chosen Foes are present, the Morale bonuses against them stack with the Morale bonus for using Vigor.
(Marshal bonuses are an aura-like effect granting Morale bonuses against specific enemies up to +2 in a radius equal to 10' per fighter level. i.e. his walking mass combat buff!)
Assuming a +25 Fort save:
at level 18, 5 times a day, he can convert to non-lethal approx. 122 damage, all of which is gone after one hour, and remove 5 pts of ability damage or drain and a host of conditions.
Or he can give himself 61 temporary hit points for one minute, regaining them at 18 hp/rd as they are used up.
Or he can remove a boatload of adverse magical effects on himself right now, instead of when they would normally wear off.
In another words, an appropriate high level ability for his capstone Resolve!
The idea behind Resolve, Vigor is: 1) the Fighter recovers from injury very quickly through pure vitality, and responds extremely well to magical healing if available.
2) Lessen reliance on clerics for healing and condition removal.
3) Provide a very good reason why he doesn't actually die if dropped below 0.
4) Defensive - be able to remove conditions inflicted by magic, and free himself from things, be they physical or mental
5) Scale so that the things protected against, and the amount healed, are level appropriate.
6) The confidence that he is able to take care of himself translates to a blanket Morale bonus at higher levels.
7) At later levels, his vigor is so strong it can actually deal with damage before he actually takes it, and prevents save-or-die effects from killing him.
8) The capstone Vigor must be a worthwhile 18th level ability.
==Aelryinth
Aaaaand one of the Training techniques/feats that dovetail with this ability.
Endurance (feat chain w Die Hard) (Training)
You gain a +4 bonus on certain checks, and can sleep in medium armor.
Fighter: Req: Great Fortitude or School save: Mettled
You also gain the benefits of the Die Hard feat (able to act at negative HP and auto-stabilize).
You gain +1 special use of Resolve/Vigor per day. It is only usable if you drop to negative HP, when it is automatically triggered.
(Mundane): +1 bonus to Constitution
(10th) At 10th level you add your Fighter BAB to your Con score to determine the negative HP level at which you die.
Mundane means the character has no magical ability, including point pools, UMD, su, spell-like or other magical stuff. Period. Mundane characters are assumed to out-work their magic-using peers in their areas of overlap, and get extra benefits from Techniques and feats because of it.
==Aelryinth
That was the quick 5 minute version and, as you noticed, intentionally similar to the ranger's FE progression. I like the first one better. But, while it addresses the weapon specialization theme of the fighter, it does not address or encompass the bravery theme, or the survivor theme that you have written about.
The survivor theme is one I have always wanted to be a part of my fighters. You know, where the hero rips the arrow out of his chest and catches his second wind, or he comes to after a moment of unconsciousness and we realize that he isn't dead after all. But, this doesn't exist in the numbers game that is the fighter's class features. I like what you have done. In addition to being a useful mechanic, it even looks like a fun one. However, I would figure out a way to simplify it. Considering that toughness is based on level and fortitude is (partially) based on level, the way you calculate hp seems a bit redundant.
Also, I don't know if I am reading it right, but it looks as though the condition removal is automatically successful. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Many but not all removal-type spells require a level check.
I'm comparing it to Lay on Hands. Lay on Hands does not normally require a check when getting rid of disease, poison, curses, or what have you.
Also, remember this affects only the fighter, where spells and lay on hands can affect anyone.
If you don't like the condition removal, you can set it equal to a heal check, or simply remove the conditions you don't think he should be able to remove from the list.
The reason I use Level + Fort save is simple...at low levels, your Fort save is usually 3-5 points higher then your level. If I just did twice level, at level 2 you'd be getting 4 hit points...wahoo? with level + Fort save, you get to add in your Con bonus, and if you have Great Fortitude, or a saving throw buffer, you get a little bit more healing. With Toughness adding +3 and Great Fortitude adding +2, your initial healing at level 2 would be 2 for level +5 Fort save +3 Toughness +2 Great Fort = 12 hit points, or about 1 cure serious wounds.
Your Fort save will naturally stay ahead of your levels, and it's yet another way to reward someone for having a good Con and Fort save.
The reason I include Toughness is to reward the Fighter for spending a feat on Toughness. Every feat a fighter takes should reward him above and beyond what the base feat does. One of the rewards for Toughness is you heal those extra hit points of yours just a little better then the next guy.
Of course, I also multiply your Toughness by your Armor Training, and those extra hit points are considered to be 'training for hit points' that the Fighter doesn't have to pay for. Heh.
I'm considering a modification to Skill Focus (Heal). Use your Heal modifier instead of your level for Resolve/Vigor, and use your Heal modifier instead of the +caster level for healing spells. That's in addition to the skill modifier of +3 and +6. So, rewarding the Fighter for taking both the Heal skill and spending a feat on it.
Also considering letting a fighter 'parry' a critical confirm roll with his Heal skill. That would be pretty cool.
==Aelryinth
|
|
(grit version 3):
A 2nd level fighter stares death in the face and is never frightened nor panicked - he becomes shaken instead, and may roll a new saving throw to shake any ongoing fear or demoralize effect once per round as a free action. Further, his sheer nerve bolsters his raw athletic performance - he may add half his fighter level as a morale bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.
Once per day, the fighter may turn an otherwise lethal attack into a glancing blow, converting all the damage from the attack into non-lethal damage, as an immediate action. This decision can be made after the fighter sees the damage roll. He gains an additional use of this ability every four fighter levels he attains, to a maximum of 5/day at 18th level. This is an extraordinary ability.
Whenever one of the fighter's allies (including himself) within 30 feet sustains a critical hit or fails a treacherous saving throw, he regains a use of his Bravery ability (subject to his maximum). Alternatively, the DM may reward the fighter with an additional use of the ability for performing a brave act that puts his person at serious risk in the service of one or more of his allies.
...
?
1) jump is gone buddy! Acrobatics checks made to jump. Seems like this should a separate ability though.
2) IMHO turning worse fear conditions into shaken should require a use of the ability, especially since you have a built in way to regain points. I'm a big fan of scaling the pool size the way you have done.
3) Since having a way to regain points turns the ability from X/day into a spend a point ability, I would rewrite the "once per day" bit.
|
|
1) true. just that "acrobatics checks made to jump" vs "jump check" sounds so overdone. also, being able to 'control your fear' without divine assistance is an exercise of psychometabolism - similar to the psionic discipline of the same name - or essentially a boost of pure Adrenaline (i didn't want to name the ability after arguably one of the best albums ever recorded...) which, is the same source of boost in athletic performance. 'morale' bonus was the closest approximation.
2+3) i think telling a player they "gain a pool of points" but "starting with one point" sounds strange. thus i reverted back to X/day - which had the side effect of leaving the fear/athletics bit 'always on' rather than 'while retaining 1 point' - which is the only mechanical difference. besides, in deviating from the ability score locus (rather than advancement locus) of Grit points, sticking to the exact same language seemed pointlessly loyal.
...
Aelrynth, you are a veritable wishing well of ideas. thanks for sharing here - i am going to steal some of your stuff and make it my own - (actually all of y/our posts are belong to paizo).
(grit version 3 - continued):
A 6th level fighter may use Bravery in a different way. Instead of turning a blow, he may counter an effect that would inflict a negative condition upon him instead. He chooses one from the list below, and selects another every even fighter level afterwards:
Confusion
Dazed
Fatigued
Pinned
Sickened
At 10th level, he adds the following to the list:
Domination (requires Confusion)
Exhausted (requires Fatigued)
Grappled (requires Pinned)
Nauseated (requires Sickened)
Stunned (requires Dazed)
At 14th level, he can counter any Death, Paralysis, or Petrify/Polymorph effect.
At 18th level, he can counter any Maze, Imprisonment, or Stasis effect.
...
I didn't want to use a 'recharge' method for my version, because that is essentially an uncontrolled power-up. I'd rather use Feats to increase uses/day, so the Fighter knows what he has to work with.
No worries Rainzax, use what you like.
==Aelryinth
|
|
that is a good point.
what about instead of no recharge mechanic there be a conservative one?
like, just the 'act of bravery' and that's it. thus, the entire recharge hinges on DM discretion.
or just 'whenever an ally within 30 feet falls below 0 HP' - that is, just in case of emergency?
any other ideas for a more conservative recharge?
NOt really any ideas. Any recharge mechanic basically doubles the use of the ability at lower levels, and the player will engineer the circumstances so it happens at higher levels. Points/day become rather meaningless quickly.
It's one of the reasons I don't like grit and panache and things like them. Basing off crits means, for instance, that you are skewing to a particular subset of weapons, and discriminating against any guy that wants to play an axer. Basing off skills means the skill gets spammed, and circumstances contrived to use it.
Basing off DM fiat, you may as well just use hero points instead, you know?
Effectively, a recharge mechanic means "If you don't have to use it, you've got x/day. If you do have to use it, you could get tons." This is especially true at the lower levels, when the 1 or 2 pts/day becomes 3, 4, 5 or more. Why have a daily limit, then? You may as well have a Bravery/Resolve pool modeled off Grit, throw up your hands, and call it a day.
==Aelryinth
|
|
maybe there is no grey area.
but i think at the liberal extreme, you have basing it off of critical hits or skills etc.,
and at the conservative extreme, you have basing it off pure DM fiat ('brave acts' and whatnot).
i guess i'm looking for a middle area. generally, i agree with your platitude, but i'm wondering if there is a sweet spot that minimizes (not eliminates) gamism in the name of increased interactivity/more dynamic mechanics.
|
|
Tenth time is a charm.
(Version Ten):
Fighters develop a strong fight or flight response. Whenever one of the fighter's allies is felled by one of his enemies (killed, knocked unconsciousness, or dropped to negative HP), the fighter gains a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws for 10 rounds (1 minute). The benefit kicks in automatically, and rises by +1 for every four additional fighter levels he has attained, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
In addition, as an immediate action, when the fighter fails a saving throw which bestows one or more harmful conditions as an effect, he may suppress the above benefit to instead delay the onset of one of the conditions for a maximum number of rounds equal to his bravery bonus.
This is an extraordinary ability.
I'll bite
1) The first comment is a matter of preference, or tradition, or whatever. The CRB fighter has no class features that have a duration or uses per day. Not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing, but I am saying that the CRB fighter is always "on". The 1 minute duration goes against that. As an alternative I suggest that the bonus is gained when the fighter is with X feet of an ally who becomes dead, dying, disabled, unconscious, etc. and has no duration. But maybe it ends when he is no longer "in the heat fo combat" or the allly is stabilized, returned to positive hp. No sure what kind of ruler to hold this against.
2) I suppose I have the ssame concern for the second half. The duration is not inherantly wrong, but is contrary to what is normal for the fighter. Not sure what to suggest here.
3) Bravery as a class feature for the fighter is thematically strong, and that is something I do not undervalue. Both the original version and yours have that going for it. Bravery as it originally appears is mechanically weak, while yours is mechanically stronger. Also a good thing. I suppose what I find lacking in yours is merely a matter of personal preference, but I find the utter simplicity of the CRB's bravery to be a good thing. I'm not sure where a good compromise is between "always on", mechanically competitive, and simple.
I'm not sold on using bravery as a bonus to saves; I'd rather see the fighter simply get all good saves. However, the condition stuff can still be retained, we just need to tweak it.
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the fighter's bravery allows him to reduce severity of all [fear] effects he is subjected to by 1 step (cowering to panicked; panicked to frightened; frightened to shaken; and you are immune to effects that normally cause the shaken condition). For every 4 class levels thereafter, the severity is reduced by an additional step; at 14th level you are immune to all [fear] affects.
Strong Stomach (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the fighter is also inured to the sight of blood, and is immune to effects that normally cause the sickened condition. If you fail a save against an effect that normally imposes the nauseated condition, you are sickened instead. At 18th level the fighter is immune to nausea.
Action Hero (Ex): The fighter's bravery and tenacity in battle allows him to force himself to act even when others would be helpless. Starting at 8th level, when subjected to an effect that normally causes paralysis, the fighter is stunned instead; effects that normally cause stunning daze him instead, and effects that normally impose the dazed condition render him staggered for the same duration. You are immune to special attacks and spells that normally impose the staggered condition. For every 4 levels thereafter, these effects are reduced by an additional step (i.e., at 20th level, the fighter is immune to dazing, paralysis, staggering, and stunning).
|
|
Ciaran Barnes,
I too struggle to find the right ratio between "always on" mechanics : mechanical power : and mechanical simplicity. This version veers towards the middle of those three. That said, I really like your proximity suggestion - (visions of an evil fighter BBEG who hangs out in the graveyard all day...). But, no matter how you cut it up (hard time duration, soft time duration (("per encounter")), proximal duration), "always on" simply has no compromise. So, it'e either #All-Good-Saves or #CHA-Bonus-To-Saves or #Plus-X-To-Saves; or it's not.
maybe a dismiss mechanic? (a la Saving Finale bard spell)? compared to a suppression mechanic, this'd cut down on post-delay bookkeeping...
The meta-design goal behind this one is to incentivize tanking from a reverse perspective (If, as the evil wizard BBEG, you know that a fighter's saves receive a significant boost when you target his ally, to which course of action are you referred?) as well as create narrative heroics (literally when the going gets tough, and the party starts to suffer casualties, the fighter becomes more difficult to dispatch with means aside from damage; the fighter gets going!). Which is also to say I see the ability as a boost of adrenaline; a fighter's response to increased stress.
"Does this justify the word count?" is my lingering question.
Kirth Gersen,
Giving the fighter all good saves, to me, is the monk's "thing." Or ought (but that is another discussion...). So, spreading it out over levels incentivizes class loyalty, which is another design objective.
Also, I like that the secondary ability is not only effective against all sorts of harmful conditions (Entangled, Dominated, Petrified, etc), but also that it's greatly expanded utility sits under a single class feature, rather than piece-mailing them out. Though I definitely cede that your suggestions are richly detailed and thought out and thematic. If it wasn't for my strong inclination to mostly rebuild mechanics keeping original titles where possible, I might incorporate your suggestions. But I fall somewhere between minimal and maximal alterations, and feel a super-boost to Bravery could work some wonder to a class often outshined.
Without straight copying the monk or paladin, I want the fighter to have incredible defenses reminiscent of older editions, and done so in a way that encourages a modicum of interactivity within the game. Thus the "felled ally" trigger.
probably my biggest oversight is making the ability too good to trade out via archetype?...
thanks for your input gentlemen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is only the monk's thing in 3E. In 1E, the fighter ended up the king of saving throws.
Seriously, as the only totally non-magical class, all good saves should be the core of the fighter. he's the one that actually needs them!
Kirth's condition immunities are an interesting approach. COmbined with all good saves, it really turns the fighter into the tank character of the party.
I'm still opposed to stuff that triggers to activate it with weird conditions the fighter can't control, especially as class abilities. If the fighter wants to blow a feat on something like that, hey, more power to him. But for ALL fighters? It just doesn't fit.
==Aelryinth
|
|
but this ain't 1E no more this is 3E so we gotta work with what we got. I automatically vet anything Core/Advanced/Ultimate (and Paizo) in my home game. I want the Fighter to be able to stack up against those classes erstwhile carving (reclaiming, really) his own thematic niche.
In short, though I am certainly too lazy to rewrite the entire system in whole (Kirth) or in part (Aelrynth), hypocrite that I am, I am not so lazy as to just add flavorless bonuses to the class chassis. I think, for example, inventing some ability, such as:
Tactical Brilliance (Ex):
The fighter adds his Intelligence modifier to all his saving throws.
: or, simply boosting all saves to Good, is uncreative design, altogether, pure and simple.
To me, this thread is about looking for inspired design - something that hasn't already been done - and repackaging it under the title "Bravery" so that it packs a punch.
that said, I think I am for the "dismiss" rather than "suppress" mechanic. like:
(version 10.5)
Fighters develop a strong fight or flight response. Whenever one of the fighter's allies is felled by one of his enemies (killed or knocked unconscious), the fighter gains a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws for 10 rounds (1 minute). The benefit kicks in automatically, and rises by +1 for every four additional fighter levels he has attained, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
In addition, as an immediate action, when the fighter fails a saving throw which bestows one or more harmful conditions as an effect, he may the above benefit to instead delay the onset of one of the conditions for a maximum number of rounds equal to his bravery bonus. This is an extraordinary ability.
...
cheers.
The problems with Bravery, in my view, are that:
1) Bonuses to fear are not as reliable a defense as are bonuses to at AC, attack, or saving throws. In some campaigns the bonus to fear saves could come up enough times that it will make a difference, but I believe it is some likely that it will come up rarely enough that the fighter might not even notice the class feature is there.
2) The fighter is brave... Or rather, he is supposed to be. In the grand scheme of things however, the fighter's base will save and his bravery bonus make him less brave than a wizard, cleric, bard, etc. of equal level.
3) The paladin is brave... to the extend that post level 3 she lacks fear completely, which may disqualify her from being a living creature, depending on who you ask. The paladin has a better save vs fear, but no longer needs it by level 4. Before level 4, PCs face fewer saving throws. Funny.
So you can simply double the fave vs fear, which will make the fighter more brave than a wizard, but will still relegate the ability to "who cares" if the save isn't important to the campaign. Rainzax, I kind of like you approach - its more of an active ability than the CRB version, which could allow the player to wield it like a weapon. I guess I'm not sold on the execution of the ability.
Anyhoo, a new idea...
Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter becomes increasingly courageous. Any time he would make a Will saving throw against fear, he instead rolls 1d20 and adds his fighter level level and his Wisdom modifier to determine the saving throw result. If he succeeds on a saving throw against fear, he gains a +1 morale bonus to AC, attack, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 round. At 6th level and every four levels thereafter, the morale bonus and the number of rounds it lasts increase by 1.
Improved Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, when a fighter sees one of his allies become dead, disabled, or unconscious from an attack made by an enemy, he can choose to make a saving throw against fear (DC = 10 + 1/2 the enemy's Hit Dice + it's Charisma modifier). If he succeeds, he loses the morale bonus if he fails to end his turn nearer to or adjacent to the ally, or if he fails to end his turn nearer to or to attack the enemy. If he fails this saving throw, he becomes shaken for 1 round even if he is immune to fear or the shaken condition.
Why not make Bravery grant rerolls vs will save effects in general? Change the name to, for instance, Fighting Spirit or any other appropriately dramatic name.
At 2nd level, you get 1 reroll of any will save per day. And you go on and on with the same progression as bravery, granting you 1/day instead of crappy +1s, which is must more valid when you remember abilities such as challenge and so on.
This wouldn't give the fighter a good will save progression per se, but it would increase the net gain and profit he would gain from even just a +1 bonus to his will saves.
P.S.
Possible names to justify the flavor of the ability:
Fighter's Pride
Failure is not an Option (Too long, meh.)
Heroism
----------------------------------
You could say rerolling a failed save requires a standard action, for instance. As bravery improves, the action could decrease until it's no more than a measly immediate action at its finest.
So, spreading it out over levels incentivizes class loyalty, which is another design objective.
That "objective" has been achieved and then some. Pathfinder punishes you to hell and back if you try and multiclass. All your class features stall out, your spells don't improve, you even lose the "favored class bonus," adding insult to injury. Seriously, multiclassing is so bad that Paizo admits straight-up that it's totally nonfunctional -- that's why they're now publishing books full of nothing but "hybrid classes" to try and bridge the gap.
I'd suggest that we spare no more thought to "encouraging class loyalty," given that it's something that's pretty much 100% expected and encouraged in the system as it is.
|
|
Kirth,
(viz multi-classing)
for spellcasters, I agree completely.
for martials, I sometimes agree. monk and fighter should not be offering both BAB and all-good saves on a 1-level dip. BAB is kind of like martial "caster level" and so interestingly the martial-caster disparity is oddly reversed when it comes to multi-classing as it currently stands.
Ciaran,
your ability, though thematic, encourages gaming spells. An ally spellcaster can now cast a fear spell on the fighter and it sorta turns into a rage spell! woops.
to me, "when an ally falls" is harder to game that way. (not impossible though, admittedly... you'd have to be one cruel sob)
The ally/gaming part is easily fixed by changing the wording. No biggie though - just an idea I had while typing that out.
|
|
Changed "felled ally" trigger to "bloodied ally" trigger, which now includes himself, and added a surge bonus to a physical skill check. I think I will set this in stone now. comments?
:
At 2nd level, through sheer nerve, the fighter can grant himself a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws that lasts for 1 minute. He may activate this ability as a swift action up to 1 round after one of his allies (including himself) is reduced to less than half their normal hit point total by one of his enemies. This bonus rises by +1 for every four additional fighter levels he has attained, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
The fighter may dismiss the above bonus as an immediate action to gain one of the following benefits. He may reactively suppress a negative condition bestowed upon himself for 1 round per bonus, or, he may apply double the morale bonus to a single Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check (including skill check) he makes this round. Doing either leaves him fatigued for 1 minute afterwards.
I like the versatility, but dislike the overall wordiness of it and the 4e bloodied.