Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't think the technology supports .1 second timing required for actiony dodges without shifting hit detection from the server to a client. That has never been done well, and the reasons why are well documented.
It can still be well-timed dodge if you need to preact to your opponent rather than react to their actions; commit to evading at the exact same time as they commit to the attack.
Goblin Squad Member
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And Dark Souls is an excellent example of an Action RPG. Are you saying you would like PFO to be a game where if you lack reflexes as a player, you should be required to play a heavy armour character?
I was very clear about how the system Stephen described appeared to be much slower than DS, which is itself not nearly as reflexive as you seem to think it is.
Bottom of the line, they've described a system that allows for changing the outcome of an attack simply by moving. This means the end result is not pre-determined at the time of the button press hitting the server. ANY system that operates like this is going to favor those who read the on-screen action accurately.
What I also, very clearly, stated was that if you are not good at reading a situation, at anticipating what is going to happen next, that wearing heavy armor (among other forms of strong defense) was one of a number of solutions for improving your effectivity in combat.
This is true regardless of whether combat is boringly slow.
I honestly feel like this is a great example of jumping to the reply button with a knee-jerk reply instead of reading the whole post. Or the (admittedly long) post before that.
It can still be well-timed dodge if you need to preact to your opponent rather than react to their actions; commit to evading at the exact same time as they commit to the attack.
This. Thank you. It is exactly what I am talking about when I mention reading the on-screen action, and anticipating your opponents next move.
I don't think the technology supports .1 second timing required for actiony dodges without shifting hit detection from the server to a client. That has never been done well, and the reasons why are well documented.
You are absolutely correct, even on really good connections that is barely feasible (sub-100ms round trip packet times, ie.. ping of 40ms or so) and that's not safe to program for.
I view such examples as DS as a baseline from which to extrapolate a slower form of combat. I actually used the example of a 500ms+ response time as being far more likely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly feel like this is a great example of jumping to the reply button with a knee-jerk reply instead of reading the whole post. Or the (admittedly long) post before that.
So you honestly feel like insulting me for having a different view-point from you. How delightful of you.
Having a slower system sometimes exacerbates the problem. It makes timing things properly more difficult. I don't like systems where it's frustrating for me to miss the small window you have to initiate a dodge in.
I'd like my smart, dodgy rogue to be able to read the enemy's attack and properly dodge because she's honed her mind and reflexes to it. I don't always have the mental or physical reaction times to reliably hit the dodge key at the right times. In the table-top game I don't have to throw the dice at the right time and direction for my rogue to use her AC or reflex save.
I'd like to tell my character to use attacks and where to move. I don't want to micromanage her defenses.
And Dark Souls is an excellent example of an Action RPG. Are you saying you would like PFO to be a game where if you lack reflexes as a player, you should be required to play a heavy armour character?
Are we talking about physical or mental reflexes? As in, the physical ability to quickly do an action based on a specific stimulus, or the ability to react to what your enemy is doing, analyze it, and decide on the proper response quickly?
I imagine that depending on your role you should require both to varying degrees.
A rogue or monk would be more heavy on physical reflexes while a spellcaster would be more dependent on mental reflexes. Both would definitely require the mental reflexes (this isn't an FPS after all) while the skills you have and your feat choice would determine how much "twitch" you would require.
I don't see GW removing the requirement of physical reflexes for classes like Monk or Rogue simply because some people might not have them as developed as others.
Of course, I'm just speculating. But based on the responses you'll require physical skill in controlling your character in addition to the mental ability to manage all your abilities and what your opponent is doing.
If you have the ability to avoid an attack, then you'll be at a disadvantage if you don't when you logically should like a big, slow attack (although Opportunity should make it a dilemma rather than a must-do).
I don't think the technology supports .1 second timing required for actiony dodges without shifting hit detection from the server to a client. That has never been done well, and the reasons why are well documented.
It can still be well-timed dodge if you need to preact to your opponent rather than react to their actions; commit to evading at the exact same time as they commit to the attack.
I expect that full control of your input device will be a prerequisite for playing at the top level, because you will have to make decisions and implement them quickly, but that the 'implement them' step is not going to be the difficult portion of that loop.
I honestly feel like this is a great example of jumping to the reply button with a knee-jerk reply instead of reading the whole post. Or the (admittedly long) post before that.Having a slower system sometimes exacerbates the problem. It makes timing things properly more difficult. I don't like systems where it's frustrating for me to miss the small window you have to initiate a dodge in.
I'd like my smart, dodgy rogue to be able to read the enemy's attack and properly dodge because she's honed her mind and reflexes to it. I don't always have the mental or physical reaction times to reliably hit the dodge key at the right times. In the table-top game I don't have to throw the dice at the right time and direction for my rogue to use her AC or reflex save.
I'd like to tell my character to use attacks and where to move. I don't want to micromanage her defenses.
At what point would the skill come in though? There's the gear, the skill/feat choices, the planning that goes into them like deck building. But without micromanagement of abilities, or situations where split second decisions are necessary, what determines the outcome of a PvP battle besides gear/build and luck?
I'm all for the idea that much of what occurs is based on your character's prowess itself like the tabletop. But if that is the majority of what determines the outcome, to the almost exclusion of any player input during combat, then it would personally leave me with a shallow sense of victory or loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you honestly feel like insulting me for having a different view-point from you. How delightful of you.
Having a slower system sometimes exacerbates the problem. It makes timing things properly more difficult. I don't like systems where it's frustrating for me to miss the small window you have to initiate a dodge in.
I'd like my smart, dodgy rogue to be able to read the enemy's attack and properly dodge because she's honed her mind and reflexes to it. I don't always have the mental or physical reaction times to reliably hit the dodge key at the right times. In the table-top game I don't have to throw the dice at the right time and direction for my rogue to use her AC or reflex save.
I'd like to tell my character to use attacks and where to move. I don't want to micromanage her defenses.
A video game has to play like, you know, a video game. If you want a game where mental/finger reflexes do not count at all then stick to table top, turn based games and MUDs.
What Cheney has described so far sounds like a fun combat system to learn and get the hang of. It also sounds like mental agility will trump dexterity, but not by much.
Practice helps also. Not fair to complain if you don't put in the practice and by the sound of "slower throws my timing off" it really seems like you just don't practice.
I don't think the technology supports .1 second timing required for actiony dodges without shifting hit detection from the server to a client. That has never been done well, and the reasons why are well documented.
It can still be well-timed dodge if you need to preact to your opponent rather than react to their actions; commit to evading at the exact same time as they commit to the attack.
To me this sounds like any "twitch" reactions will be based on your ability usage to avoid attacks or position yourself, while any WASD style movement will only reward you if you're planning a few steps ahead of your opponent and trying to predict their actions.
I like the idea of that combination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly feel like this is a great example of jumping to the reply button with a knee-jerk reply instead of reading the whole post. Or the (admittedly long) post before that.So you honestly feel like insulting me for having a different view-point from you. How delightful of you.
*sigh* Go read what I wrote and how you replied, then feel free to PM me how my observation was inaccurate.
You are more than welcome to your own opinion. Just don't be surprised to be called on responding only to the first sentence in a post, when your response is fully addressed in the balance of that post or earlier in the discussion. I would very much like to further enjoy the wonderful discussion happening in the variety of threads here, but it does somewhat depend on a certain completeness to addressing the concerns we see.
Anyways... There is delicate balance to be struck between a character's stats doing all the work for the player and the player needing to rely on said stats in order to be effective in the world of tabletop RPGs/MMOs wherein the character exists but the player does not. There is also that inherent difference between having a good spacial representation and operating in theater of the mind. If you have a game board to work with, and an ability to move out of the way of an attack as an interrupt, it's not unfair to think that one would take advantage of this. No change when you can do so with more precision given a more accurate spacial representation.
Nihimon, I think having both is important. It would be less exciting to be limited to only one though, I agree with that much.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't think the technology supports .1 second timing required for actiony dodges without shifting hit detection from the server to a client. That has never been done well, and the reasons why are well documented.
It can still be well-timed dodge if you need to preact to your opponent rather than react to their actions; commit to evading at the exact same time as they commit to the attack.
To me this sounds like any "twitch" reactions will be based on your ability usage to avoid attacks or position yourself, while any WASD style movement will only reward you if you're planning a few steps ahead of your opponent and trying to predict their actions.
I like the idea of that combination.
I certainly wouldn't think that attack animations would be long enough to dodge, like they are in action RPGs. Does anyone think that the animations shown at the end of the last video are long enough that someone is likely going to be able to see the animation start while they are in range and react quickly enough to move out of range before the attack hits?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly wouldn't think that attack animations would be long enough to dodge, like they are in action RPGs. Does anyone think that the animations shown at the end of the last video are long enough that someone is likely going to be able to see the animation start while they are in range and react quickly enough to move out of range before the attack hits?
I found the animations in the video a tick too "fast". We'll know more later. Cheney also said that lesser attacks cannot be defended through twitch, so we may have just seen very low level thrusts that aren't meant to be. It's the longer animation big hits where twitch matters.
I can say that if the combat goes at about the same speed as say, GW2, then I won't have any problems with the twitch and I am by no means quick fingered. The Neverwinter combat system is another "slow twitch" game and it's a comfortable speed. I will still have a ceiling on how good a PvP'er I am because I'm a clicker, but I expect to compete under what they are proposing.
Being familiar with Pathfinder combat systems appears to be an advantage here. Attacks of opportunity , the 5 step drop and even "round" combat will be much easier to get the hang of if you know the concepts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly wouldn't think that attack animations would be long enough to dodge, like they are in action RPGs. Does anyone think that the animations shown at the end of the last video are long enough that someone is likely going to be able to see the animation start while they are in range and react quickly enough to move out of range before the attack hits?
Some of them, most definitely, especially if you're expecting them, others probably not unless you're expecting them, and others fall into the realm of expecting and having 2-3 frame reaction times. Very acceptable imo. Mind you I do not have 2-3 frame reaction times! Haha
If you want a game where mental/finger reflexes do not count at all then stick to table top, turn based games and MUDs.
Hah! I crested 120wpm early in my life thanks to MajorMUD. =) That was all because of PvP though, certainly not PvE. ;) Ahh.. good times.
I certainly wouldn't think that attack animations would be long enough to dodge, like they are in action RPGs. Does anyone think that the animations shown at the end of the last video are long enough that someone is likely going to be able to see the animation start while they are in range and react quickly enough to move out of range before the attack hits?
It seems like the only way to avoid one of those attacks would be to begin moving during the previous attack. The only real benefit I see is if you predict the next attack accurately enough, and decide avoiding that attack is worth getting hit while under the Opportunity debuff. If you know your opponent's combinations well enough you could probably avoid the "finisher", or one that takes advantage of any buffs/debuffs between you two and hits hard.
Maybe if you kept moving enough that you avoided just enough attacks consistently, WASD style dodging at full speed could be worth it. I can see hitting your enemy with movement impairing effects and trying this could work if you time your movements right, but that's situational. Still a nice skill to have at the right times.
Although, if I had an ability that made me jump back/sideways I could probably dodge one of the slightly slower attacks like the first downward chop the Fighter uses, or the big swing of the ogre. That would be useful in jumping out of your enemy's range just before they hit you with a powerful combination.
I will still have a ceiling on how good a PvP'er I am because I'm a clicker, but I expect to compete under what they are proposing.
Off topic: Get a mouse with a bunch of buttons, and make use of the shift key as a modifier if you still don't have enough. I used to have the same problems as a clicker, but this style using your mouse buttons actually gives YOU the advantage over someone who utilizes keybindings on their keyboard.
Clicking makes you disadvantaged since you can't consistently focus on the battle and control the camera movement simultaneously.
Keybinding while using WASD makes you disadvantaged because you have to move your fingers from WASD just to hit your skills.
Getting a mouse with a lot of buttons doesn't really give you an advantage as it much as it removes physical limitations that hinder you, since you have zero conflicting movements with your fingers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will still have a ceiling on how good a PvP'er I am because I'm a clicker, but I expect to compete under what they are proposing.
Off topic: Get a mouse with a bunch of buttons, and make use of the shift key as a modifier if you still don't have enough. I used to have the same problems, and this style actually gives YOU the advantage over someone who utilizes keybindings instead of clicking.
Clicking makes you disadvantaged since you can't consistently focus on the battle and control the camera movement simultaneously.
Keybinding while using WASD makes you disadvantaged because you have to move your fingers from WASD just to hit your skills.
Getting a mouse with a lot of buttons doesn't really give you an advantage as it much as it removes physical limitations that hinder you.
Yes, I have considered that and have really just been waiting for a game I want to be good at badly enough to make the investment. Thanks for the opinion, I wanted to someone to tell me it works really well before laying down $100 on a mouse like that;)
If I can get that down i might actually be pretty solid.
You can get a pretty basic mouse for under $30 that has up to 5 additional buttons on it... with using a shift modifier, that's 10 hot keys without ever having to move your fingers off of WASD. If your keyboard allows easy access to Alt, that's 15. If you add in Q and E that's 21 hotkeys without ever moving your fingers or taking your eyes off of the monitor once you get some practice.
It's really the way to go. If you buy a more expensive gaming mouse, you can have 30+ hotkeyed abilities without really moving your fingers off of WASD or your eyes from your monitor with a little practice.
It makes an enormous difference.
suggestions on one you like?
The basic Logitech 5 button mouse(r-click, l-click, right and left side buttons, plus mouse wheel click & left/right lean) is the one I use on my lap top and is suitable for basic gaming needs. It's the one that gives 21 hotkeys when used with 'Q' and 'E' plus shift and alt modifiers. Logitech has more expensive gaming mouses that give many more options. They make durable mouses that can really last - my wireless laser laptop mouse has thousands of gaming hours on it with zero problems.
Razor also makes an amazing gaming mouse, but they get a bit pricier.
The only reason I bought the more expensive Logitech gaming mouse for my home system is that I was playing a lot of Diablo 3 at the time and with it's 9 button set up, I could play the game pretty much one handed. I only needed to touch the keyboard to open my inventory or the map.
What can I say? Lazy is good. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the hands down best mouse for those who use mouse clicking. The modifier keys sends this to the next level.
This is amazing for just about everybody. My experience with Razer has been top notch, enough that I'm willing to pick up their Razer Blade Pro. Everyone I know using the two products I linked has been very satisfied.
In case any of you haven't picked up on the fact that I'm a bit of an elitist tech snob, there it is. =)
They're not cheap, but they're definitely worth it.
FWIW, one of the best PvP'ers I know is a mouse clicker. It's a handicap, but not a huge one. Keyboard turning on the other hand is a death sentence.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I certainly wouldn't think that attack animations would be long enough to dodge, like they are in action RPGs. Does anyone think that the animations shown at the end of the last video are long enough that someone is likely going to be able to see the animation start while they are in range and react quickly enough to move out of range before the attack hits?Some of them, most definitely, especially if you're expecting them, others probably not unless you're expecting them, and others fall into the realm of expecting and having 2-3 frame reaction times. Very acceptable imo. Mind you I do not have 2-3 frame reaction times! Haha
If you want a game where mental/finger reflexes do not count at all then stick to table top, turn based games and MUDs.Hah! I crested 120wpm early in my life thanks to MajorMUD. =) That was all because of PvP though, certainly not PvE. ;) Ahh.. good times.
Nobody has 66ms reaction times. With anticipation, it's possible and even probable that many people can have timing that is consistently that precise, and the professional level of fighting games has people that consistently appear to have reactions that quick because they can predict their opponent.
On the issue of input devices, I suggest looking into something like the Nostromo or Orbweaver; with an 8-way hat switch under the thumb that can be used for directional movement, and a large number of keys/buttons under the four fingers that can be used for anything else. The learning period is definitely harder, because keyboard shortcuts are easier to associate with letters because of prior learning.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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All sorts of expectation setting needed.
We start everything small, simple, easy, fast, and then we iterate over time.
We'll begin Early Enrollment with a combat system that looks very much like WoW. That's because it's easy to implement, well understood, and familiar to most of our target audience. There are all sorts of elaborations and alterations that could be made to that system, and some of those things will likely be Crowdforged into the game over the long term. The longer the term, the more elaborate the system will become. We're talking years not months.
Animations are "bling". They don't have much affect on the mechanics. They're just illustrative. We're not using some kind of elaborate physics engine and biomechanical simulation to model how bodies fight and apply force and resistance. We're just making hard-coded animation sequences that are strung together in response to player input. Because of that you won't be dodging around blows, getting your shield up just in time to ward a hit, etc. Interruptions, collisions, mid-animation changes, etc. are all beyond the scope of what we're working on.
(TBH it's hard to just get a PC to walk across a flat surface in a way that feels "right". Everything else they do is ridiculously hard. There is a reason a game like Guild Wars 2 cost $150-$200 million and took 7 years to make. We don't have that kind of money or that kind of time.)
The combat system is not instantaneous but the time delays between the initiation of an action and its resolution will be limited. Remember that MMOs don't have millisecond heartbeats. The game you see is an Illusion; it is really a series of half-second or so "ticks" blended with animations to hide the stutter. Things like getting outside the range of someone's attack will usually be due to timing coincidence not fast-twitch response to visual input (most of the time you won't be able to see, react, and gain the benefit of your reaction - when you "dodge" an attack it will be coincidence that you initiated a movement at the time your opponent initiated an attack and the math says you were out of range when state was checked).
Instead we are focusing on things similar to the tabletop game: conditions. Conditions are effectively modifiers to the combat mechanic derived from a snapshot of the game state when the combat mechanics are triggered. Are you flanked? Are you offering "opportunity"? Are you fatigued? Etc. These are things you have some control over and so you can make smart choices to your benefit as you play.
We'd prefer to have characters stand toe to toe and fight rather than strafing around in circles, running backward or jumping continuously, so the mechanic penalizes that stuff.
It's very unlikely we will have aimed attacks especially in Early Enrollment and maybe never. Aimed attacks require a lot of synch between client and server and are one of the first things that "breaks" under load. We're designing for the use case of large melee engagements, which means having a fragile aiming system embedded in the game is unwise. I would like some general facing to be relevant but that's a much lower burden than aiming.
Mass combat (multiple dozens to hundreds of combatants) is a whole different system and has different constraints.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead we are focusing on things similar to the tabletop game: conditions. Conditions are effectively modifiers to the combat mechanic derived from a snapshot of the game state when the combat mechanics are triggered. Are you flanked? Are you offering "opportunity"? Are you fatigued? Etc. These are things you have some control over and so you can make smart choices to your benefit as you play.
We'd prefer to have characters stand toe to toe and fight rather than strafing around in circles, running backward or jumping continuously, so the mechanic penalizes that stuff.
That sounds very interesting to me: Simple but with depth and hopefully "Yomi"
A term which came from the Virtua Fighter community, but, for various reasons, including David Sirlin's Web Articles/Book on Playing to Win, it has spread to all fighting games.
Yomi is a Japanese term meaning "Knowing the mind of the opponent", and is essentially an intangible asset required in fighting games. It's the ability to know what your opponent is going to do, and act appropriately. Whether you achieve this by "conditioning" the opponent to act one way, and then acting in another way, or simply work your way into the head of your opponent, yomi is just that: the ability to know what your opponent is going to do.
Or at least simple enough so you can read your oppononent but complex enough to out-think your opponent!
I personally did not enjoy the combat in GW2 very much. The animations were good and everything, but it just felt boring. Especially since they used a bundle system for the abilities. All it was just spamming the same moves over and over again. But a good aspect of it was that it felt fluid (somewhat). I am hoping that Goblinworks will go towards action combat (if they already haven't stated that?) instead of the traditional point and click route (like WoW).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead we are focusing on things similar to the tabletop game: conditions.
I would imagine there's quite a bit of value in using terms and mechanics that at least feel familiar to the tabletop players. I think it would be really awesome if PFO could get a lot of the tabletop players to give it a chance, and turn MMO-content creation into a "cottage industry" of sorts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody has 66ms reaction times.
Nobody I know certainly. I just don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that what is perceived as reaction can be that quick. Having a fantastic situational awareness will naturally decrease said reaction times, but that's still part of the reaction. And that's still greater than 1/20th of a second for a finger to flick down on a key. When you can tangibly perceive the difference between 50ms and 100ms ping for your game, and 100ms and 200ms.. it just seems more and more plausible that sub 100ms reactions aren't in the realms of sci-fi/fantasy.
Animations are "bling". They don't have much affect on the mechanics.
I can see how confusion would arise there. I was actually referencing the round trip time between keypress and server simulation confirming the hit, as that would be far more real. (Completely based on my comprehension of what Stephen said about confirming the attack at the end of the animation, which if I understand correctly would be the delay set aside for animation during server simulation, with or without adjustments made for latency.) I did make the unfounded assumption that defensive maneuvers such as rolling would effectively have a character out of range prior to its own animation completing.
I will certainly take heed of where things are headed going forward.
Thanks for clarifying the ideal here!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some people invested in PFO are no longer competitive in terms of reaction times with teenagers accustomed to Call of Duty. It is my hope that PFO offers a level playing field, that aging players can be competitive, and that we older players don't have to resign because of the agility required of the player as opposed to the player's characters.
If this preference does not gift some a significant advantage then since it is a game rather than a sport then it will be all to the good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll be interested to see which demographics are included in the realms deadliest players to be sure! It certainly sounds like someone with a keen mind and even average reflexes is going to be a force to be reckoned with.
The actiony form of combat is a generally good go to for skill based combat, but I believe that done right it can be handled in much slower forms.
Heck, MajorMUD had 4 second rounds and critical thinking was paramount to winning. A strong character only got you so far. I watched a lot of people die thinking they had they upper hand against someone with more PvP knowledge. When the contents of your entire inventory hit the ground because of that kind of mistake... meaningful conflict ftw haha
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan:
Mass combat (multiple dozens to hundreds of combatants) is a whole different system and has different constraints.
Will this be discussed soon in a coming blog? How is transition from one on one to line on line handled? Is there line vs untrained mob fight line war style and mod "one on one" style?
Lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam: I doubt they'll have fleshed that out yet: Probably ways away given they'll need to get normal combat going to begin with (and only checking it won't cause problems for formations). Ryan gave a brief overview of how it's envisioned in the "You're In The Army Now!" blog:
You'll have to move your character around to maintain position. You'll have to face the right direction. You may have to change gear. You may have to select targets. From time to time you may need to run around to get into a new formation or escape when your formation crumbles.
You'll have to communicate with your formation leader letting them know when you need help or have a target of opportunity or see something happening that is meaningful.
You'll have to decide when it is the right decision to break formation coherence and flee (or make a crazed one character charge), and when to suck it up and die while at your post.
You might have to mount or dismount. You might have to activate or deactivate buffs or debuffs. You might have to counterspell or take some other action to negate an incoming hostile effect.
Two units that clash in melee might dissolve into a scrum of individual 1:1 combat and you'll have to be ready to deal with that eventuality.
Your unit may be disrupted by a successful charge or AoE effect and you could suddenly find yourself cut off and have to rally at a different location.
You could get assigned to a new unit and have to make your way across the battlefield to get to that unit while avoiding, deflecting, or negating incoming hostile effects trying to kill you.
All of that will be going on while you are following the chain of orders to generate Combat Power and act coherently with the rest of your formation.
And if you're leading that formation you're going to have an incredibly expanded list of things you'll have to pay attention to and act on as well, which will become more complex the larger the formation you're leading and the more capable the soldiers in that formation are.
