Rules getting caught off-guard

[Gwiber]

Situation Rogue/Mage sneaks into a room that is entirely dark. Said room has 3 Giant centipedes in it, with Darkvision.

His stealth roll is not high enough to beat out the NPC's perception roll.

He throws a light stone out to finally get a sight on the area since he hears nothing. Of course 10 feet away is a giant centipede staring him down.

We roll initiative, the Centipede entirely aware of his presence, staring at him the whole time.

Initiative is rolled. And he beats out the Centipede, and then complains to me when I state despite him winning initiative, said Centipede is not flat-footed.

Said player is complaining about that decision. I based my decision on the idea of flat-footed means being caught off guard in combat, and unable to react to something until their round.

Is said player right? Was I wrong? In terms of pure rules here.

He didn't exactly surprise these things, and they didn't attack him until he moved to go after them.

[Brutesquad07]

The centipedes are clearly not Surprised. Was his perception high enough to perceive them? (did he beat their modified stealth) If not, then he is surprised. They get a standard action (to attack presumably) before initiative. If he is surprised they will go before him, regardless of initiative and are not flat-footed. If he is not surprised then initiative is rolled and everyone is flat-footed until they move.

[BillyGoat]

As Brutesquad points out, there are rules specifically for this:

PCR, page 178, Surprise wrote:

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

...
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.

Emphasis mine. I left out less-relevant information, it's in the book.

In other words, since the centipedes were aware of him, and he wasn't ware of them, they get to act before he does, but in a limited capacity (a single action, plus free actions if you read the full text). This also obviates the centipede's "flat-footed" problem, which is the player's concern.

[Gwiber]

Then my biggest mistake was having them all roll initiative and letting him act as highest init before they acted. Thus giving him the impression eh caught them flat footed.

Correct?

[RedDogMT]

In Gwiber's example, the centipedes were not aggressive until the player character attacked. So in essence, the centipede's gain a surprise round and spend it doing nothing.

BTW, good for you Gwiber in having some monsters not always attack the characters. It means you are trying to inject some realism into your monsters.

[RedDogMT]

Yeah, there was zero chance that the centipedes would be caught flat-footed since they knew the PC was there.

[hogarth]

Gwiber wrote:

Then my biggest mistake was having them all roll initiative and letting him act as highest init before they acted.

If you had wanted the centipedes to initiate combat, you certainly could have surprised him and the centipedes would not have been flat-footed. But since the PC was the first one to act agressively and he beat them to the punch, they should have been flat-footed.

Imagine if the PC met an NPC and he told you: "I'm acting totally relaxed and casual, and yet if anything bad happens I'm automatically ready for action in the blink of an eye regardless of what my initiative is." Would you allow him to do that? Why or why not?

[Gwiber]

hogarth wrote:

Imagine if the PC met an NPC and he told you: "I'm acting totally relaxed and casual, and yet if anything bad happens I'm automatically ready for action in the blink of an eye regardless of what my initiative is." Would you allow him to do that? Why or why not?

My thought on the matter at the time, was that the centipedes were wary, and hungry. Though used to being fed on a regular basis, they were still wild and hostile animals. Seeing someone they EXPECTED food to be dumped in front of them (as much as such animals can expect with their intellect), and reacted violently when no food was presented, and the room suddenly flared with light. Thus I felt a simultaneous initiative roll were justified, and decided neither side was flat-footed or surprised at the time.

The PC's sudden reaction and light, triggered a violent reaction, which the Centipedes were prepared for.

That, at least, was the way I was thinking.

In your example as an equivalent. Said PC would have a blade drawn and pointed at the NPC waiting for said NPC to make a move.

[Ximen Bao]

The rule is that until you act in combat, you're flat-footed. Surprise, expectations, preparation, are all irrelevant to this.

If combat started, and the player went first, all the monsters should have been flat-footed.

Aspects of surprise are simulated by a surprise round, when creatures aware of each other act before unaware creatures.

If you wanted to start combat with a surprise round in which the centipedes decided not to attack, then they would have still acted, meaning they weren't flat footed.

From the player's perspective, it seems like the centipedes broke the rules by not being flat footed, while from the GM's perspective he just handwaved running a do-nothing surprise round.

I would probably have run the surprise round so it didn't look like I was bending the rules for the monsters.

[Gwiber]

Ximen Bao wrote:

If you wanted to start combat with a surprise round in which the centipedes decided not to attack, then they would have still acted, meaning they weren't flat footed.

Wish I had thought of this... and precisely shows what happened even if I didn't think of it.

[hogarth]

Gwiber wrote:

Ximen Bao wrote:

If you wanted to start combat with a surprise round in which the centipedes decided not to attack, then they would have still acted, meaning they weren't flat footed.

Wish I had thought of this... and precisely shows what happened even if I didn't think of it.

You have to be careful that you end up with people saying "My PC is always wary and looking for trouble, even if none is around, so therefore he is always acting in initiative and he can never be caught flat-footed by a visible opponent." That would just be dumb.

[GeneticDrift]

The pc couldn't possibly know ifthe centipedes used an action to make a perception check,or a good stealth roll made their move unnoticed. Total defense should be more obvious I guess, but maybe not.