The problems inherent to overuse of Scrying and Travel magic can be sidestepped pretty easily. Dungeons built in demiplanes or dimensional pockets etc. Also, enemies can use these things as well.
The struggle, for me, with high-level play is the swinginess. Things explode. The analogy of rocket tag is very apt at high level.
The brinksmanship of magic really pushes things to weird places.
But as a GM, this is not a big problem. If an encounter gets annihilated when you didn't expect it to... there can always be backup on the way. I think that its harder to write static adventures for high level though, because you really need to be able to think on your feet. The players have a lot more methods available for accomplishing tasks and circumventing content. So the GM needs to be able to adapt to either prevent things from being overly lethal or keep things challenging.
What's amusing to me about the "rocket tag" thing is that I see the following a lot.
"Offense > Else. Don't prioritize defenses. Oh, and high levels is rocket tag".
Let's think about this. You have all these people building glass cannons as hard as possible and then complaining about high levels being rocket tag. :\
High level play pretty much requires you to play more defensively. You are frequently outnumbered (because high CR encounters have huge experience budgets for lots of moderate to strong enemies, often in support of one to few big-bads).
DQ's post inspired an idea. I'd appreciate y'all's brainstorming if you're up for sharing it.
I'd love to see what comes of it.
What's amusing to me about the "rocket tag" thing is that I see the following a lot.
"Offense > Else. Don't prioritize defenses. Oh, and high levels is rocket tag".
Let's think about this. You have all these people building glass cannons as hard as possible and then complaining about high levels being rocket tag. :\
High level play pretty much requires you to play more defensively. You are frequently outnumbered (because high CR encounters have huge experience budgets for lots of moderate to strong enemies, often in support of one to few big-bads).
Well this very much applies to powerful magic. There are a lot of SoS spells and any high level caster opponent will be able to work people over with them.
Easy example:
Witch
Casts quickened Ill Omen
Casts persistent SOS spell (using a metamagic rod)
Even with a good save its tough to pass when you have to do it 10 consecutive times. Even if you only fail on a natural 1 you have a 40% chance ti fail.
I love high level adventures. One of my favourite campaigns I ran back in 3.5 started with 21st level characters and moved on from there.
I don't run any of the prewritten adventures myself (although I still love reading the APs) so I can't really comment on whether you should bring out more high level adventures. However I would love to see an epic level handbook of some sort for pathfinder.
The new Mythic rules does somewhat fill that gap but it's not quite the same.
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What's amusing to me about the "rocket tag" thing is that I see the following a lot.
"Offense > Else. Don't prioritize defenses. Oh, and high levels is rocket tag".
Let's think about this. You have all these people building glass cannons as hard as possible and then complaining about high levels being rocket tag. :\
High level play pretty much requires you to play more defensively. You are frequently outnumbered (because high CR encounters have huge experience budgets for lots of moderate to strong enemies, often in support of one to few big-bads).
Exactly. All the offense in the world doesn't help you when 20+ specters swarm out of the walls during the suprise round.
High level games can avoid rocket tag if people think carefully about defense. The witch example above...if it gets to a saving throw it should only be because other defenses have already failed. Woe betide that witch if the foe has something as simple as spell turning up.
Caster players have long since learned that AC is a last resort for defense - there are better ways to not get hit. At high levels, the same is true of saving throws.
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The superheroes thing is apt.
The primary issue with superheroes isn't as often 'can I beat Captain Atrocitus,' its 'can I keep him from...'
And thats where the real challenge comes from. Get the party attached to a not nearly as impressive character. Then watch them deal with the crap they deal with while trying to keep the escortee alive.
Or try to protect an area from being damaged while fighting off the CR appropriate threats.
I currently run a game of 8 13th level characters. Its only going to get crazier as things move up.
As I say frequently. For high level play..
* CR is a guideline.
* Encounter design is an art, not a science.
* Don't stop using mooks. The players should feel badass ripping through individuals who literally can't harm them (Warrior 1 Orcs don't disappear just because you're level 15. And things like the four heroes who singlehanded crushed the army of 15,000 orcs is what legends are made of).
* Not all high level opponents should be spellcasters.
* High level opponents should be groups. Not individuals. It works for the PCs, after all.
* Just you, and me, and my GUARDS!: I'm a 16th level warlord. I've got minions. They don't just sit around in 10' by 10' rooms guarding chests.
* If your players are 16th level (or hell above 12th), the bad guy probably heard of them at some point and probably is trying to account for them in his strategy. Even if the strategy is just 'keep them the hell away.' 9th level used to be called 'name level' in 2e for a reason.
* DM Prepwork goes up. High level NPCs are somebodies. Stat them that way.
I enjoy high level play but it does have its issues. Combat takes forever to resolve. An extreme example is that it took us 8 hours spread over two nights to defeat Dragotha in AoW. Now most high level battles are not quite so bad but towards the end of RotRL AE we would only get 2, maybe 3 encounters completed in a 5 hour session.
It is also much harder to be the DM and run things effectively. Balance is only a small issue since it isn't too hard to ramp things up if it seems too easy. What is a bigger problem is running the NPCs effectively. Players have had months or years to learn all of their abilities and how to use them effectively, but the GM has many more characters to control, most as complicated as the average PC and not nearly as much time to learn them all.
For my group the sweet spot seems to be from about 7-14. By this point you have lots of options to deal with difference situations, combat has slowed down but not to the point where you have players asking if they've been skipped since they have not had a turn in over 30 minutes.
One simple reason is most people don't play high level 16+ characters as much a they play level 4-. So an adventure for lower levels has a much bigger market. Now I'm all for high level but high level takes commitment and time. Sure I could run a game starting with high level characters, I've even done it once but compared to the games that started at 1st it's a rare occurrence.
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The major issue with high levels is what I like to call the 'exploit problem.'
High level parties notice exploits or useful tactics, and as high level gameplay isn't as frequently as low level, the DMs typically don't adjust as much for it.
Essentially, DMs have more experience with lower level campaigns, and tend to fall back on their old tricks (me included) when high level is hit.
Common bad outcomes for high level play are stuff like:
The Mirror War: The DM responds to tougher heroes with increasingly ridiculous crap of his own that are shallow duplicates of tricks and builds the PCs use, or are built expressly to counter their builds. This is where the assinine 'only wizards fight wizards' thing comes from.
Like Before, Only Bigger!: You go into the 10X10 room and instead of an Orc, there's a hamatula. Yeah, a hamatula. He's guarding a treasure chest and he didn't exist until that door was open (thats why he's guarding the chest, and not some lemure).
I want to punch someone: Combat encounters drift off and become less numerous and far more impressive. Good for social characters. Not so much for Krogar the Devestation of Nations.
And All The Powers of HELL!!!: Yeah you just made it to relatively high level, the skies are opening, demons are everywhere. Asmodeus wants your ass on a platter. Your city just got eaten. You're on the bottom of the food chain because you climbed to the top. The demonic invasion just wanted to rub it in your face that your increase in power level is pointless.
We're Bigger then Thor!: The party decides to go and beat the crap out of seriously denuded major threats using dubious tactics and capabilities. The DM allows it.
Pathfinder: The Gathering: Another Wizard vs Wizard thing. A wizard player spends the entire time playing a giant game of MtG against the DM with theory crafting and 'my wand is bigger' one-up-manship while the rest of the party busies themselves with accomplishing minor or inconsequential but fun goals.
Bent things are more dangerous then broken ones. A lot of these ironically have good tactics for high level campaigns hidden in them.
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PCs should have layered defenses at high levels. That includes (but is not limited to):
AC
Saving Throws
Continuous miss %s.
Energy Resistances.
Damage Reductions.
Resistances or immunities to various inflictions.
Resistance or immunity to critical hits / sneak attacks.
Temporary HP / Fast Healing / Regeneration.
Most of these can be taken care of with low level buff spells used with high caster levels. For example, resist energy CL 11th or better can provide 30 points of energy resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire damage. A lesser cloak of displacement gives concealment 20% 24/7 while the greater version comes with an extra 30% for a limited time each day. AC and saves are obvious. Damage reductions are often less important vs PCs but are critical when dealing with NPCs who frequently lack super powerful weaponry, the correct type of weaponry, or rely heavily on natural attacks). Fortification armor provides 25/50/75% critical hit/sneak immunity which when combined with a high AC can all but immunize you to critical hits and critical-kickers (like Blinding Critical). Temporary HP (especially when from some source that refreshes) can help soften blows. Fast healing / regeneration help keep you up longer vs attacks that don't one-shot you.
Most of these things are acquired fairly easily through common magic items, item creation, or class features. For example, a cleric that casts righteous might gains DR 10/alignment. Such damage reduction essentially neuters the threat of a creature such as the kraken.
In essence, the amount of punishment you're taking has to get through many different layers of defense. Let's take that cleric vs the kraken again.
AC 40 (+11 armor, +6 shield, +1 insight, +6 dex, +3 natural, +3 deflection), the kraken has a 30% chance to hit with its main attacks and a 20% chance to hit with its secondary attacks.
Concealment 20% (lesser cloak of displacement), so 1/5 of the attacks that actually would land instead miss due to concealment.
DR 10/whatever from spell. The attacks that manage to get through AC and DR deal 10 less damage (reducing the krakens average damage for each attack from 17 / 9 / 14 to 7, -1, and 4).
This cleric could likely be pummeled all day by this kraken while beating it to death with his mace. Short of drowning the cleric (which may not even be possible due to things like water breathing and freedom of movement, the cleric can probably just melee the kraken to death with her 1-hander, even while the kraken is trying to grapple her.