This is the description of Two-Weapon Feint:
Two-Weapon Feint
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent.
Now this is the description of Feint:
To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
So essentially, it seems to be saying that you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to deny your opponent his Dexterity bonus to AC against your next attack. Fine.
Now here is the description of Improved Two-Weapon Feint:
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
I'm trying to see the benefit. It seems to suggest the exact same thing, except that instead of you denying the target's Dex bonus to AC for your next attack (which could come the following round), you now deny the target his Dex bonus to AC for the rest of your turn, presumably for attacks that follow, but NOT extending to the following round. Is that pretty much it?
The character in question is a Rogue trying to use TW Feint to set up his foe for sneak attack damage in combat when not flanking, and as such, is there any real reason at all to pursue the Improved version of this feat? Also, it doesn't appear that Two-Weapon Feint is a pre-requisite for Improved Two-Weapon Feint...
Two-Weapon Feint = sneak attack on next attack
Improved Two-Weappn Feint = sneak attack for the rest of your turn
It's a big difference, particularly when you get more iteratives.
Well if you get lets say 5 attacks...BAB is +6/+1 or better and you have improved TWF and haste
With TW Feint you forgo one attack and get 4 attacks...only one of which get your SA damage
With improved TW Feint you forgo one attack and get 4 attacks...ALL get SA damage
Does this explain it?
Ninja'd :(
Slow Internet at the plasma place /cry
Two-Weapon Feint = sneak attack on next attack
Improved Two-Weappn Feint = sneak attack for the rest of your turn
It's a big difference, particularly when you get more iteratives.
Well if you get lets say 5 attacks...BAB is +6/+1 or better and you have improved TWF and haste
With TW Feint you forgo one attack and get 4 attacks...only one of which get your SA damage
With improved TW Feint you forgo one attack and get 4 attacks...ALL get SA damage
Does this explain it?
Wait a minute - that can't be right since you can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round... or is that wrong?
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Wait a minute - that can't be right since you can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round... or is that wrong?
You may apply sneak attack damage to any and every attack which qualifies for sneak attack.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
Italics mine. Feint clearly denies the target his dex bonus against your next attack. The wording in ITWF denies his dex bonus without qualification. Taken one way that would mean he loses his dex bonus against all your allies too. Intentional, or were the devs relying implicitly on the assumption that Feint only applies to your attacks?
Wait a minute - that can't be right since you can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round... or is that wrong?You may apply sneak attack damage to any and every attack which qualifies for sneak attack.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.Wow. I had no idea - I wonder why I assumed that? Maybe it was a holdover from a previous version of the game and reinforced by a cursory reading of Hunter's Surprise. That changes everything.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.Italics mine. Feint clearly denies the target his dex bonus against your next attack. The wording in ITWF denies his dex bonus without qualification. Taken one way that would mean he loses his dex bonus against all your allies too. Intentional, or were the devs relying implicitly on the assumption that Feint only applies to your attacks?
Excellent question.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.Italics mine. Feint clearly denies the target his dex bonus against your next attack. The wording in ITWF denies his dex bonus without qualification. Taken one way that would mean he loses his dex bonus against all your allies too. Intentional, or were the devs relying implicitly on the assumption that Feint only applies to your attacks?
Well it stops at the end of your turn, before your allies can usually attack.
There's a few exceptions of course:- Something you do triggers a feat on an ally that gives him an AoO against your enemy
- They ready an action to attack after your feint (but they can only do a single attack then)
The wording might be a little unclear, but I'm guessing the intent is for it to be only against you.
But, as Quatar said, the utility would probably be pretty limited regardless. I probably wouldn't balk much if something like that came up on a limited basis.
Well if say the fighter readies an action to do this, because otherwise he couldn't hit the enemy (really? That's possible?) and gives up his other attacks for that or takes one of those feats (which are usually quite bad) that actually promotes teamwork and everything, so I'd probably see it as something good and not something that must be stomped out.