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This is a confusing and ill-understand discussion within my gaming group. How does the Pathfinder Lycanthropy template actually function? The wording of the template seems clear enough, but it doesn't match up with most of the example creatures given in any of the PF product lines. This makes it especially difficult to try and use it with player characters.
Challenge Rating: If the PC's level is greater than or equal to the animal's, this only increases your CR by +1. This actually wouldn't be a problem with many animals, but when you start talking about bears or tigers that +1 does not justify the huge ability score gain. Does the template assume "base creature" just means the PC's race? Or does it also include class levels? If "base creature" is just meant to be 1 HD humanoid then the CR increase would be much higher when creating weretigers and such, which seems to make more sense. But that's not how most other templates work.
Size and Type: This issue was cleared up with the errata to Bestiary 2. Hybrid bears and tigers are large.
Ability Scores: And here is the real difficulty. In what order is the +2 Str/+2 Con applied? Is it added to the base creature's stats before or after you compare them to the base animal's? The wording of the template suggests you apply the bonuses to the base character first and then compare them to the base animal's to see which is higher (and therefore what stats the hybrid will have). However, none of the example animals seem to follow a consistent pattern.
- Werewolf/Wererat - The +2's are added in after the animal's scores are applied.
- Werebear/Weretiger - The bonuses are added in before and then overlapped by the animal's superior scores.
- Wereboar - After removing Rage bonuses, it's clear that the +2's were added after the animal's scores were factored in. This does not follow the pattern of the other lycanthropes in Bestiary 2 but does follow the pattern of Bestiary 1.
- Werebat - This template has exceptions unique to itself, such as the size and speed rules.
- Wereshark - The bonuses are added in before.
- Werecrocodile - The bonuses are added to the base creature but then never compared to the base animal (which should have overlapped). This one is just way out there.
In my opinion the correct method for determine the ability scores of a lycanthrope in hybrid form is to apply the +2 Str and Con to the base character first and then compare these adjusted scores to those of the base animal, taking the higher of the two. This matches the wording of the template and also provides the smallest increase in stats. However, this method does not match half of the example monsters. Several of them compare the unadjusted stats to the base animal, take the more favorable, and then apply the +2's on top. This creates a larger stat increase and does not match the wording of the template.
If I could get an official response, that would be great. Even better would be a clarified and consistent version of the template in future Bestiaries.
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OK So this is how it works
Stats
All Forms get their Stats and +2 Wis -2 ChaBase Creature = The Players Stats
Base Animal = What Creature they were converted toSo Animal and Hybrid form takes the highest stat from Both Sets of Stats and uses it then Apply the +2 after you have determined the stats.
Which is how some of the example monsters are generated, such as those in Bestiary 1. However, this doesn't match up with how the werebear, tiger, and shark were created. Those three have the +2 Str/Con added to the base creature before comparing scores to the base animal. This is apparent when you look at the Bestiary 2 monsters. Both the hybrid werebear and a standard bear have 21 Strength and 19 Con. No +2 was added. Same thing with the weretiger.
The werebear's stats in the bestiary are built wrong.
If I'm not mistaken, this werebear is still built without the ability score adjustments that the lycanthrope template normally has. Its ability scores in human form are:
STR 16-DEX 14-CON 13-INT 12-WIS 12-CHA 8
Which fits in with the normal array for monsters with character levels (15-14-13-12-10-8) with the human racial +2 in WIS (for a ranger spell at level 4) or INT (for skills) and +1 in strength from its fourth Hit Die. Lycanthropes in human form are supposed to have +2 WIS and -2 CHA, so shouldn't it be either WIS 14 CHA 6, WIS 10 CHA 10, or INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 8?
Additionally, the Hybrid form has:
STR 21-DEX 14-CON 19-INT 12-WIS 12-CHA 8
While the grizzly bear has:
STR 21-DEX 13-CON 19-INT 12-WIS 12-CHA 8
So the hybrid form has the best of the scores between the human form and the grizzly bear... which is the problem, since its strength and con are supposed to get a +2 in hybrid and beast form.
Am I correct in this? Is it an intentional simplification of the template because the bear is stronger than the wolf and (dire) rat that were lycanthropized in the bestiary 1? I'm OK either way, and I know from looking it up that this monster's statblock has been an issue before, but I was rebuilding a character as a werebear and I noticed the discrepancy.
(For what it's worth, I think the weretiger includes the +WIS -CHA but not the +STR +CON in hybrid?)
I posted a thread on this a while ago.
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I posted a thread on this a while ago.
Good to know. That's the same math I came up with as well. What are your thoughts the three werecreatures in the various Adventure Paths? To me the inconsistencies there could just stem from having different designers and editors, but it really gives the impression that even internally they don't quite agree on how the template works.
I hadn't looked at the other ones in great detail, but I will give it a look.