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We played this on Friday night, and to put it mildly, I'm very unhappy with how the faction was retired. Lantern Lodge goes out on a high note, and Shadow Lodge goes out by invalidating everything the members THOUGHT they were working for. Wee.
Only it wasn't invalidated.
Have you played Night March of Kalkamedes? The entire mission's point was the society taking steps to aid pathfinders, even long retired ones, when they needed it. Shelia Heidmarch herself set it up, and we know her reputation. The members of the Shadow Lodge get specific assistance as needed to transition after the betrayal. You can say it's not in good faith and is just corporate PR, but it will have to be maintained either way unless they want another rebellion to rise.
Maybe it wasn't as they envisioned, but the Shadow Lodge succeeded in their overall goal.
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"Oh, we're going to send you on a mission that could literally be done any night at all, that could be done SO much safer if you had time to figure things out in advance, but we're not going to so much as TELL you anything about it until LITERALLY THE MOMENT WE'RE FORCING YOU TO GO."
That's one of my biggest complaints with PFS scenarios in general. There are too many where the VC has known about the problems for days or weeks, but they call you in at midnight and you have to start now.
Rivalry's End was a major disappointment. Season 4 has in general has been a major disappointment. I can think of plenty of bad season 4 modules, but I'm having a tough time thinking of any which really impressed me. (I've probably played 3/4 of them).
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I've never wanted to KILL an (in-game) Venture Captain as much as I did in that game. So, yeah... Night March only reinforces the need for the Shadow Lodge, in my eyes.
How many of the VC's (or other Society NPC's) have you met? Heidmarch is pretty unintelligent and worthless, but not at all the worst offender. I can't really think of an (in the game mind you) VC or VL I don't want to kill, honestly.
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I enjoyed this one in parts and disliked it in others.
We had a party of 4, and were playing in 3-4 ( I was quite out of Tier being a level 6, the rest were 5's)
Now my character Bleeding Bears backstory was that Torch had saved him from a Chelaxian slaving group.. he felt he had a debt of Honor to Torch.
A) Bleeding Bear offered to help the swindlers with their drilling if they would help him find a secret door in a wall (that didnt work so well)
B) His knowledge of THassilonian (he learned to read and write recently) came in handy
C) Touch of Idiocy took him from 7 int to 3. Oh god was that hard to play for a minute or two.
D) Confused for 9 rounds, inflicted 24 points of damage to himself. Inflicted 24 points to another characters. Did not gibber once.
E) Used a log from the fireplace above to beat the Spider (who he thought was the SPIDER from the level above) unconscious
F)Was very surprised when Torch killed the TKO Spider. Bludgeoned Torch to death (very good Init roll)
As the character, Bleeding Bear considered Torch his brother. He had tears on his face as he beat him down.
As a Player, I was .. I think a little disappointed how that plot panned out. I think it maybe could of gone over 3 scenarios or at least a couple. I also think its highly unlikely he is dead. THe room with the 'deflated heads' , the hand in the liquid , The doppleganger in the tank. All of this to met points to the fact, that it wasnt the real Torch. Its an obvious red herring that we might not find the Spider to be who she appears to be. In fact she was exactly who she appeared to be.
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Throwing 4+ field agents into unnecessary danger to make a PR statement is NOT a step forward.But assigning four agents to a former agent to ensure he doesn't hurt himself on the journey is.
Exactly, TriOmegaZero. Exactly.
The agents weren't sent there to prevent Kalkamedes from getting hurt worse than he already had been. The best experts the Society could find (locally, right), could not figure anything out. So, the agents are sent along as baby sitters. It happens that the agents solve the mystery, and save Kalkamedes, but if the agents weren't there, at the he would have probably been dead (or close to death). Heidmarch was trying to help the former Pathfinder the only way she knew how to, with the resources she had available. Is it her fault that the resources may not have been up to the task?
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Throwing 4+ field agents into unnecessary danger to make a PR statement is NOT a step forward.But assigning four agents to a former agent to ensure he doesn't hurt himself on the journey is.Exactly, TriOmegaZero. Exactly.
The agents weren't sent there to prevent Kalkamedes from getting hurt worse than he already had been. The best experts the Society could find (locally, right), could not figure anything out. So, the agents are sent along as baby sitters. It happens that the agents solve the mystery, and save Kalkamedes, but if the agents weren't there, at the he would have probably been dead (or close to death). Heidmarch was trying to help the former Pathfinder the only way she knew how to, with the resources she had available. Is it her fault that the resources may not have been up to the task?
Agreed, from the POV of my (now former) Shadow Lodger, that would have been a GREAT thing for VC Heidmarch to do. Look after someone who served the society and was now clearly in need of assistance.
Her biggest regret was the accident killing of the former Master of Blades in Ustalav. To this day my Gunslinger feels she failed him and the society..though she saved a fellow pathfinder and an innocent in the process.
Her outlook (though I had to apply GM credit since she's too high to do the scenario) is that Torch betrayed everyone he brought into the Shadow Lodge and when they next meet.. she'll kill him like she plans to kill the Venture Captain that used her parents as a distraction.
Two bullets in the head.. and then she'll take the head since it looks like he might not be dead (My players killed him with a 60-something crit)
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Have you played Night March of Kalkamedes? The entire mission's point was the society taking steps to aid pathfinders, even long retired ones, when they needed it. Shelia Heidmarch herself set it up, and we know her reputation.
If you do the shadowlodge mission for that though, your job is to find out that she had to use her own considerable clout to get a resource like the PCs. If you don't have her level of clout you're STILL out of luck. The deciemverate hasn't learned a damned thing, she had a way to make them listen anyway.
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And how come everyone else's party didn't die the same way?
Surprise Round:
Spider casts dominate person "on a heavily armored foe that is not bearing an obvious holy symbol, commanding him to attack the most lightly armored Pathfinders."
Of the four people she could see through the door, two were wearing holy symbols. The other 2 were unarmored but were eligible targets that would (likely) have lower saves--I rolled 50/50 for who would get hit and then, luckily, the character made their save.
The two people she couldn't see were a barbarian and a wizard.
Round 1:
Deep Slumbered the archer that made the perception check for the correct square, made all his concealment miss rolls and lit her up for a third of her HP.
Round 2:
Held the barbarian that came raging into the room. Had I remembered confusion was a burst and not a single target spell, I would have cast that instead.
Round 3
By this point she got glitterdusted, mad monkeyed and dogpiled in very short order. I called the combat as she was blind, beat up and near 30 HP.
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Two questions:
What did we do wrong?
And how come everyone else's party didn't die the same way?
If you were in subtier 6-7, your GM was supposed to use Dominate Person... which of course let's everyone know her position for immediate smackdown. She should surrender or die before she's able to act in this case.
Maybe the other groups had a better initiative and killed her before she was able to act? Or maybe they didn't stand in close formation at the door? Or maybe the GM softballed like mine did (used Dominate and Sleep exclusively)? Or maybe the group was big enough that they still took her down with 50% of the party disabled? Who knows?
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How many of the VC's (or other Society NPC's) have you met? Heidmarch is pretty unintelligent and worthless, but not at all the worst offender. I can't really think of an (in the game mind you) VC or VL I don't want to kill, honestly.
First off, you really need to calm down.
I think that there are a variety of personalities for the VCs and faction leaders. Since these people are mostly just giving you orders and answering a few questions, we don't get them as fleshed out as we would like. Reading the Pathfinder Society Field Guide helps you learn more about the people and RP them better when you're GMing.
Torch's betrayal wasn't entirely a surprise, but if you're a crafty GM then it won't be telegraphed for the PCs. There are a few table tricks you can use to make it seem like this is just the "story ending," some of which are suggested in the scenario.
For those that are interested, a recap of the table I ran yesterday (high tier):
Once downstairs, they heard the clockworks and were able to use the secret door in the middle rooms to get around behind them and ambush them. The rogue initiated combat by sneaking up and sneak attacking one of them. The clockwork beat him on initiative then one-shot-crit the rogue to death. The rest of the party tried to hold off the clockworks and put up a good fight while one party member decided to run around the long way and get the rogue's body. I rolled a natural 20 four more times... but was unable to confirm because I was rolling 5 or less to confirm on a scary AC 28 melee alchemist. He's damn lucky. Damn. Lucky.
They bypassed the web/creeping doom trap and identified the rug trap thanks to the now-raised super rogue. After fiddling around in the hall and looking at mirrors and talking loudly, Dori decided to wait to cast greater invis when the door opened (knowing it's only 11 rounds). Once the rogue goes in to investigate the room, she drops confusion on them (you can't dominate in the surprise round because it's a 1 round spell), then dominates the only party member who saved against the confusion. They managed to get invisibility purge off before confusion made them all hurt themselves and each other.
In the final rounds she had 2 unconscious party members, 2 confused party members (one who was suggested to "run and get help," causing her to run across the trapped rug), and a dominated melee alchemist. The rogue had some lucky "act normally" rounds and was able to hurt Dori enough she sic'd the alchemist on him... who then made his save and she gave up with only 26 hp left.
They waited for confusion to wear off, then healed enough to get people conscious and headed back to Grandmaster Torch. I had everyone roll Sense Motive a few scenes earlier and just noted the results; if they had asked to again I'd have let them... but they didn't. When Torch slit Dori's throat, the players all just stared at me jaws agape. "What do you do?" I asked... they just stared... so Torch used his cape and departed, the Orcs threatened to kill them if they didn't leave right then. The party did so, the rogue said "I'm not fighting torch, no way!"
They all said they had a lot of fun and really enjoyed the scenario. A couple of the players saw the betrayal coming, and a few of them did not. I call it a success.
I'm interested to see the GM Torch based scenarios next season, I think they could be really interesting.
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...which of course let's everyone know her position for immediate smackdown.
Not necessarily. She still gets +20 to her stealth versus perception. (+20 for invisibility, +20 not moving, -20 for casting). Worst case scenario, the entire party fails to spot her and they just AoE the heck out of her tiny office. Best case scenario, everyone spots her square and destroys her before she can act.
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I was very confused by one part of the spider fight:
The spider casts "Confusion" which lasts for 11 rounds. 3 of the 4 characters fail their save (DC 21).
One of the three confused characters attacks another confused character. So these two characters start a fight to the death. And the third confused character joins in the fight a couple of rounds later. Leaving the Level 5 bard to attempt to solo the spider. TPK results.
Two questions:
What did we do wrong?
And how come everyone else's party didn't die the same way?
Hmm.. we had TWO players who had encountered the Spider before. AND KNEW PESONALLY that she liked to slap dominate on the heavily armored fighter types. So they were prepared this time. Using the a little prep to turn two of the players into a mirrior image of the Goblin who killed her LAST time, the spread out and the Cleric put a silence spell on a copper piece and everyone got ready. Because they knew she was ready for them.
So. The round opened up and she was suprised to find THREE screaming goblins coming at her with big sharky smiles. The Spider got off her spell (rolling randomly to pick ONE of the goblins) and got the one with a good will save. Then the silence hit and she tried to get clear.
Net result. Three rounds, including surprise, a buttload of nonlethal damage and she wound up rolled up in her own carpet and carried out by three goblins, an axebeak and one smirking cleric.
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...which of course let's everyone know her position for immediate smackdown.Not necessarily. She still gets +20 to her stealth versus perception. (+20 for invisibility, +20 not moving, -20 for casting). Worst case scenario, the entire party fails to spot her and they just AoE the heck out of her tiny office. Best case scenario, everyone spots her square and destroys her before she can act.
No, I'm talking about the case where she casts a 1 round spell (Dominate or Deep Slumber) and she is making noise the entire time. The DC to detect "the details of a whispered conversation" is only DC 15, to determine which square she is in. And from there it's only a 50% miss chance for concealment, if the PCs don't outright use Glitterdust, Faeriefire, bags of flour, or other fun.
If invisible, she should not be casting 1 round spells, unless she wants to get mauled.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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How many of the VC's (or other Society NPC's) have you met? Heidmarch is pretty unintelligent and worthless, but not at all the worst offender. I can't really think of an (in the game mind you) VC or VL I don't want to kill, honestly.First off, you really need to calm down.
I think that there are a variety of personalities for the VCs and faction leaders. Since these people are mostly just giving you orders and answering a few questions, we don't get them as fleshed out as we would like. Reading the Pathfinder Society Field Guide helps you learn more about the people and RP them better when you're GMing.
Torch's betrayal wasn't entirely a surprise, but if you're a crafty GM then it won't be telegraphed for the PCs. There are a few table tricks you can use to make it seem like this is just the "story ending," some of which are suggested in the scenario.
For those that are interested, a recap of the table I ran yesterday (high tier):
** spoiler omitted **...
How'd you get your rogue raised mid-game? We weren't allowed to go get our paladin raised.
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How many of the VC's (or other Society NPC's) have you met? Heidmarch is pretty unintelligent and worthless, but not at all the worst offender. I can't really think of an (in the game mind you) VC or VL I don't want to kill, honestly.First off, you really need to calm down.
Yah, I was attempting t be a bit more light hearted with that.
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Yah, I was attempting t be a bit more light hearted with that.How many of the VC's (or other Society NPC's) have you met? Heidmarch is pretty unintelligent and worthless, but not at all the worst offender. I can't really think of an (in the game mind you) VC or VL I don't want to kill, honestly.First off, you really need to calm down.
As light as lead. ;-)
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I ran this last night for the first time. It went...oddly.
1) I didn't anticipate the need to prep a mechanic for gambling. The players wanted to blend in through participation in the tournament. I ended up coming up with opposed bluff/sense motive checks, but it was clumsy.
2) The PCs all had terrible Will saves and it easily could have gone badly. Confusion worked brilliantly. The ninja was capable of taking out the entire party.
3) The PCs brought Oiudda back to Torch. I set up the encounter without a battlemap. I described Torch performing a CDG and then sawing her jaw off her corpse, just to give them a chance to react. They sat there listening, and no one did a thing. Torch stared back at them, then turned and walked out the door with his bodyguards. Afterward, one player asked "So who's the Decemvirate?". LOL.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have described the bodyguards drawing their weapons and covering Torch to create a better impression that something wasn't kosher. In the end they lost some gold for letting the bodyguards walk away, but essentially they didn't care what Torch was up to.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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In retrospect, perhaps I should have described the bodyguards drawing their weapons and covering Torch to create a better impression that something wasn't kosher. In the end they lost some gold for letting the bodyguards walk away, but essentially they didn't care what Torch was up to.
I've been waiting to see this come up. There were a lot of people who liked the Shadow Lodge and the ideals it (supposedly) espoused. Moreover, many people who played through the Shadow Lodge scenarios where Oidda was front and center HATED her. She was one of the bad guys who was actually characterized well.
Also, I suspect what happened at your table could be a more common occurrence if not for the fact that most GMs, I suspect, say something along the lines of, "And Torch smokes Oidda. Roll initiative," thereby inadvertently forcing the players' hands.
Do you think, if you'd set up the map and asked for initiative, your players would have fallen into line and fought? Or do you think they just didn't care? I ask because I've been trying to decide how manipulative I want to be with Torch during this scenario, and see whether I can create some dissent in the party before the fight. Maybe even get a couple people to defend him while he flees.
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I think the only reason we tried to stop him was the half-orc Shadow Lodge Union Thug thought Torch was defecting to management. And really my Life Oracle should have tried to stop the fight once he escaped, as there was no reason to kill each other for nothing.
Very true. I was pretty worthless in that battle. Pretty much pure meat shield.
I'm pretty sure you were one of the only party members that could take that beating and not be dead outright.
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I ran it Monday night and had the players just staring as Torch stabbed Ouidda and made his speech. Then they tried to interrogate the bodyguards, who weren't having it. They were a pretty..."tough-guy" group though.
One shadow lodge player was significantly disgruntled that he lost out on a prestige point for not ratting out Torch about his mission.
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The DC to detect "the details of a whispered conversation" is only DC 15, to determine which square she is in.
Yes, it is DC 15 to hear the details of a whispered conversation i.e. what is being said. It is not DC 15 to locate her square.
Example:
I will able to hear invisible school girls gossiping and about my dowdy dress if I beat a DC 15.
I will not be able to locate these mean girls unless I beat at least a DC 20 (+20 for invisibility, +20 not moving, -20 for casting, +X Stealth*).
*Can you use stealth while casting as being invisible grants total concealment? Let us NOT argue that here and just say it can be argued either way for now.
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This adventure was one of the saddest moments in my cleric’s young life.
Now it wasn't because (as described above by Mike) that I died in the second round of combat without even being touched, thanks to my Shield Other spell. My death spared another’s life, and Erastil would be please with me. Certainly, it was discouraging, especially since one of my companions seemed to know a great deal about the mechanical men, but we had no clue that they were as strong as mature adult dragons until they were killing our best fighters.
Thankfully the people of Varisia still held me in high regard after the Rune Carved Key incident and purchased me a discounted resurrection. After I got better, we prayed to the local god of tables for a lower threat level. We found the rest of the adventure to be rendered trivial by some alchemist fire and a silence spell.
What saddened me though, was my final time with Grandmaster Torch. Our final confrontation made no sense to me. Every member of our party was a loyalist to the Shadow Lodge. It made no sense at all why my friend and mentor Torch would suddenly expect that we would all turn on him, rather than trust that he was making the wise decision. It was like the Fates themselves forced us into combat without regard to human motivations. I personally considered throwing up an obscuring mist in the hopes of calming the fighting, but Torch had disappeared before I could act, so I just halfheartedly shot an arrow into the space where he had been so as not to look like I had betrayed the other members of my party. I just felt lost and confused. And worst of all, I now have no faction to further Erastil’s goals for community within the Pathfinder Society.
Not one of my better days.
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Absolutely!
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_invisibility
"in combat or speaking" incurs a -20 penalty. Dominate person has a vocal component that must be spoken aloud, hence the penalty.
Woe unto the Pathfinders that run into a mage hovering stationary above the battlefield with Fly, Greater Invisibility and Silent Spell.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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3) The PCs brought Oiudda back to Torch. I set up the encounter without a battlemap. I described Torch performing a CDG and then sawing her jaw off her corpse, just to give them a chance to react. They sat there listening, and no one did a thing. Torch stared back at them, then turned and walked out the door with his bodyguards. Afterward, one player asked "So who's the Decemvirate?". LOL.
I ran this the other night and had pretty much the same reaction. They just watched Torch gank her and then stroll out with his bodyguards in tow. This from 2 shadow lodge, 1 sczarni and 1 chelaxian pcs. The biggest reactions I got were a "Yes!" and "Why did we have to bring her back alive if you were just going to kill her anyway?"
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I am running this on Sunday, and had a couple of questions that I am unsure of.
First, for the Creeping Doom. Is this supposed to be just re-skinned as spiders instead of centipedes? As written, it is ambiguous, and could be read to be replaced with 4 spider swarms (of the type used for the 3-4). There is a HUGE difference in power, and I can see this single encounter having risk of TPK (4X 60hp swarms, dealing 4d6 + DC20 poison?!?!). I know that my group would have been in real trouble with this one (at high tier, Rogue 6, Gunslinger5/Inquisitor2, Barbarian 7, Valeros 7), so very glad our rogue bypassed it.
The other question has to do with the carpet trap (touch of idiocy + illusory script). Since this is, in fact, a trap, cannot it be disabled? This is something we didn't try, but we did try things like the grappling hook, etc (GM ruled that the grappling hook triggered). I don't recall seeing a Disarm DC on this (though I assume I could just check the rules on disarming magical traps, and build the DC accordingly).
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The empowered touch of idiocy trap has a disarm DC of 27. Page 10 and 11 of the scenario.
The way the creeping doom description in the scenario reads, it is the creeping doom spell in every way, except the bugs are given a description as spiders instead of generic "biting and stinging insects."
