Big plans as PCs, and DM's tolerance

[Drychnath]

I set to wondering, when planning new spells for some wizard I'll doubtless never play to research, about the power levels of various achievements that the game world permits but the PCs usually do not undertake. Rituals to awaken dead gods or open terrible portals, the manufacture of a dread weapon, turning the peasants into abominations, things of this nature a often confronted by PCs while in sub-epic levels despite not having access to ready-made magic or convenient knowledge of any where near that sort of power.

The reasons the bad guys get to attempt such shenanigans seem pretty straightforward: they invest their treasure and research in accomplishing these bigger-picture aims, rather than the pretty specific kill-you-in-the-face habits of PCs.

So does anyone attempt to do these sorts of things, or their good or neutral equivalents, as PCs, or permit them as DMs?

Whenever I think of a charachter concept for a wizard, and often for other casters, I imagine some huge magical project that will serve as a centerpiece of their professional achievement.

But what about other things that commonly feature in stories? Like a weapon crafted to slay a singular individual. Or other one-off magical rituals and large spells. Because of the time and money entailed, even very modest projects like this fall outside the scope of the average adventure, but the second I'm a caster in a campaign that is remotely sandboxy, I'm having a chat with my DM about these things.

[Makhno]

As a DM, I love it when my PCs (evil) have big plans and make efforts to bring those plans to fruition.

Establishing kickass party bases is a good one. The party in my game have several: one is a city-sized iron cube floating in the void of Acheron; another's a tremendous, legendary airship that can fly between planes of existence...

One of the PCs had, as a long-term goal, becoming the new god of magic (to take the place of Odin, who was killed during Ragnarok). Goal: achieved. (Creative modification of the Deities & Demigods divine rank rules allow the campaign to continue without horrible imbalance.)

Crafting custom magic items and researching unique spells is almost too trivial to mention, but there's certainly lots of that.

I think one of the keys to allowing this sort of thing is to turn it into plot. The player has some ambitious goal in mind? Great! Rather than going "oh man, if I let them do that, it'll totally derail the plot", say instead "Hey, thanks! Free plot!" and turn the accomplishment of the goal into a quest, or series of quests. Of course you'll want to intertwine it into adventures that interest the other players, so it doesn't feel like a one-man show.

[EWHM]

If you're interested in a system that supports that kind of 'thinking big', check out the old Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters/Immortals rules. You can think even beyond the universal level under that system. The wrath of the immortals boxed set is the place to start looking.

[Blueluck]

Makhno wrote:

I think one of the keys to allowing this sort of thing is to turn it into plot. The player has some ambitious goal in mind? Great! Rather than going "oh man, if I let them do that, it'll totally derail the plot", say instead "Hey, thanks! Free plot!" and turn the accomplishment of the goal into a quest, or series of quests. Of course you'll want to intertwine it into adventures that interest the other players, so it doesn't feel like a one-man show.

Nailed it, Makhno.

As a GM I've frequently allowed players to work on big projects. Some have succeeded, some failed, some get abandoned. But, as Makhno said, the key to making those big ideas work is to integrate them into the plot.

As a player, I try to defer to my GM and find out what kinds of goals will work with the campaign, and to the other players to some extent. If what I'm doing makes the game better for everyone, then I'm on the right track.

[Drychnath]

Thanks for the boxed set suggestion! I am tormented by these sorts of ideas with some regularity. I bring up the dead god issue because one of my character concepts is a necromancer who seeks to resurrect a god, exhume a forgotten god, or harness forgotten powers in a similar fashion.

And my conception of magic has grown more and more sophisticated with time; these larger projects seem the most fun way of exploring some of those ideas as a part of the story.

[Kimera757]

I see no reason why a good party can't do something like that (freeing a solar or what have you) ... at least compared to an evil party.

But you can't do this kind of thing "in the rules". Those "off-book" rituals the bad guys used are "off-book" and often not defined in rules terms at all. You could do this anyway by talking to the DM.

[Drychnath]

My curiosity is whether people actually want/attempt/succeed at such things, these days.

It may have been just my area, but I observed that having rules for so many things seemed to squelch interest in things still beyond their scope.

I envision the problem like developing a road system. You can get lots of places quite quickly, with freedom to stop off and dither anywhere else the roads go, and that's wonderful. Flip side of the coin is, no one goes into the woods anymore.

[MrSin]

Drychnath wrote:

So does anyone attempt to do these sorts of things, or their good or neutral equivalents, as PCs, or permit them as DMs?

Definitely! I mean, its meant to be a meta goal usually, but I think its one of those epic things you just have to have done sometimes(Depending on the campaign. Obviously causing the apocalypse isn't going to be done upfront in most cases...)

I have quiet a few characters with metagoals like that myself. I don't always expect it to happen, but I think its at least nice to think of things to have goals. Those are what your character strives for, it gives him depth and personality and a reason.

Past Lifes:

I've had several meta goals that were probably beyond the scope of the campaign. Here are a few my characters have had.

My first 3.5 character was a pirate in a steampunk setting. I had no idea what I was doing! My characters goal was to collect a rare commodity, apples. Fruit was rare, but he thought of the delicious things as life itself, and to be cherished and to keep them for special occasions, and safe under magical storage.

I had a wizard once who had several goals. Among those were making his step-mother proud(A succubus), reuniting with his lost love(a werecat), Ripping open a hole into the maelstrom and Elysium similar to the world wound, and destabilizing several countries to improve their infrastructure through a privatized group under his control. I built him with lots and lots of goals that could've been enacted if I got to play him long enough.

My last anti-paladin wanted to slay Saranrae. That's a pretty big goal... One I was really hoping he would succeed if the campaign didn't fizzle out.

My last druid only had the goal to protect one character, whom the GM decided would die before the game started and for some reason he couldn't figure out I left the game.

My psychic warrior I have waiting to be used has the meta goal of creating a machine of god.

Anyways, always keep a few goals. I think its awesome when you get to enact them. As a GM I always want to create a sense of progress and success and epic moments, and as a player I always look forward to finally enacting the master plan or completing a meta goal,

Drychnath wrote:

My curiosity is whether people actually want/attempt/succeed at such things, these days.

It may have been just my area, but I observed that having rules for so many things seemed to squelch interest in things still beyond their scope.

Pfft, GM fiat is a pretty powerful rule. Use with caution, its pretty potent stuff. You don't really have to add to a rules bloat. It can be a pretty cool narrative approach to just let things flow, if you know what I mean. Of course, this varies from game to game like anything else. I know a few games where I couldn't do anything to control fate, and others where I could do whatever I wanted! Lots of in between.

[Alexander Augunas]

This one, I'm pretty torn about. On one hand, its free plot for you if you help your players achieve their goals. On the other hand, you will sometimes get plot requests that could utterly destroy a setting if you allow them to happen (see above poster's comment on slaying a major Golarion god).

The worst I ever had was a player who wanted to try and make a nation where elves and drow lived together and ultimately went on to conquer the world. The idea was based off of Code Geas: Lelouche of the Rebellion, and while that's an awesome story, to this day I don't believe that its a story that translates well into a campaign setting; giving one player that much power seldom works out well in the long run. At the same time, everyone is guilty of doing this with their characters because everyone wants to make a lasting impact on the world. For example, my kitsune wants to remediation a generations-old feud between some jungle elves and some hobgoblins, which could heavily change that part of my GM's world.

If you have a problem with some of the crazy plots your PCs come up with, you should talk to them. Make your fears known to the player and talk it out. Maybe you will agree to let the story happen on the condition that you get the pick which events are canon within your world? Maybe you reserve the right to force the player to play in a game that unravels his previous PC's actions. Maybe you simply get to use that PC as an NPC in your world after his quest ends. There are solutions, but none of them can be reached if you and your player don't communicate.

[MrSin]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

(see above poster's comment on slaying a major Golarion god).

Pfft, she had it coming! Was more of a grudge against his life as a paladin than her though. Long story. Guy also had a twin brother, a sister, and a 'daughter' whom he was arranging to be used as a demonic vessel. Short goals! Those are good too, and that one doesn't have many rules for PCs either. You have to work with your GM to progress that sort of thing.

I did note that causing the apocalypse shouldn't be your campaigns first goal... At least not unless you want a post apocalypse setting for the rest of the game after.

Luckily, as Alex said, communication goes a long way. I've had several players only tell me their goals right at the moment they felt like enacting them, and obviously I didn't have much to do about things or time to think about what I could do.

[Drychnath]

I have never tackled it from a DM perspective, as I've only DM'd one-off adventures. From the player side, I try (these days) to be very conscientious of hijacking the campaign. I have two motivations really, both trend towards the self-serving. First, if I keep it small enough not to significantly deform the game world, the DM is more likely to approve it. Second, since the motivation for me is really the process rather than the end state, the sooner I can start, the longer I can drag it out. By way of example, resurrecting the cult of a dead or forgotten god, I imagine, might go something like this:

1) On the strength of something as small as a passing reference in a random book, the character can begin researches on the side, by conversing with priests of temples, combing convenient libraries during downtime. Special attention could be paid to searching for flavor materials in temple complexes, ancient tombs, etc during adventures. I could do this out of the gate, even first level.
2) Somewhere in the level five timeframe, I could begin recruitment efforts to aid me. Possibly with the aid of the leadership feat; someone charismatic, or violently capable, or perhaps a fallen cleric or Druid would make a good candidate, to aid in research and the recruitment of followers for the grand task.
3) Once my character starts getting access to spells that allow communication/travel between the planes, and the location of the body/essence of the god is discovered, the development of rituals can begin. Enter magical research, and the acquisition of relevant objects/components.
4) Upon successfully developing a connection with the deity, plot drama can enter the equation. Once the god begins to make demands of his cult, would the party be drawn into conflict with the PC? To what degree can my character control his relationship with the deity?

Everyone gets to participate more or less on their own terms, is the hope.