I have a question about delivering Touch Attacks while grappling.
Let's say my Antipaladin has a PC grappled. Do they still need to make the Touch Attack roll to activate a cruelty or is maintaining the grapple with a CMB roll good enough. Does the attacker using a Touch Attack have to release the grapple and then make the Touch Attack against the creature and it won't be grappled anymore?
How about the converse?
Let's say one of my PCs has the Antipaladin in a grapple. Do they have to escape the grapple in order to deliver a Touch Attack? I feel like they wouldn't need it because they're currently touching the target and the Touch Attack would automatically hit, but that might just be me.
So can anybody clarify how Grappling and Touch Attacks work with one another?
Thank you!
All quotes from the Grappling Section on PFSRD
For a grappled creature:
"Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you." - So attempting the touch attack is no problem.
For a creature grappling another:
There is a list of things you can do, none of which mention using a touch attack. The problem is you have to use a standard action to maintain the grapple and since using a touch attack it typically a standard action (and delivering a touch attack is not mentioned in the options of what you can use w/ the standard action to maintain the grapple), then you will not be able to use it unless the GM allows it as a house rule (which makes sense b/c they are already touching, but doesn't appear to be in the rules).
Grappling is one of those things that is a bit complicated, so if anyone thinks I missed anything, let me know. It's quite early. Thanks.
Let's say my Antipaladin has a PC grappled. Do they still need to make the Touch Attack roll to activate a cruelty or is maintaining the grapple with a CMB roll good enough. Does the attacker using a Touch Attack have to release the grapple and then make the Touch Attack against the creature and it won't be grappled anymore?
By the rules possibly if they had Greater Grapple. Still I'd allow the touch attack as one of your maintain the grapple options if I were the GM.
Let's say one of my PCs has the Antipaladin in a grapple. Do they have to escape the grapple in order to deliver a Touch Attack? I feel like they wouldn't need it because they're currently touching the target and the Touch Attack would automatically hit, but that might just be me.
The Antipaladin would not need to escape. The grapplee can make a full attack on the grappler. If the Antipaladin wanted to use Touch of Corruption he could do so, but it would not be automatic - attack roll vs touch AC required.
I'm not sure there is a clear answer, but I think for the purposes of being balanced it should still require a touch attack roll to deliver the touch spell and not be an automatic hit.
Strannik has it correct. If the PC is grappling the Antipaladin, then the Antipaladin can choose to let the grapple continue (not escape) and instead make a touch attack. He still has to roll to hit in order to deliver the touch attack.
Note:
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
The Grappled Condition applies to both sides of the grapple (unless a successful check to Pin has been made). So the Antipaladin will have -2 on his touch attack to-hit, but the PC will have -4 dex, so -2 AC vs touch attacks... which will even out. If the PC pins the antipaladin, the PC is no longer affected by the 'grapple' condition but the antipaladin is.
Strannik has it correct. If the PC is grappling the Antipaladin, then the Antipaladin can choose to let the grapple continue (not escape) and instead make a touch attack. He still has to roll to hit in order to deliver the touch attack.
Note:
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.The Grappled Condition applies to both sides of the grapple (unless a successful check to Pin has been made). So the Antipaladin will have -2 on his touch attack to-hit, but the PC will have -4 dex, so -2 AC vs touch attacks... which will even out. If the PC pins the antipaladin, the PC is no longer affected by the 'grapple' condition but the antipaladin is.
Small correction - if the PC pins the antipaladin the PC is still grappled. The PC would need to 'tie-up' the antipaladin.
Small correction - if the PC pins the antipaladin the PC is still grappled. The PC would need to 'tie-up' the antipaladin.
Indeed. In fact, it makes it worse for the PC in that the -4 to Dex changes to denied Dex bonus to AC. However, a pinned antipaladin cannot use touch attack abilities when pinned; he can only attempt to escape or do purely mental/vocal activities.