|
What is it about a monkey to squirrel transform that has people up in arms?
I dont know that anyone is particularly upset about that kind of example, but at the declaration of everything in general needing to be fixed, regardless of the kind of effect, and how detrimental that effect might be.
Mike Brock has ruled that any condition gained needs to be fixed before the end of the scenario/module. I would imagine it it being done as a blanket rule because it is easier to make a blanket rule and have a few corner cases not make sense (monkey to squirrel isnt terribly detrimental, so who cares?), than to list out each individual corner case, which would be an ever increasing list as more and more content is released and made legal for the game.
I hope that answers your question, and welcome to the forums! :)
|
|
Are there actually any scenarios that don't award enough gold to clear a condition you could possibly gain in it? Not counting the dead condition of course. But something you need dispel, remove curse, remove disease, break enchantment, restoration, etc to clear. I haven't played one yet, so I don't see exactly how you could be stuck with a condition that is too expensive to clear. The only exception I can come up with is if you die and can't afford to clear the negative levels. Perhaps this clarification isn't as damning as we originally thought. I could be wrong though.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
the main issue Robert, is that spells like dispel magic, remove curse, remove disease, et. al. require caster level checks. So paying for one, even with prestige, is not a guarantee that you clear the condition. You could end up paying several times before you clear the condition. And at lower levels, that could eat up all the gold, or possibly be more than what you earned.
|
|
Are there actually any scenarios that don't award enough gold to clear a condition you could possibly gain in it?
There might be, but it would probably be because the character suffers from multiple thigns that need to be cleared up (Got Diseased, poisoned, and blinded all in one scenario). But I dont think there are any scenarios with one single effect that will cost more to remove than the scenario gives out in GP.
|
|
Are there actually any scenarios that don't award enough gold to clear a condition you could possibly gain in it?There might be, but it would probably be because the character suffers from multiple thigns that need to be cleared up (Got Diseased, poisoned, and blinded all in one scenario). But I dont think there are any scenarios with one single effect that will cost more to remove than the scenario gives out in GP.
As Andrew points out, sometimes the dice are fickle and single condition could cost all your money for try after try after try...
|
|
I think we may be looking at this the wrong way. I think we all agree that any condition that is actually good for a player needs to be removed as a crazy exception. I think we all also agree that we don't want to exclude a character with a minor/playable condition from future missions if they simply cannot afford to fix it.
So:
Mike Brock: All conditions must be cleared by the end of the scenario.
Addendum: If the character cannot afford to do so before making any purchases, and the condition is not , the condition carries over to the next scenario.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And sometimes, you don't end up with full rewards from a scenario. Particularly those where you gain conditions that need clearing.
(There are scenarios where characters who go through the entire adventure but lose the last fight earn about 210 gp.)
|
|
As Andrew points out, sometimes the dice are fickle and single condition could cost all your money for try after try after try...Are there actually any scenarios that don't award enough gold to clear a condition you could possibly gain in it?There might be, but it would probably be because the character suffers from multiple thigns that need to be cleared up (Got Diseased, poisoned, and blinded all in one scenario). But I dont think there are any scenarios with one single effect that will cost more to remove than the scenario gives out in GP.
Yes, I didnt take that into account in my post, but he posted that while I was posting. And my point stands, disregarding the possibility of bad dice rolling.
For example, I dont think there are any scenarios where you can take a perma-negative level on subTier 1-2.
|
So:
Mike Brock: All conditions must be cleared by the end of the scenario.
Addendum: If the character cannot afford to do so before making any purchases, and the condition is not , the condition carries over to the next scenario.
That does nothing to address the corner cases of abuse that originated this kerfuffle. Your suggestion still relies on the GM to make the call.
|
|
For example, I dont think there are any scenarios where you can take a perma-negative level on subTier 1-2.
Yes, there is at least one.
|
|
And by corner cases, you are referring to polymorphing one's familiar from one animal type into another?
also, dice rolls should play no part when a caster level check is being paid for. take 10 on the check, pay once and be done with it. why try to draw this out more than you already have?
speaking of which, wow. this topic has gone so far out in left field its not even funny.
please just start a new post about detrimental conditions and effects underneath the rules discussion group, where this type of stuff belongs.
it feels like people are just trolling to get responses that do not pertain
|
|
For example, I dont think there are any scenarios where you can take a perma-negative level on subTier 1-2.Yes, there is at least one.
** spoiler omitted **
That specific example is why I bolded scenario. The one you listed is a module. Not the same thing. ;)
That module gives 1398gp. A Perma neg level, removed via Restoration, takes 1280ish gp to remove, so it gives enough to take care of the condition is gives...assuming you survive it. :P
|
I am going to be the odd man out on this... But actually I like Mike's new rule...
That said this can open up a new Common Boon that can be sent to qualifying event coordinators that can be gained by players that allows them to remove any conditions (Not including death) that has forced retired past characters allowing them to take them out of the Veteran Pathfinder Retirement home..
I am going to be the odd man out on this... But actually I like Mike's new rule...
That said this can open up a new Common Boon that can be sent to qualifying event coordinators that can be gained by players that allows them to remove any conditions (Not including death) that has forced retired past characters allowing them to take them out of the Veteran Pathfinder Retirement home..
So, you want this ruling to go into effect, kill everyone who is currently playable, and then be kind enough to give some people a boon to kinda' sorta' come back, rather than a ruling that they can come back and fix it next time? I would rather not kill off a bunch of characters who currently aren't dead, go through the work of a boon, and then pretend its being nice...
|
|
Fair enough but it still falls in to the category of a place where a 1st or 2nd level guy might get with a permanent negative level.1970Zombie, that's a module, not a scenario.
"Among the Dead" is an example of an intended-for-PFS scenario.
The 1st level guy will have the rather more pressing problem of being dead, but your point is valid.
|
|
Are there actually any scenarios that don't award enough gold to clear a condition you could possibly gain in it? Not counting the dead condition of course. But something you need dispel, remove curse, remove disease, break enchantment, restoration, etc to clear. I haven't played one yet, so I don't see exactly how you could be stuck with a condition that is too expensive to clear. The only exception I can come up with is if you die and can't afford to clear the negative levels. Perhaps this clarification isn't as damning as we originally thought. I could be wrong though.
Yes. Remember that diseases aren't automatically removed by remove disease. Its quite possible for a first level character to go bankrupt casting 2 or 3 of them.
Instead of the insanity of a squirrel pathfinder, we now have the insanity of a "dead" pathfinder for the stat equivalent of a paper-cut. Either way its an asylum...
|
|
Thanks to those of you who insist on skirting every damn rule to the edge of lunacy, we now have an overarching rule that hurts low level (and new) players. You have in one stroke caused more dead players than any other stupid-request to date. So thank you.
I had a rule in the guide. The way I read it allowed squirrel pathfinders. The way someone else read it meant you could be dead for a point of charisma damage or the flu. All I did was ask which way it was supposed to be read.
.
I had a rule in the guide. The way I read it allowed squirrel pathfinders. The way someone else read it meant you could be dead for a point of charisma damage or the flu. All I did was ask which way it was supposed to be read.
Given how the hammer came down earlier, are you REALLY sure you want to push the issue? You're not going "Hmm, you know what, I think PFS players haven't been worked over enough today- let's get another ruling" are you? I hope not.
I'm just thinking that the way things are going, by the end of this thread we'll probably end up with something like wands of cure light wounds and five- foot steps being banned. So be careful.
.
I had a rule in the guide. The way I read it allowed squirrel pathfinders. The way someone else read it meant you could be dead for a point of charisma damage or the flu. All I did was ask which way it was supposed to be read.
Given how the hammer came down earlier, are you REALLY sure you want to push the issue? You're not going "Hmm, you know what, I think PFS players haven't been worked over enough today- let's get another ruling" are you? I hope not.
I'm just thinking that the way things are going, by the end of this thread we'll probably end up with something like wands of cure light wounds and five- foot steps being banned. So be careful.
If you have a problem with the ruling, take it up with the people who made it, not with the people who disagreed with that interpretation.
|
|
Given how the hammer came down earlier, are you REALLY sure you want to push the issue?
I was not calling for the hammer. Apparently the hammer was supposed to be there all along, and some people were using it.
I'd rather have people know about the hammer in advance rather than run into Schrodinger's hammer. Don't shoot the messenger.
|
|
I think our best bet to continue being productive with this thread would be to look at where we can go from here.
Instead of trying to get the new ruling changed or to add any amount of additional pages to the guide we should focus on existing rulings and what has already been established.
I think character guidelines have already been set within the guide, so this should be the best avenue to pursue with the least amount of additional change needed:
1. If a character is hit with an affliction/curse/disease- does this reduce your stats below the already listed stat minimus?
a. Yes – fix by end of adventure or die.
b. No – fix whenever you get to it.
2. Does a condition bring you outside of already existing character generation playability? Example:
a. Blind / deaf – existing character class already sets precedence, so this is ok – fix whenever you get to it.
b. Permanently polymorphed into a squirrel – no existing class has this, fix by end of adventure or die
c. Negative level – if you are not at the cut off point for tier level groups – you’re good to go. If you are at the cut off point for your tier level – fix by end of adventure or die
Thoughts?
|
|
Nobody's claiming players are idiots, Andrew. The claim is that they're weasels.
Look, there are corner cases in the Pathfinder rules system that allow for broken characters.
I think you can fix the rules without being insulting to the people who are good at system mastery.
Calling someone who uses rules as written, regardless of a corner case, a "weasel" seems pretty harsh, especially when standard uses of abilities make totally broken characters
I am pretty sure that his definition of "weasel" is those players who use RAW as an excuse to avoid using common sense.
I am pretty sure that his definition of "weasel" is those players who use RAW as an excuse to avoid using common sense.
Really? I always thought weasels were little furry things. I hear there is this spell that lets you turn other people into weasels! But they lose pretty much all their class features and are an npc if they fail a will save.
Anyways, is it really healthy to berate people you can't see and calling them weasels or say they aren't using common sense? Someone might have fun RPing a ferret, I don't have a problem with this. However baleful polymorph is mostly a bad thing and it should probably be done in a homegame.
|
|
Just to make this more complicated for you rules-redesigning people:
The girdle of opposite gender PCs can find and use here
presents and opportunity for players to “rebuild” their
characters in a way normally not allowed. In general,
PCs should remain the same gender they begin play as,
but since there are no mechanical effects of switching
gender, it’s a fun way for PCs to interact with the
cursed items without altering their PCs’ usefulness in
the game.
I suppose this one may fall under the same exception as the evil ioun stone brought up earlier in the thread? Either way, I'd expect with the new ruling that a little YMMV will occur as to whether my wizard is considered "dead and unplayable" just because he decided it would be fun to send "his secretary" on missions instead of going himself.
So two issues from the second spoiler: 1) what if someone wants to keep this curse? (Under this new ruling, they're reported as dead) and 2) What about Summoners/Druids/Cavaliers/any character with a familiar: what happens if their companion gains a permanent condition like a curse? What about Summoners whose eidolons take ability damage--remember (in case you hate summoners/for some other reason don't know their rules: eidolons do not heal normally--neither health nor ability damage return without magical assistance. If an eidolon is not at full health/stats at the end of an adventure is the summoner reported as dead?
And a third wrench to throw in your gears: What about scenario sets like The Rats of Round Mountain 1 and 2 (3-18 or so and 3-22 or so?) No spoilers here since I've not played either, but if you were to get a condition in Rats I and
|
|
So...official ruling is that we ignore what the guide actually says and don't bother with resolve conditions and go straight to anything you catch while adventuring just goes right off your gold/pp? If I get a disease, I don't get saves to clear it anymore? So as soon as the fight ends, can the cleric cast remove disease on me the next day if they can? Or is it I have to pay for it at that point? Seems the whole resolves OR clear it is kinda moot if your gonna say you MUST clear it no if and or buts.
I think pathfinders need better health insurance.
Really, They send pathfinders home for good if they take a -1 drain and can't fix it. You would think the pathfinder society would have resources to help with that kind of thing, but apparently you need to spend your own earnings on it(pp/gold). Where's my insurance plan, eh? I get stabbed on a regular basis and fight demons in the abyss and that's how they repay me!? At least dental so I can look nice while I do it?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Think of your prestige as your Catastrophic coverage, with a low lifetime max* and a high out of pocket. Your deductable/coinsurance goes down the less you use it.
(Yes, I work Health Insurance, thus I know the lingo.)
*
PP is ideally for consumables yes, but my point was that your being rewarded with your own coverage. Can I get something up front please? A 500 gold allowance for those broken bones maybe?
So, when you die and get back to life with PP. Who tells them to rez you?
A deeper question is, can I take life insurance on myself? Being rezzed is expensive! Do I still get my money if I'm alive? Fantasy health coverage has all sorts of problems. Maybe its run by Pharasmans who take it out on you if you get a resurrection?
|
|
You have to resolve the condition, nothing says you have to buy a cure. If you clear the disease by just making fort saves at the end of the scenario, then you saved 150+ GP for the remove disease. If the party Cleric casts Remove Blindness/Deafness on you, you saved 60 GP. And so on....
Okay...so not as bad as I thought. Still kind of an annoyance that you can't carry conditions over til you can pay for it...and that means thornkeep 1 is kinda bad for ANYONE since I doubt there is any 1-2 that can afford a restoration....
If this is gonna be the case, I think PFS sanctioned low tier mods/scenarios need a second look through honestly and have some of the ones that you can gain condition you have NO chance to clear or resolve at those levels (besides death) be shelved.
Nah, the Decemvirate has more important things to worry about than the welfare of their expendable agents.(INSERT SHADOW LODGE IS THE BEST LODGE RANT HERE!)
Good news everyone! Your all heading to the world wound. Its a terrible place, filled with demons and awful odors. Oh yes, and we've reduced your pay, and now require you to be in the upmost health in every adventure! Oh yes, and the shadow and lantern lodges have left us, so you'll be getting no help from them.
|
|
Actually, I thought we were all supposed to be adventurers?
Isn't our lot in life to do what others are too afraid to do?
There's a reason NPCs get paid silver pieces per day, while we are getting 500-3500gp per adventure.
Also, without the fear of death present, what is the point of playing? where's the challenge?
if the developers remove all sharp or pointy ends, doesn't it just become DnD bumper-rails mode?
I don't want an illusion of excitement, I want the nail biting, poison dripping, undead filled sense of edge of my seat play.
to quote a bad movie, "this isn't mission difficult, that's a walk in the park, this is mission impossible."
If your 'death' was going from 11 to 10 strength on a wizard though, then it has nothing to do with the illusion of excitement. It also is after all the adventure is done anyway, so there wasn't any excitement involved.
|
|
You have to resolve the condition, nothing says you have to buy a cure. If you clear the disease by just making fort saves at the end of the scenario, then you saved 150+ GP for the remove disease. If the party Cleric casts Remove Blindness/Deafness on you, you saved 60 GP. And so on....Okay...so not as bad as I thought. Still kind of an annoyance that you can't carry conditions over til you can pay for it...and that means thornkeep 1 is kinda bad for ANYONE since I doubt there is any 1-2 that can afford a restoration....
If this is gonna be the case, I think PFS sanctioned low tier mods/scenarios need a second look through honestly and have some of the ones that you can gain condition you have NO chance to clear or resolve at those levels (besides death) be shelved.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that thorn keep awards more than enough gold to pay for a restoration. Something to the tune of 1400 gold or so. If you are level one you won't need the restoration though.
|
|
Actually, I thought we were all supposed to be adventurers?
Isn't our lot in life to do what others are too afraid to do?
There's a reason NPCs get paid silver pieces per day, while we are getting 500-3500gp per adventure.Also, without the fear of death present, what is the point of playing? where's the challenge?
I don't want an illusion of excitement, I want the nail biting, poison dripping, undead filled sense of edge of my seat play.
to quote a bad movie, "this isn't mission difficult, that's a walk in the park, this is mission impossible."
That would be fine. Dying because your character failed a save and can't afford to clear that -1 charisma drain right then and there isn't anything you said however....
