Need a reason to not be human....


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The title says it all. Before anyone answers I would like to say that I am well aware that humans are purposely intended to be the go to race who is highly adaptable and blah blah blah. that is not my purpose or intent in this thread. instead I am searching for a reason beyond pure roleplay or fluff to be a non human. I think I c ONE reason but let me make my case first...

1) When seeking to be THE face of the group, no race that I am aware of will ever have as much potential as a human. By replacing skilled racial trait for silver tongue trait they can get a +2 to two social skills and be able to shift an attitude by 3 steps. So even if someone else could somehow match the raw numbers that the human reaches the human has a higher ceiling on its impact. Also noteworthy is the bonus feat can bump face skills up at less cost than most other races. The half-elf has skill focus though. Focused study trait is also scary when u consider that over a long career a human can get all social skills skill focused with ever burning anything more than the bonus feat he had at level one. YIKES!!!

2) One of the great advantages of non-humans and their half breeds are that they can get a +2 to two different attributes, even if at a -2 to another stat. while that makes some combinations of race and class terrible it also makes for magnificent combinations as well. With Dual Talent, humans can have +2 to any two attributes they want to. even if the cost is horrific, this can make even MAD classes well within reach for humans. In my opinion, this to some extent makes the half-elf and half-orc weaker as then they become the only ones bound to a single attribute increase.

3) If u want to be a skill monkey look no further than human from where I sit. Get a human of 13 INT or more with fast learner feat in combination with the skilled trait and you are effectively getting 2 more skill points every level than someone else of the same stats and design. I actually like this, a LOT, but not when this list of human greatness is so long. Again focused study is scary for this role.

4) The human favored class bonuses based on race are among the best in the game. I wouldn't say they had the best across the board, for a specific class, etc but they are pretty good I think.

5) Finally the default bonus feat... I think it would be safe to say that ANY class that isn't full BAB suffers from not being able to get prime feat selections like power attack and similar feats that need a +1 BAB. well the human bonus feat will soften that blow a bit in any number of ways. I feel this point is too big to speak of here but the possibilities are long and great.

So where do the other races come into play in my eyes? When the two attributes u get a bonus to are primary and secondary stats AND the -2 is in a dump stat.

Example: A tiefling magus is +2 int and dex (the most important for dervish magus) and the -2 is dump stat anyway. Thus the tiefling is best suited for that role even above an elf. A human could match the attributes but at the cost of everything else and thus the tiefling will still have racial bonuses to skills and such.

But look how narrow that circumstance was... there are multiple builds for a magus but only on a dervish build of a class did a non human (teifling in this case) DECIDELY come out on top. If a strength based magus was being played then who is going to compete with the human?

BOTTOM LINE: What have I missed? In Terms of GAME MECHANICS where is an incentive to be a non-human? I view a cornerstone of fantasy genre on the whole is that u can be a different species. though I can be anytime I wish here, if I get bitten by the power gamer or optimization bug where do I need to look to be a non-human? I would prefer to not break it down into a specific build and circumstances that are as "narrow" as my tiefling magus example but I will take anything you readers have to offer me.

I thank you for your time in reading and hope you can tell me im wrong.


Play half orc and replace darkvision with skilled and ferocity with sacred tatoo and you traded the human bonus feat for +2 intimidating, greataxe and falchion proficiency and +1 to all saves. Use a feat to get a bite attack.

Goblins work awesome with any dervish dance feat or agile weapon property route.


Ratfolk would be brilliant arcane tricksters (stats and darkvision) but I also would suggest you explore the implications of their tailblade, particularly for a blade focussed rogue. The Int & Dex bonuses to a small degree cancels out the extra skill point or gives a better chance of dex based skills. In short potentially the perfect scout.


Multiclassing:
Half Elfes - Multitalented: get 2 faf. classes, with the multitalernted mastery feat every class is a faf. class


Half elves get some good stuff, Dwarves get a big bonus to their saves via one of their race options iirc, half orcs get access to bite and a neat witch archtype among other stuff.

But ... and this is a big but I cannot lie, you can never go wrong with human. And that is their greatest advantage, no class in the game suffers from having a +2 to any ability + a feat + a skill point per level, so a human is a good anything in the game, in certain cases you'll find that they're not as good at specific things as other races though.

For example say a Dwarf Monk or Barbarian gets a +2 to Con and Wis both good stats while dumping Cha which they usually doesn't care about then on top of that he gets everything else in his kit like the save bonus etc this may or may not measure up to what a human gets but it makes it more of a fair trade.

Generally speaking if you pick a non human race it's because you want one of the specific abilities or archetypes or it's for fluff this generally means you'll have to do some reading/thinking to be sure if it's going to work out for you though.


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Why would you need a reason beyond roleplay?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Daarkvision


The only time I ever choose to make a human is if I desperately need the bonus feat to get some kind of feat chain or combination in effect by a certain level without class dipping.

If I'm bitten by the optimisation bug as you say then there is very often a race that can specialize more into a specific role than a human can, by whatever combination of favoured class bonus, racial bonuses, ability modifiers or just plain funk you decide to use. It really just depends on what you want your character to be able to do. Kitsune sorcerers would be possibly the best enchanters, gnomish illusionists, aasimar can make fantastic oracles and bards with earlier than normal revelation/performance progression, dwarves are an amazing choice for prioritising survivability and defences, swordtrained tengu, race choices for natural attackers or wanting prehensile tails for faster potion quaffing, gaining flight or climb speeds through non-magical means, free poison use ability or natural poisons, wanting access to a specific racial archetype, there are a bunch of options from an optimisation standpoint where non-humans make a better choice than a human made for the same role.

Scarab Sages

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Renegadeshepherd wrote:
The title says it all.

Gnomes are cooler.

The only reason you need.


I think the idea is that while Humans make a pretty good everything, there are specific races that are fantastic at certain classes. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves make great inquisitors, Elves make great wizards, Dwarves are good for most any fighter type etc...Plus dont discount improved vision, bonuses to things like perception and alternate race traits that are great for specific campaigns..

Sure you can make a good character from any class using a human, but there are certain races that fill a specific niche just a little bit better. Take my current inquisitor for example, sure I could have been a human and taken exotic weapon proficiency to get my weapon of choice, or I could take Half-Elf which gets me Ancestral weapon for the same net result and the other bonuses dovetail to the class just that little bit better.


Maybe its just me, but didn't you answer your own question?


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Aasimar.

Aasimar get two +2 bonuses to stats without any negatives. Various sub races make it pretty easy to customize to a specific class. With alternate race features you can even get a +4 and a +2, or a third +2 Stat, with DM approval. Aasimar can also be Small, picking up a +1 AC and +1 to hit. They gain wings and can fly for a feat after level 10. Some of the best racial SLAs in the game, and a feat that can bonus the base version spell Daylight to gain Sunbeam (7th level Druid Spell) as a SLA at 9th level.

Still want to be human? Just take the Scion of Humanity alternate race trait and you count as human.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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The reason? Dwarves. Both mechanically and for flavor, they're just awesome.

Sure, humans are a good, versatile race for pretty much anything. However, other races are better for specific classes/builds/whatever. People have already started to list some of these, it seems.

Sovereign Court

Tiefling has a lot going for it, with all the heritages giving you different racial stat adjustments, 3 resistances to common elemental damage types (and I think racial feats to increase them if you want), plus cool racial feats (Armour of the Pit, I'm looking at you).

Depending on class choice, I think Tieflings are almost as versatile as humans. (And Oni-Spawn Tieflings make awesome choices for a Monk, because of +2 STR and WIS, as well as Armour of the Pit for +2 extra AC).

But to some extent, I agree with you. In D&D 3.5, I almost always chose Human, mainly for the bonus feat. So many of my builds really benefited from that extra feat. As for Pathfinder, they're still good, but the extra feat isn't as crucial since you now get a feat every odd level.


Darkvision

Effortless Trickery


suli, because you can light your arms on fire...ON FREAKING FIRE!


Isnt comparing tiefling to human a bit unfair, since tiefling has more race points?

Silver Crusade

Rashagar wrote:

The only time I ever choose to make a human is if I desperately need the bonus feat to get some kind of feat chain or combination in effect by a certain level without class dipping.

If I'm bitten by the optimisation bug as you say then there is very often a race that can specialize more into a specific role than a human can, by whatever combination of favoured class bonus, racial bonuses, ability modifiers or just plain funk you decide to use.

This.

That human bonus feat and extra skill rank per level are hard to pass up, especially for any feat starved build idea or skill starved class. Humans are always going to be one of the top choices for any build idea. But there are plenty of specific builds where human would be the second best race for the build, and another race would be better, as in the examples Rashagar pointed out.

Case in point: I recently made a "bad touch" cleric, and I was planning to go human, primarily because clerics need all the skill ranks they can get. Then I realized that half orcs can give up their darkvision for the same bonus skill rank every level. So compare the other advantages of human vs half orc. Humans get a bonus feat, which isn't really essential for this build, and not much of anything else. Half orc can get a +1 to every saving throw (Sacred Tattoo), +2 on Knowledge (Local) and whip proficiency (City Raised), and the half-orc favored class bonus to gain more uses per day of level 1 domain powers, on a build that revolves around its level 1 domain powers. No contest - half-orc works better mechanically for my specific build, as well as adding a distinct flavor that works well with a cleric of the pirate goddess. And thus begins the legend of Green Beard the Pirate. :P

Similarly, I have a buff based cleric who is a halfling for fluff reasons first, but the size bonus to AC and favored class bonus to his uses per day of the Luck domain power are perfect for the build.

And then there are racial archetypes, like my gnome bard who has the prankster archetype from the Advanced Race Guide.


I'll add my voice to the chorus. I often find it hard to not play a human. They're good at everything. However, there are plenty of builds that will benefit more from a specific race.

I just got finished proxy-playing a dual-cursed gnome oracle of life with the haunted and wrecker curses. I focused on the tank and save-or-die aspects of the build, so the +Con and +Cha was great, while the -Str was inconsequential. There weren't any extra feats I really needed, and I had enough skill points for my purposes. Meanwhile, the gnome alternate racial features of Academician, Eternal Hope, Darkvision, and (especially!) Pyromaniac came in handy time and again. Produce Flame once a day was wonderfully useful for a sprite that couldn't really use weapons.


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I'll submit the wild and unconventional notion that your character doesn't have to be the mechanically best option possible for the role you want to play, just that it needs to be capable of doing the job.


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I'll submit the wild and unconventional notion that your character doesn't have to be the mechanically best option possible for the role you want to play, just that it needs to be capable of doing the job.

You be crazy, Adamantine Dragon!

Grand Lodge

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Calybos1 wrote:

Why would you need a reason beyond roleplay?

What's this roleplay thing again? I can't find a space for it on my Uber Theorycrafting Spreadsheet.


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flamethrower49 wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I'll submit the wild and unconventional notion that your character doesn't have to be the mechanically best option possible for the role you want to play, just that it needs to be capable of doing the job.
You be crazy, Adamantine Dragon!

Indeed I be. And if that isn't proof enough, I'll submit the vastly more insane notion that sometimes I deliberately play a less than optimal character because I like the challenge!


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
flamethrower49 wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I'll submit the wild and unconventional notion that your character doesn't have to be the mechanically best option possible for the role you want to play, just that it needs to be capable of doing the job.
You be crazy, Adamantine Dragon!
Indeed I be. And if that isn't proof enough, I'll submit the vastly more insane notion that sometimes I deliberately play a less than optimal character because I like the challenge!

But then you have people tell you that are not being optimally sub-optimal .


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Artanthos wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
The title says it all.

Gnomes are cooler.

The only reason you need.

Gnomes are cooler? I like the Dungeon Bastard's response to that one.

Liberty's Edge

Don't play a human because you want to play something that isn't human.

*shrug*

Licensing Coordinator

Bane Weapons...


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So far I've seen 4 reasons to not be human

Vision
Take a build to extreme optimization (whatever it may be)
Fluff
Because u just do t want to playa human

Did I miss one?

The main point I'm making is with the additions from advanced races to humans has the game AS A SYSTEM been damaged? For those that just play no of course not. But for optimizers and similar minded folk I'm far less certain.

The Exchange

I'm sorry, my usual position is that playing humans is good, and that somebody's got to do it. I regularly play a human (and sometimes even a human fighter) just so all those half-drow swashbucklers, mantis-man barbarians, and double-jointed vanara arcane tricksters can compare themselves to somebody baseline. I started doing it waaaay back when The Complete Book of Humanoids came out at around the same time as Drow of the Underdark. Even did it in 4E (where they had a slight edge when playing a Defender.)

Sczarni

Humans are like the Arcane bloodline for sorcerers. They're the "boring but practical" option-- they're straightforward and they don't really do anything flashy, but they're a solid mechanical choice.


Silent Saturn wrote:
Humans are like the Arcane bloodline for sorcerers. They're the "boring but practical" option-- they're straightforward and they don't really do anything flashy, but they're a solid mechanical choice.

Well said.


Asimar can be small with a +2 to strength and charisma which makes them the best mounted combat bunnies by far as well as having darkvision, energy resistance and immunity to person spells (such as vampire dominate).


Wind Chime wrote:
Asimar can be small with a +2 to strength and charisma which makes them the best mounted combat bunnies by far as well as having darkvision, energy resistance and immunity to person spells (such as vampire dominate).

mmm, in what book is that?


Nicos wrote:
Wind Chime wrote:
Asimar can be small with a +2 to strength and charisma which makes them the best mounted combat bunnies by far as well as having darkvision, energy resistance and immunity to person spells (such as vampire dominate).
mmm, in what book is that?

blood of angels.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
BOTTOM LINE: What have I missed? In Terms of GAME MECHANICS where is an incentive to be a non-human? I view a cornerstone of fantasy genre on the whole is that u can be a different species. though I can be anytime I wish here, if I get bitten by the power gamer or optimization bug where do I need to look to be a non-human? I would prefer to not break it down into a specific build and circumstances that are as "narrow" as my tiefling magus example but I will take anything you readers have to offer me.

lets see my list

- Darkvision/low light vision: yeah they do not rise DPR, nor they grant you give you more spell per day, but IMHE in actual game they are pretty good to have (specially darkvision of course)

- Free weapon proficiencies: yeah as a human you can spend the bonus feat in that, but that let the human with just the extra skill of advantage, the half-orc rogue/inquisitor/bard/cleric that wields a falchion have darkvision, a bonus to intimidate and a +1 luck bonus to all the saves.

and now some more specifics

Dwarf: they can just have a much better set of saving trow tahnks to glory of the old and steel soul. They are great martials (even paladins), great clerics and inquisitors and very good sorcerers.

Halflings: bonus to all saves, bonus to attack that more or less compensate the str penalty and give them an edge in ranged attacks. no longer slower. Much better at mounted combat.

I love halfling as front liner martials, particulary with the awesome risky striker. they are also great cha based spellcasters.

elf: great wizards, sorcerers and archers. the long bow proficiency open builds like the arcehr cleric. Te bonus to Int is basically the extra skill to the humans.

Gnomes: sorry gnomes just sucks.

Silver Crusade

+5 Toaster wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Wind Chime wrote:
Asimar can be small with a +2 to strength and charisma which makes them the best mounted combat bunnies by far as well as having darkvision, energy resistance and immunity to person spells (such as vampire dominate).
mmm, in what book is that?
blood of angels.

Not legal in PFS, in case anyone cares. Aasimar are required to be medium sized in PFS, though I think the rest of that is allowed.


Elves are better against spell resistance.
Small races can ride medium mounts along corridors.
Races with natural weapons can inflict massive melee damage from early levels.
Strix can fly.

Liberty's Edge

Mostly, I play humans, too, but the other races rock in their own right. It's all a matter of what you're looking for.


Wanted to thank everyone for posting. Some of these things I never seen or played and will set aside for future games.

The Exchange

Ill add on to the dark vision team.

Dwarves are amazing casters (sorceror using wis or cleric) and martials (paladin, ranger, monk, barbarian, more barbarian, i really love dwarf barbarians, and fighters since they can steal spell sunder from barbarians).


Specific mega build - Kitsune Enchantment focussed Sorcerer for IMMENSE save DC's on enchantment magics - ad if the DM allows spell research well, you can research away some of the limitations of spells like sleep.

Contributor

The ultimate Game Mechanic is setting. If you're playing in a game set in Kyonin, for example, where the elves are xenophobic and, to put it bluntly, racist, you're going to have trouble getting around as anything other than an elf. Similarly play a game underground where the tunnels have a head clearance for dwarves at best, you're not going to want to play a human either. And think about Gandalf walking around in Bilbo's house. Possible for a short visit, but for an extended one?


Gametechnics wise?

Medium sized: You can not ride an animal companion of your choice (it has to be a horse or something) at lower levels. A huge game mechanic there.

Darkvision: Stealth classes suffer GREATLY when not having darkvision...
It's kinda hard to stab something in the dark while you can't see the one you're supposed to stab all sneakylike....and you can't hide in the dark while holding a torch or wielding a light spell....No sneak attack bonus for you!

Flavor wise?
Ask any Half-orc why he wouldn't want to be full human....he'll just grin at you and tell you to ask your questions to the ladies, not him.


How about "the gm doesnt use every single book and feat".
It might not be the case in every game, but its certainly a valid one in mine.

As people have mentioned, darkvision can be a terrific advantage in certain campaigns.

In my games fluff is always as important ,if not more so , than rules. So, yeah, perhaps the dwarves dont let humans into their fortress, or the elves cook humans on campfires...

Beyond that...well, once *any* game becomes expansion-book bloated, there's always something that can do everything if you look hard enough. Dont get me wrong, pathfinders a great game, but you've got to look at how many expansion books there are with class and feat options in them ....there's bound to be stuff you can abuse (shrug).

Personally, i'm not a great believer in classes and levels as a concept in rpgs being that great an idea. think pathfinder/d&d 3rd make up for some of its inherrent flaws by the use of feats , but its impossible to playtest every combination once they set themslves on a business model of bringing out new classes and feats in so many expansions (which is what many gamers desire and buy - and any company has to live on its purchases)

Overall i think paizo do a good job ... But yeah, there will be all kind of inconsistencies by now.


Challenge! Sometimes I fine myself the only optimizer in a group so I play a halfling barbarian or rogue with out a dex or str bump and sometimes a penalty. With thin handicap I can op to my hearts content and still not not overshadow others.


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...I always tend to look for natural weapons. The only way that humans can get those are through very specific feats (many of which can be used by other races for even more of attacks or are just silly like a human with kobold ancestry)

Also, kitsune are interesting since they can acquire Realistic likeness. That feat allows them to change into just about any one as a swift action. Just go around a corner to get some cover, and your pursuers suddenly lose you. It can be frightening.


lemeres wrote:

...I always tend to look for natural weapons. The only way that humans can get those are through very specific feats (many of which can be used by other races for even more of attacks or are just silly like a human with kobold ancestry)

Also, kitsune are interesting since they can acquire Realistic likeness. That feat allows them to change into just about any one as a swift action. Just go around a corner to get some cover, and your pursuers suddenly lose you. It can be frightening.

Re: Kitsune & Realistic Likeness. As long as you can change your clothes as well that is. Reversible Cloak?


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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
And think about Gandalf walking around in Bilbo's house. Possible for a short visit...

I see what you did there.


strayshift wrote:
lemeres wrote:

...I always tend to look for natural weapons. The only way that humans can get those are through very specific feats (many of which can be used by other races for even more of attacks or are just silly like a human with kobold ancestry)

Also, kitsune are interesting since they can acquire Realistic likeness. That feat allows them to change into just about any one as a swift action. Just go around a corner to get some cover, and your pursuers suddenly lose you. It can be frightening.

Re: Kitsune & Realistic Likeness. As long as you can change your clothes as well that is. Reversible Cloak?

Or just tear away clothes and a second set underneath. That is still within a decent action economy.


Catfolk can get scent, claws, climb speed with feats and alternate racial traits.

Lashunat have telepathy and useful spell powers.

Strix/Syrinx both can fly

Undine, Gillmen, and Merfolk have a swim speed.

Elves, Drow, Deugar, Androids, and Ghorans have immunities.

Kitsune have shapeshifting ability.

Grippli and Vanra have a climb speed.

The real question is why play human if you could play any of the cool races in pathfinder.

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