Here are the facts from the Kickstarter blog.
....
Tinkergoth Pat Robertson is a right wing American evangelical TV minister. He's had a large hold over the Christian right but it's been fading over the last year or so along with his health. I doubt Kickstarter is much influenced by him.
Thanks for the heads up. I suspected it'd be something like that, or that he'd be some kind of tabletop gaming version of Jack Thompson.
I've recently been teaching one of my cousins, and some of her friends (the group is 2 guys, 3 girls, all 13 years old) how to play Pathfinder. I made sure that my aunt had spoken with all of the parents beforehand to make sure they were all okay with it, and hung around after the first session to introduce myself to them as they arrived to pick up the kids. The unanimous response that I got was that they felt their children were smart enough to differentiate game from reality, and that as long as they continued to understand that the violent responses they had to in game situations were only appropriate in the context of the game, then there was no issue with it.
I think it's worth noting here as well that I discovered, to my shock, that one of those 13 year old girls in the group is the most blood thirsty person I've ever met. I think the most "What the F%$&" inducing moment in that game so far has been her reaction when I mentioned that there were some bored looking guards watching the item they'd come to retrieve from a local gallery... I was trying to make it clear that the guards clearly weren't that interested in their jobs, and could be bribed... So she tells me that she's going to walk up with a charged shocking grasp held in her hand behind her back, say hi to one of them, then kick him in the balls and shocking grasp his face... Kids today. The thing is though, once again, outside of the game she's nothing like that. She's just a very sweet, shy little girl who happens to play a really good borderline psychopathic sorcereress.
[EDIT]: Helps if I actually close the spoiler tag.
So you were both the shy suitor and committing assault.
You're forgetting the mens rea there. It's intent if you're wondering. It is not a strict liability law.
You're also forgetting the reasonable person standard. A reasonable person would have to be offended under the same circumstances.
What is it about this thread that makes peoples' reading comprehension abilities plummet?
Even the link provided by Comrade Jeff indicates that I was "guilty" of battery, which is "distinct from assault."
What is it about this thread that makes peoples' reading comprehension abilities plummet?
Even the link provided by Comrade Jeff indicates that I was "guilty" of battery, which is "distinct from assault."
Inorite?
Also their ability to understand basic categorical logic.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I knew that, but didn't really want to get into it. Technically, assault is threatening, battery is actually doing it, but common parlance uses assault for actually doing it.
No common parlance that I have ever encounted defined draping your arm around your date's shoulders, or holding their hand without first asking for express permission, as assault or battery.
Two people making out and a guy making a move to slide his hand to third is not going to be prosecuted as rape. At worst it would be attempted rape, which no DA is going to prosecute unless its statutory.The guy making a move won't be. Him not stopping when she says "No"- even "No Billy. I'm not ready yet!" - would certainly be sexual assault.
Edit: Or sexual battery, if you want to be pedantic. Or some other legal term depending on the laws in your jurisdiction. Some US states have apparently dropped "rape" as a legal term, replacing it with various degrees of "sexual assault", "criminal sexual conduct", "sexual abuse", "sexual battery" etc.
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue balls I encourage you to find any court in the U.S. that will listen to this case.
If we want to talk about actual sexual assault and not be silly about this then ok.
Congratulations! You've just demonstrated why so many Rapists go un-convicted, if the case even winds up going to trial...
Congratulations! You've just demonstrated why so many Rapists go un-convicted, if the case even winds up going to trial...
Wait...what?
Again with reading comprehension fails.The situation just described is one in which the would-be aggressor explicitly leaves rather than forcing himself on a victim and you interpret that as an instance of a rapist going unconvincted?
*head asplode*
Successful (I.E.: ones who avoid prison time) Rapists are successful because they 'game' the system. They use tactics which mind-f$+% their victims just as much as they physically mistreat them.
Tactics such as testing the victim's boundaries & more importantly the victim's responses to tested boundaries.
Sure, the guy will 'back off' initially, once the victim has pushed back hard enough, but then they will come back again later & try it again
& again
& again...
If the intended victim finally gets wise & either leaves or makes as scene, the guy moves on to his next 'target'.
This is not the behavior of an 'ordinary guy who just wants to have fun', this is the behavior of a predator, a sexual predator.
They get away with it, because:
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue balls I encourage you to find any court in the U.S. that will listen to this case.
If we want to talk about actual sexual assault and not be silly about this then ok.
Congratulations! You've just demonstrated why so many Rapists go un-convicted, if the case even winds up going to trial...Two people making out and a guy making a move to slide his hand to third is not going to be prosecuted as rape. At worst it would be attempted rape, which no DA is going to prosecute unless its statutory.The guy making a move won't be. Him not stopping when she says "No"- even "No Billy. I'm not ready yet!" - would certainly be sexual assault.
Edit: Or sexual battery, if you want to be pedantic. Or some other legal term depending on the laws in your jurisdiction. Some US states have apparently dropped "rape" as a legal term, replacing it with various degrees of "sexual assault", "criminal sexual conduct", "sexual abuse", "sexual battery" etc.
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue balls I encourage you to find any court in the U.S. that will listen to this case.
If we want to talk about actual sexual assault and not be silly about this then ok.
except that the guy in this hypothetical example went home with blue balls. Are you suggesting that he's a rapist for trying twice and failing twice?
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Congratulations! You've just demonstrated why so many Rapists go un-convicted, if the case even winds up going to trial...Wait...what?
Again with reading comprehension fails.The situation just described is one in which the would-be aggressor explicitly leaves rather than forcing himself on a victim and you interpret that as an instance of a rapist going unconvincted?
*head asplode*
I interpreted that post as saying kmal2t's attitude is an attitude that discourages reporting rape and sexual assault, and leads to acquittal during trials due to a prevalent cultural attitude of dismissal - especially if the victim is subject to any kind of assault other than violent stranger rape.
Successful (I.E.: ones who avoid prison time) Rapists are successful because they 'game' the system. They use tactics which mind-f&$+ their victims just as much as they physically mistreat them.
Tactics such as testing the victim's boundaries & more importantly the victim's responses to tested boundaries.
Sure, the guy will 'back off' initially, once the victim has pushed back hard enough, but then they will come back again later & try it again
& again
& again...
If the intended victim finally gets wise & either leaves or makes as scene, the guy moves on to his next 'target'.This is not the behavior of an 'ordinary guy who just wants to have fun', this is the behavior of a predator, a sexual predator.
They get away with it, because:
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue balls I encourage you to find any court in the U.S. that will listen to this case.
If we want to talk about actual sexual assault and not be silly about this then ok.
this is worrysome because it means that everyone is a serial sexual predator. I can assure you not everyone has wanted to have sex with me- I never stopped looking for someone who would. Does this mean I'm some kind of monster?
I've been lurking in this thread because I'm seeing a strange skew toward this philosophy. I hope it's just the literal nature of a text based messageboard, however.
This is worrisome because it means that everyone is a serial sexual predator. I can assure you not everyone has wanted to have sex with me- I never stopped looking for someone who would. Does this mean I'm some kind of monster?
I've been lurking in this thread because I'm seeing a strange skew toward this philosophy. I hope it's just the literal nature of a text based messageboard, however.
Are you always just looking for someone to have sex with you?
When someone says no, is it because they aren't interested, or because you crossed a boundary?
If they say no, because they aren't interested, do you accept that & see if there is someone who is; or do you try again later even though they have already said no?
If you have crossed a boundary, do you recognize it, take it as an opportunity to decide not to push that boundary with someone in the future & go on with your life?
These are not trick questions. The answers should be fairly obvious.
I interpreted that post as saying kmal2t's attitude is an attitude that discourages reporting rape and sexual assault, and leads to acquittal during trials due to a prevalent cultural attitude of dismissal - especially if the victim is subject to any kind of assault other than violent stranger rape.
Congratulations! You've just demonstrated why so many Rapists go un-convicted, if the case even winds up going to trial...Wait...what?
Again with reading comprehension fails.The situation just described is one in which the would-be aggressor explicitly leaves rather than forcing himself on a victim and you interpret that as an instance of a rapist going unconvicted?
*head asplode*
Pretty much what Jess said, with the caveat that in the instance referenced, the guy in question did not explicitly leave, he left for a while, came back & tried again
he tried the exact same coercive behavior again until he found someone who was either unsure, or tired or just not assertive enough to tell him 'Get out of my face you low-life sack of shit or I'm calling the Cops on your Ass.' He kept trying, safe in the knowledge, that as long as he was 'just being friendly, maybe a little too friendly' none of the girls would call the cops on him because as kmal2t pointed out, 'It's not real sexual assault.'
I like how he capitalized rapists. Clearly this is a group he respects enough to make a proper noun.
I like how the best rebuttal you could come up with was the fact that I try & keep my grammar in these posts as accurate & professional as I can.
Did this thread degrade into what is and isn't rape?
I think we all know that whenever a woman regrets consensual sex that is rape and whenever a drunk abusive man has forceful sex with an unwilling woman that isn't rape.
I thought it was common knowledge that the person at fault is always legally in the right.
My motto is to avoid sex with people you don't intimately know and trust.
So far I have mastered the avoidance part.
This is worrisome because it means that everyone is a serial sexual predator. I can assure you not everyone has wanted to have sex with me- I never stopped looking for someone who would. Does this mean I'm some kind of monster?
I've been lurking in this thread because I'm seeing a strange skew toward this philosophy. I hope it's just the literal nature of a text based messageboard, however.
1.Are you always just looking for someone to have sex with you?
2.When someone says no, is it because they aren't interested, or because you crossed a boundary?
3.If they say no, because they aren't interested, do you accept that & see if there is someone who is; or do you try again later even though they have already said no?
4.If you have crossed a boundary, do you recognize it, take it as an opportunity to decide not to push that boundary with someone in the future & go on with your life?
5.These are not trick questions. The answers should be fairly obvious.
1- according to my wife, yeah. :D I am not ashamed of my desires and never have been.
2- uhh..yes? For some people just being asked is crossing a boundary. I have experienced both with my wife.
3-being married, I have had to accept no and try again later otherwise this marriage would get boring. Or my wife would leave me for cheating on her. In my single days I've been refused before and taken up on a later offer, sometimes in the same night.
4-I've certainly made an ass of myself before, although I've pushed the same boundaries with different people and had different results. For some people being an ass really works, for others its terrible.
5- maybe not as obvious to me as they are to you.
Some people are too stupid to realize this is obvious trollery and when I looked at it closer it looks like its meant to be a satire on "improving your game"-type books.
I don't believe I'm stupid, and I think that it doesn't *matter* what the intent was. It presents like an exaggerated version of game/PUA theory, and I don't think Kickstarter should have permitted it. Goodness knows they've removed other projects for being offensive that didn't actually go so far as to encourage readers to commit crimes.
I hate to sound like I'm on kmal2t's side, but it does matter quite a whole hell of a lot what the intent is.
Intent is the difference between a distasteful, satirical, National Lampoon-style coffee table book for adults to read as a guilty pleasure that nobody takes seriously, or an actual rotten thing that needs banning.
Your reply would seem to indicate that you have decided that whether or not it is a joke, it needs to be taken seriously. I would disagree. A lot of classic humor would be lost if we simply threw up our hands and decided the baby ought to go out with the bathwater. I am a big fan of the Ultimate Power Ninja Site, and I would never take it seriously, but sadly there are a few who have, and who take great offense from it, just as an example. Intent is EVERYTHING.
I have not yet been convinced that this was not all a joke to begin with, but to be honest, I don't care to find out. My point is simply that a lot of people here damning the thing didn't seem to care about finding out either, before they condemned it. If it wasn't a joke, then good for you, I suppose. You are probably all hypocrites (we all are) in one way or another, as far as damning this sort of thing goes. If it was a joke, well then, perhaps admitting that to yourself might be the first step in not destroying the Constitution.
Two people making out and a guy making a move to slide his hand to third is not going to be prosecuted as rape. At worst it would be attempted rape, which no DA is going to prosecute unless its statutory.
Not sure there even is a crime labeled "attempted rape," but knowing as I do the definition of rape in most jurisdictions (sorry I will not post it here, as some here may think I am creating pornography if I do), sliding a hand is not it. Not in the ballpark.
I believe that, depending on the age of the victim, there are various crimes that fit this. "Assault" is what this sort of thing falls under.
I like how he capitalized rapists. Clearly this is a group he respects enough to make a proper noun.I like how the best rebuttal you could come up with was the fact that I try & keep my grammar in these posts as accurate & professional as I can.Frankly, you're too silly to take seriously. The guy didn't come back...he tried again 2 minutes later as in during the makeout session he made another pass.
And last time a discussion about rape was had it led to a pretty fast locking. Lets see where this one goes.
So making out with a girl and getting turned down for sex repetitively is rape regardless of whether or not they have sex?
Yeah how could I be so stupid? Here I thought rape entailed having non-consensual sex with another person.
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Two people making out and a guy making a move to slide his hand to third is not going to be prosecuted as rape. At worst it would be attempted rape, which no DA is going to prosecute unless its statutory.Not sure there even is a crime labeled "attempted rape," but knowing as I do the definition of rape in most jurisdictions (sorry I will not post it here, as some here may think I am creating pornography if I do), sliding a hand is not it. Not in the ballpark.
I believe that, depending on the age of the victim, there are various crimes that fit this. "Assault" is what this sort of thing falls under.
Trying to go from Second to third base is rape?
kma12t what are you smoking? I want some.
*Also people like you make me question the legitimacy of all rape charges without medical evidence. If there wasn't the girls-who-cried rape at every little thing people who actually got raped would be able to see justice done. People like you make rape a crime people get away with.
I'm not a criminal attorney, but I'm pretty sure there is attempted rape in most places. If someone wants to show that I'm wrong feel free to. And I said at worst because its not likely to even get that far as I said let's see if you ever get that close to prosecuted.
You are wrong. You disgust me. You help actual rapist get away guilt free by calling every innocent act a form of rape. You devalue rape to the point of being trivial.
Pretty much what Jess said, with the caveat that in the instance referenced, the guy in question did not explicitly leave, he left for a while, came back & tried again
Allow me to elucidate this conundrum:
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue balls
No. In the hypothetical instance you and I were both referring to, which you quoted in your previous post, the man leaves without having sex with the woman. Between the first and second attempts to initiate coitus, they continued their make-out session.
You are lying.
You are a liar.
This is unpleasant. In my opinion, topics like this on the site devalue Paizo's generally excellent attempt at providing a community worth being a part of. Arguments about 'what is rape' deserve sensitive treatment - this is a public forum, not a couple of people sitting back in private casually throwing around hypotheticals.
I'll cross my fingers it gets locked soon.
Pretty much what Jess said, with the caveat that in the instance referenced, the guy in question did not explicitly leave, he left for a while, came back & tried againAllow me to elucidate this conundrum:
I'd love to see you try to get a case prosecuted where a guy was trying to steal third during a make-out session. If she said no once and he tried again 2 minutes later and then she said no and he left with blue ballsNo. In the hypothetical instance you and I were both referring to, which you quoted in your previous post, the man leaves without having sex with the woman. Between the first and second attempts to initiate coitus, they continued their make-out session.
You are lying.
You are a liar.
Really the person calling everything rape is a liar?
Who would think that the tendency to advocate false rape charges coincides with dishonestly?
This is unpleasant. Topics like this on an RPG site devalue Paizo's generally excellent attempt at providing a community worth being a part of. Arguments about 'what is rape' deserve sensitive treatment - this is a public forum, not a couple of people sitting back in private casually throwing around hypotheticals.
I'll cross my fingers it gets locked soon.
You and me both. My rage meter is filling at a dangerous pace.
Yes.
It doesn't surprise me you don't share my view. Nonetheless, I think it has already become insensitive and i hope the thread is locked asap.
I don't plan on adding anything to what I said above.
Edit: although I should say I have nothing against hypotheticals, as such. I was characterising two different forums and suggesting they have different standards as to what is reasonable.
Meatrace: You want to call me a liar, back it up, prove I lied, prove I'm a liar. Right now you're throwing names like the kids we used to be back in kindergarten.
Marthkus;...
I have not called everything rape. I have called out specific, specific, behavior techniques as coercive & useful only in undermining a person's ability to trust their own judgement or act effectively to protect themselves & then I have pointed out that those very techniques are what Rapists who have managed to avoid incarceration have used to do just that, avoid incarceration, while continuing their predatory behavior.
Telling a woman she is pretty or that you find her attractive, is not rape.
Becoming physically expressive of your attraction when the woman has indicated she is also interested in you, is not rape.
Continuing to press her when she has indicated that she is not interested, or escalating the contact when she has not expressly indicated that she is interested; are predatory behavior. Which is what I & others have been saying for the past several posts.
It shocks me that people think it's okay to continue to pressure someone even after they said no. If someone says no then that's it, no more trying
So if on our first date a girl turns down my proposition, I can never even suggest anything sexual with her again. Not in a week, or a month, or a year. If, at first blush, a woman is not attracted to you, you can't try to win her over with charm and wit?
This is what you're saying.
This is how absurd what you're saying is.
Meatrace: You want to call me a liar, back it up, prove I lied, prove I'm a liar. Right now you're throwing names like the kids we used to be back in kindergarten.
What's with this reading comprehension problem?
I DID prove that you lied.READ MY FREAKING POST.
You said something. It was not true. That is a lie. I quoted YOU and I quoted what we were BOTH REFERRING TO and I showed, step by step, how they didn't add up.
If your feeble mind can't comprehend that then you have no business using a computer.
What is it about this thread that makes peoples' reading comprehension abilities plummet?
+1
Sweet cuppin' cakes!| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Marthkus;...
I have not called everything rape. I have called out specific, specific, behavior techniques as coercive & useful only in undermining a person's ability to trust their own judgement or act effectively to protect themselves & then I have pointed out that those very techniques are what Rapists who have managed to avoid incarceration have used to do just that, avoid incarceration, while continuing their predatory behavior.
Yes, you specifically called out the behavior of getting up and leaving after a woman rebukes you as predatory behavior.
O those wily rapists, they'll do anything to get away with it, including not rape anyone in the goddamn first place!
Meatrace: You want to call me a liar, back it up, prove I lied, prove I'm a liar. Right now you're throwing names like the kids we used to be back in kindergarten.What's with this reading comprehension problem?
I DID prove that you lied.
READ MY FREAKING POST.
You said something. It was not true. That is a lie. I quoted YOU and I quoted what we were BOTH REFERRING TO and I showed, step by step, how they didn't add up.If your feeble mind can't comprehend that then you have no business using a computer.
At this point, you & I are both quoting either each other or what we think Ken Hoinsky said in his Reddit posts, not what he actually said, you want to prove I'm lying, link the actual post where he actually said he left her completely alone.
Yes, you specifically called out the behavior of getting up and leaving after a woman rebukes you as predatory behavior.
O those wily rapists, they'll do anything to get away with it, including not rape anyone in the g!%~!%n first place!
Re-read what I actually said, if you are going to go off about people having difficulty with reading comprehension Meatrace.
Successful (I.E.: ones who avoid prison time) Rapists are successful because they 'game' the system. They use tactics which mind-f$@% their victims just as much as they physically mistreat them.
Tactics such as testing the victim's boundaries & more importantly the victim's responses to tested boundaries.
Sure, the guy will 'back off' initially, once the victim has pushed back hard enough, but then they will come back again later & try it again
& again
& again...
If the intended victim finally gets wise & either leaves or makes as scene, the guy moves on to his next 'target'.
Now if you're interested in courting her that's different. This is a seduction guild we're talking about though, the goal is sex, and a woman that isn't interested in sex should not have to tell someone twice that she isn't interested.
I'm pretty sure the word I added in bold is what you meant Guy. If not, I apologize.
Right now, I'm going to bed & sleep because I have to work tomorrow. Meatrace, I recommend you do the same. We can take this up later if you still want to, when we have both had a chance to get some sleep & refresh. I know I'm tired.