Goblin Squad Member
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A Refresher on Attacks
We've mentioned most of this in other places, but it's worth repeating. Some of the core assumptions are:*Most of a player's actions in combat come from attack feats assigned to a weapon set. A player can have up to six feats on each weapon set (used by the number keys 1-6) and can swap between up to three weapon sets in combat. There is no auto-attack: timing and opportunity cost is a big factor of the system, so you have precise control over when you attack.
*Pressing an attack button begins an animation and consumes stamina; the time and cost are based on the weapon type and the specific attack. The attack may also require a specific range and consume ammunition.
*In addition to having varying amounts of damage, activation time, and cost, attacks differ based on what kinds of secondary effects they have. A power attack leaves the attacker briefly unguarded in exchange for more damage, while a wrathful swing leaves the target unguarded, but deals less damage than a similar attack with no effects.
*Attack feats do not have cooldowns. You can use them as often as you have the time, stamina, and other requirements (and this is another reason there is no auto attack). Some attacks intended to be used less often may be fatiguing—temporarily reducing your maximum stamina—or may apply other very detrimental effects on the attacker that you'll only want to risk if the situation is optimal. Most stuns, immobilizes, and other crowd control effects additionally give the target a temporary resistance to repeated applications.
*Stamina regenerates to full every six seconds, and it generally takes only four to five seconds of attacks to use up 100% of your stamina. Thus, a lot of the tactics of combat involves making optimal use of your available stamina, positioning, and attention to the changing situation.
How targeting works is escaping me, at the moment. As for friendly fire, I believe that at least AOE effects will include it. There is a HUGE thread arguing the merits of that...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The feel of combat is not just UI but opponent behaviour.
PvE mobs are likely to stand there and exchange blows, combat becomes a game of pressing the right buttons at the right time (timing is important and moves interact).
For PvP, the most interesting thing to me is the 'opportunity' system (based on pnp rules).there are attacks that specifically target people who move around in melee. Fighters will specialize in this, which may allow some sort of 'holding aggro' in pvp and may hopefully discourage circle strafing and other pvp-dances. (On the other hand, mobility will give increased dodge when moving).
I can't recall solid info on whether casting and archery will be harder/slower/impossible if moving, but I expect it.
The 'slow pace' (1-2 sec between attack animations), no 'default action' and incentives to make people stop and face their enemy should be enough to make combat feel more like a RTS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmmm. Will be interesting to test out I guess. I've always been a fan of turn based strategy which is obviously all strategy and no twitch but I hope there is some way for players to perform exceptionally whether it is twitch or strategy.
I guess my main fear would be if they slow down the pace too much without amping up the strategy levels, then we'll just be butting heads until the person with the lowest stats dies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to add that there were mentions that running around a lot in combat would provide your opponent with opportunities to use "attacks of opportunity" to hurt you badly. This system could perhaps get rid of som of the godawful circle-strafing bunny-jumping nonsense that most MMO systems encourage.
I don't know if this is still in the works but if they could pull it off it would make me very happy. While strafing adds an extra aspect of player skill I do not enjoy it since it shifts combat success in favour to those with good gaming rigs and twitch skills and also because it looks ridiculous in-game. Rather than combat being a button-mash, mouse hand contortionism fest I prefer a slower pace where tactics and timing wins the day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm hoping the feel of combat is, slow enough to be tactical but fast enough not be feel turn based.
I'm hoping that hitting has an actual quality measurement to it. I hope that hit location plays a role. I hope that we have some control of where are attacks are directed at.
Best example of what I hope for can be found in Age of Conan's melee combat. Just in case anyone might counter that it would be too demanding on development time or system requirements. It is already out there and a few years old.
I hope that combat has a death penalty sever enough, that players will avoid it, but not so sever that it sends players away from the game. Yes, that is a tough balance, but it has been struck several times in the past with other MMOs.
Even the immortals in EVE Online, fear death. No reason why the immortals in PFO shouldn't as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I hope that hit location plays a role. I hope that we have some control of where are attacks are directed at..
I fully concur: it should be a significant element of melee to determine that while you might not be able to penetrate your opponent's defenses enough for a killing blow still you might strike his forearm and weaken his ability to grip his weapon, and therefore reduce his parry. To cut his knee to reduce his mobility. To open his brow and reduce his vision.
In voicing this preference I also realize that it will complicate the combat routines greatly. Hopefully the six second pulse mechanic will provide enough time to make it a practical request.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems we're mostly singing from the same hymn sheet in our impression of what combat could best look and feel like?
I'm currently thinking it's real-time (tick) with a turn-base component ie the stamina 6 seconds (tick) and tab-target (tick) and AOO (tick) for melee and FF for AOE (tick) to make a difference between melee and ranged significant as well as the factor of managing relationships via friendly, neutral, enemey matrix of reputation, alignment, flags (tick) and who you just hit! The way the 3 weapon sets (tick) work with the stamina sorta makes me think of what I've had a peek at in the magic card system with a deck of idk 6 cards with varying parameters and energy burn and some work better against other combinations and so on with a huge potential deck to interact with - so the stamina thing seems it could gel together this tete a tete combat tactics we're all hoping to see finally in a mmorpg?! What a mouthful. Then how 1v1 might be rare and how parties interacting and then finally armies... (all guesses and no ticks!)
@Bludd to my mind, AoC is quite actiony such as animations that have more real physics in them (cannot actually remember now??) (there's a cool ks that had this actually) and hit locations via mouse or tabbing might be too micro. But I think certain attacks might lead to injuries that then act "as if" that target was """aimed""" for iykwim? I expect the animations are for visual representation (oc!) and also as stated for timing measurement. I'd be surprised if they are rag-doll physics quality of action-reaction to them. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I've read that bit wrong?
I know AOO is intended to reduce movement in melee, but as suggested by Jiminy that is another possible method as is a sort of melee "lock" put on you that then means if you can't shake it if you "turn your back" you're in a world of pain sort of thing? Again another consideration. Maybe that's what AOO already does.
I think GW is more or less on some interesting lines, especially differentiating melee and ranged more effectively. Would like "cover" which seems discussed in Nihimon's quote from Lee Hammock and even height for ranged too... not asking too much. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Progression in swordplay, as an example, could offer set skills that could be added to training packages available that could handle these. I could see a specific animation attached to each, where following the correct defense with a move you are already positioned (riposte) for would be more efficient than one you are not already positioned for (from opposition 6 reposte to the torso rather than recovering from a yielding 1 parry to thrust torso).
If each offense and defense is its own trainable package then they could already incorporate the finer details and thus avoid being excessively micro to the player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Conan had basically tab target combat but with a lot of extra stuff, I will describe the "extras" as I remember them for those who might be interested, since AoC combat was mentioned in the thread. The major addition to standard MMO combat was the combo system.
- Melee attacks were initiated by pressing a hotbar icon (as in WoW) but many of the button presses would start a "combo" that consisted of 1 or more (up to 4 i think) "builder" attacks before allowing a final "finisher" move. To be able to perform this you had 3 or 5 attack buttons (default 1,2,3,q,e in the asdf config) that represented "attack directions" (left,middle,right,lower left, lower right. Example: I initiate combo A from my hotbar. One attack is immediately performed. An on-screen indication tells me to next do a "left" attack, after I do that it tells me to do a "right" attack. After I do that I am told that a lower left attack will perform the "finisher", which consists of three strikes that combined do something like 75% of the entire combo.
- You were rooted while performing the (sometimes lengthy) finisher moves, but not during builder moves. If you had a target in range while starting the finisher but the target runs away during the finisher, the entire finisher series of strikes would hit as if you were still in range. Combo finishers could be interrupted through CC abilities.
- Every target has 3 "directional shields" that reduces incoming damage from either left, right or middle attacks representing how well each side is guarded. By default you had one shield in each direction and the back was unshielded. Thus, attacks from behind did slightly more damage. The shields could be moved around while in combat so that you for example guard your right side with three shields and thus reduce damage taken from that direction. Moving shields in combat was clunky and I don't know if anyone ever did that.
- Melee attacks could hit more than one target in front of you (cleaving), even though only one target was "targeted". Those target took less individual damage than if you had only hit one of them but the combined damage from both would be greater than if only one target had been hit.
- Casters worked pretty much the same way as in WoW: you'd select a spell from hotbar and start casting, could be interrupted/slowed if you were hit before the spell finishes casting. You were rooted while casting.
- As in WoW (as opposed to GW2 and how PFO plans to do things), you could have any number of spells and combos on your hotbars ready for use.
Most people I have talked to about it really liked the melee combat system and considered it a great improvement to standard tab-target MMO combat (WoW). Personally I liked the combo system since it made melee fighting more involving. The directional shields were fun for PvE since you would choose what combo to perform against an enemy based on their shield placements but as I said, I think very few people used them in PvP.
One big problem with the combo system was that since combos would take a long time to finish and some more than others it was really hard to balance them because of this. Their usefulness were not only related to the damage they caused or other extra effects but also the very varying length of the finisher and the number of builders since players had the chance of interrupting combos (CC abilities ruled).
The combo system also had a lot of bugs that were exploited (combo skipping (breaking your finisher during the instant after it had dealt damage but before the animation ended, thus giving halved cooldown time), different animation speed for male and female characters etc.). Some of those bugs remained for a very long time and proved difficult for Funcom (the developers) to fix.
Balance was still a big issue just a few months ago when I made a brief return to the game, to a large extent because of the combo system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't use the shield mechanic in AoC any longer than it took to figure it out. It was a wonderful idea but cumbersome in realization.
It would definitely be better to use a different system for your shield using the left hand and your right to choose attacks depending on how in-combat movement is controlled.
If it is too busy or two unintuitive it will probably be a waste of design and code. I want it but right now I don't understand enough about how movement will work in melee.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Conan had basically tab target combat but with a lot of extra stuff, I will describe the "extras" as I remember them for those who might be interested, since AoC combat was mentioned in the thread. The major addition to standard MMO combat was the combo system.
...
- Melee attacks were initiated by pressing a hotbar icon (as in WoW) but many of the button presses would start a "combo" that consisted of 1 or more (up to 4 i think) "builder" attacks before allowing a final "finisher" move. To be able to perform this you had 3 or 5 attack buttons (default 1,2,3,q,e in the asdf config) that represented "attack directions" (left,middle,right,lower left, lower right. Example: I initiate combo A from my hotbar. One attack is immediately performed. An on-screen indication tells me to next do a "left" attack, after I do that it tells me to do a "right" attack. After I do that I am told that a lower left attack will perform the "finisher", which consists of three strikes that combined do something like 75% of the entire combo.
- You were rooted while performing the (sometimes lengthy) finisher moves, but not during builder moves. If you had a target in range while starting the finisher but the target runs away during the finisher, the entire finisher series of strikes would hit as if you were still in range. Combo finishers could be interrupted through CC abilities.
- Every target has 3 "directional shields" that reduces incoming damage from either left, right or middle attacks representing how well each side is guarded. By default you had one shield in each direction and the back was unshielded. Thus, attacks from behind did slightly more damage. The shields could be moved around while in combat so that you for example guard your right side with three shields and thus reduce damage taken from that direction. Moving shields in combat was clunky and I don't know if anyone ever did that.
- Melee attacks could hit more than one target in front of you (cleaving), even though only one target
Age of Conan melee really was a pretty nice step forward. But I hope we don't have mash that many buttons this time. I think the button mashing is what prevented people from using the shields. Too much going on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Conan melee really was a pretty nice step forward.I absolutely agree. Very handsome combat model.
But I hope we don't have mash that many buttons this time. I think the button mashing is what prevented people from using the shields. Too much going on.
Since we know people will craft their own macros, yet many players will just stay baffled when they lose, my recommendation is to make the assembly of combat sequences part of the actual game.
Ryan has in the past indicated that if some advantage cannot be denied the few then it should be made accessible to all. I fully support that sentiment for the sake of a level playing field.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since we know people will craft their own macros, yet many players will just stay baffled when they lose, my recommendation is to make the assembly of combat sequences part of the actual game.
An alternative to this could be to pace combat so that a human being actually has a decent chance to keep up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An alternative to this could be to pace combat so that a human being actually has a decent chance to keep up.
I believe this is what the 6-second "turn" of Stamina Refresh is meant to accomplish.
At any rate, we'll have an opportunity to help them get it right this fall when Pit Fighter is released :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My favorite effect, in AoC combat, was actually the sound a certain demonologist's AoE attack (pillar of fire I think it was) would make coupled with the over-the-top visual of the column of flame. Later I am afraid they scaled it back, but back in the day it was awesome. I would cast it just to hear it.
The sound of the spell's effect relied very heavily on a good subwoofer.
It is my hope that PFO makes full, vibrant use of sound effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since we know people will craft their own macros, yet many players will just stay baffled when they lose, my recommendation is to make the assembly of combat sequences part of the actual game.An alternative to this could be to pace combat so that a human being actually has a decent chance to keep up.
That's where I'd like to see it, somewhere half way between the twitch and the thinking of turn based.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty happy with the feel of combat in Guild Wars 2. There's movement built into some of the combat maneuvers, but it doesn't seem to turn into a circle-strafing fest like some MMOs. The limited number of icons on screen at one time, and the fact that they change with your equipped weapon, is a lot like the descriptions we've been given of PFO combat. There are definitely problems (particularly due to the ability to stack 100 players in a 5 foot square and some very "porous" walls) but overall, I like the feel of GW2 combat.
I recently logged in to Everquest 2 for the first time in years, and I was immediately struck by how static and monotonous the combat system felt. I had dozens of icons on my screen, but most of them were just higher- and lower-level versions of the same spells. Combat was very much about standing toe-to-toe and taking punishment until the monster died, even for a druid with some root abilities. It was just a boring exercise in pushing a set sequence of buttons over and over.
Another game that I feel has something to offer PFO is Lord of the Rings Online. In particular, the Fellowship Maneuvers in LOTRO seem like a good template for bringing tabletop Pathfinder's Teamwork Feats into PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Combat was very much about standing toe-to-toe and taking punishment until the monster died...
I understand this point of view, and try to remain open-minded about it, but I found Age of Conan to be extremely gimmicky and I really don't want something that feels like it should be played on a Console.
In Vanguard (which has tons of problems, admittedly) combat is basically the same as WoW, EQ2, Rift, etc. However, the thing that keeps it from being stupid and boring is that there is a lot of information you have to take in to really be playing at the top of your game. I find myself constantly scanning across my monitor to the various UI elements, and also scanning my surroundings to be aware of potential adds.
I am very hopeful about the keyword system, and the way certain keywords are applied by some attacks and make other attacks more (or less) powerful. My hope is that there will be a lot of room for a variety of results even if two characters have the exact same abilities slotted, for example if one character is simply better at noticing when certain effects are active on their target and using their most effective attack more consistently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another game that I feel has something to offer PFO is Lord of the Rings Online. In particular, the Fellowship Maneuvers...
First, I have always found LOTRO combat to just feel wrong in a way that I couldn't put my finger on.
However, I completely agree about Fellowship Maneuvers. As I said above, I have high hopes for the keyword system. I hope that being able to recognize and take advantage of effects applied by our allies has enough of an impact to be worth the time and effort it takes to remain that vigilant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty happy with the feel of combat in Guild Wars 2. There's movement built into some of the combat maneuvers, but it doesn't seem to turn into a circle-strafing fest like some MMOs.
I agree GW2 is pretty close to the ideal amount of "twitch" you would want. Also like the limited button mashing. Add a tad more strategy to it and some Pathfinder-esque flavor to the movements and that's what i want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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RE: Circle strafe
I think if you want the combat to feel correctly "Pathfinder", then the circle strafe should be a risky move that can pay off. Flanking should be important but attacks of opportunity should be created. In the TT you get one AoO per round. So if I circle strafe you, you should get one AoO per 6 second refresh. Feats can increase the amount of AoO per refresh.
Jumping can be dealt with similarly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never tried Age of Conan, so I can't comment on the amount of twitch in its combat system. I didn't have a problem with LOTRO combat when I played it, but I suspect that it would feel slow compared to GW2 combat.
I think LOTRO's soldier system also has a lot to offer in terms of Leadership in PFO. You can choose what skills your soldier trains, but you don't tell them when to activate each skill in combat. Another game with something to add to that system might be Diablo 2, in which the companions could wield many of the same weapons that PCs used, but other items were more abstract.
I agree with giving PFO maneuvers more Pathfinder feel than some of the GW2 maneuvers. I also like the distinction in GW2 between Down and Dead. A character who is Downed can still use a few options to try to survive long enough to get back up. Tabletop Pathfinder characters also have limited options when they're below 0 hit points, but not quite dead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also like the distinction in GW2 between Down and Dead. A character who is Downed can still use a few options to try to survive long enough to get back up. Tabletop Pathfinder characters also have limited options when they're below 0 hit points, but not quite dead.
GW2 ripped that off of D&D/PF rules and I expect it to be almost identical in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty happy with the feel of combat in Guild Wars 2.
I thought Guild Wars 1 combat put it to shame but I mainly think that was my distaste for the weapons and abilities.
I hated how choosing your weapons gave you your first 5 abilities rather than choosing each one seperately (as those are your most commonly used abilities) and I hated how all your other abilities had super long cooldowns and for the most part lacked the flavor of GW1 abilities.
I felt far less control over my abilities and in general it felt very spammy as I had almost no selection in the way of low cooldown/resouce cost abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand it will work different. But we are going to be using the ability slot system. I hope that we get a lot of options in the way of abilities.
Having half my build chosen for me because I use a certain type of weapon stinks. Especially when it gives me a lot of long cooldown abilities. I like to load my builds with fast cooldown abilities so I can use what I need, when I need it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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. . . But not Pathfinder Online. Characters aren't created; they're grown.
GW1 was like that also. For a huge chunk of your attacks, you had to go out and defeat a specific NPC or complete a specific quest to earn a new attack which only worked if you had a specific weapon and a certain level of skill in a number of areas.
I preferred the GW1 combat configuration/setup, but preferred the combat itself in GW2. Like Eldurian, in GW I didn't like the way a sword in my main hand and dagger in my off gave me five specific abilities for the rest of time. I prefer to get new attacks/skills over time and test them out and find what they couple with best, both with my own character and also with others in my group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wasn't GW1 SUPER complicated because you simply had way too many options to choose from? I don't want to have to manage 150 different choices of abilities to use.
The other reason for the 150+ options, was that there were separate ones for PvE and others for PvP. PFO will not have that issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thinking of the lack of auto-attack (which I understand may be the probable PFO position), will there be some sort of default auto-defence instead?
I'm thinking of games where, if you have no auto attack enabled and your (real-life) attention is diverted, a monster can run up to you and start biting lumps out of you while you just stand there like a lemon.
If the character was pre-programmed to go into a defensive stance if attacked, unless the player was actively selecting attack options, it would not only partially compensate for momentary human inattention/confusion but would add a certain level of 'realism' to your poor put-upon character.
@Sadurian
There is indeed an autodefense...its called don't go afk without logging off. It takes all of 5 seconds to select logoff when getting up from the pc there really is no excuse not to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some of us have real lives. The computer game doesn't always come first when real life intrudes. Five seconds is a long time when your child screams or the dinner starts to boil over.
Are you also supposed to log off to check your inventory, the map or your whatever? I've been attacked when trying to make inventory space for the loot I've picked up from my latest victory. You cannot do that logged off, but can't always see the monster attacking you either, because your attention is on the inventory screen.
I am a parent myself, sorry it is easy totally easy to hit logoff as you stand up in anything short of an emergency. If it is an emergency then frankly the last thing you should be worried about is someone may kill you. In addition 5 seconds is an exaggeration of the time it takes in most games it is a simple as hit the esc key, click logoff. Even the most uncoordinated can probably do that in under 2 seconds. I have a real life is a poor excuse.
As to the others are you really telling me you can't tell you are being attacked while checking your inventory or map?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ZenPagan
Yes, I can tell if I'm being attacked. My character makes a cry of pain or as it is wounded, at which point I close the inventory screen to see my avatar standing idly as it is attacked.
I have also been attacked in mass melee where there are so many avatars, labels and special effects swirling about that I have no idea who is where or where the enemy is. I try to get my bearings and suddenly find I'm the target of the monster, again I am being damaged without my avatar reacting.
I've also been damaged when an off-screen archer or other missile-user targets me. I'm running along and then realise that my HP are going down without knowing why.
And yes, heretical though it may seem to you, I've turned away from the computer for a few seconds to accept a cup of coffee, talk to my wife, or perform some other real-life task which takes priority over a computer game. I don't feel the need to log off and back in again each time I look away from the screen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sadurian: Your team-mates will protect you. ;) I'm no fan of auto this and that being built into the game, think the faq explained it well.
I'm not wanting everything to be automated. Auto-attack, for example, is not my favourite feature because I end up fighting a lot of things I had no intentions of tangling with, all because I right-clicked to see their information....
I'm just trying to add a little AI to the character avatar. If attacked, most people would try to protect themselves. Of course, we don't want our avatars running away from encounters without player control (although maybe when hit by a Fear spell?), but a default defensive stance to partially reduce incoming damage until their controlling player gets their act together and decides which attack to use might be nice.
@Sadurian
I specifically said when you went AFK, accepting a coffee, talking to someone while at the keyboard is not the same thing. You notice and can react.
However I do all those things as well, chat to someone while playing look at inventory etc, accept a coffee off someone yet I don't feel the need for the game to react for me. When you are attacked unexpectedly in real life there is the moments of surprise before you start reacting. The same applies in game.
Frankly I really can't see a monster getting a couple of seconds damage in while you get your bearings as PC threatening. If you are finding it so you must be taking more than a couple of seconds getting back
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sadurian
I specifically said when you went AFK, accepting a coffee, talking to someone while at the keyboard is not the same thing. You notice and can react.
If you read my initial post it mentions being attacked whilst the player is momentarily distracted. I was not suggesting leaving the character standing around while I went shopping.
I said it would be nice to have a default defensive stance for a few seconds, reducing some of the incoming damage, if attacked but when the player hasn't yet reacted. I am not suggesting being able to leave a character stood safely in the middle of battlefield overnight.