Power gamer = protected species?

[Conundrum]

Has anyone gotten the feeling it's ok to call out grognards for being old grognards but young power gamer being idiots are an untouchable subject? I don't know , just here to vent. These boards seem one sided with devs clearly defending power gamers... is this due to profits? Power gamers spend more so they get more freedom to be rude and not have folks answer in kind? Feels like fascism on the board's sometimes with the post removal too it's like" removed post for being uh..subversive..uh I mean let's not criticize powergamers."

[Manimal]

Those arw some pretty strong accusations. What's your evidence?

[Orthos]

Welp, here's a thread that's doomed to go down in flames.

[havoc xiii]

Conundrum wrote:

Has anyone gotten the feeling it's ok to call out grognards for being old grognards but young power gamer being idiots are an untouchable subject? I don't know , just here to vent. These boards seem one sided with devs clearly defending power gamers... is this due to profits? Power gamers spend more so they get more freedom to be rude and not have folks answer in kind? Feels like fascism on the board's sometimes with the post removal too it's like" removed post for being uh..subversive..uh I mean let's not criticize powergamers."

Using the term idiot...

The most important rule: Don't be a jerk

Maybe that's why?

[Cylyria]

Everytime I see a thread like this I ask myself why someone cares how someone prefers to play the game? Play it as you want to play. It isn't really that hard.

[Terquem]

But what, exactly, is a Power Gamer anyway?
As a DM (sorry, GM) I want to create the most interesting, most enjoyable, most “real-feeling”, most character threatening game I can, all the while making sure that no single element described above becomes so powerful that it takes away from the fun the players or I expect, and I do expect it to be fun.
So here comes player “A”, and player A wants to create a character that is the most capable, most proficient, most survivable, and most interesting that she can imagine, while player “B” doesn’t see a need to put as much effort into it as player A, she still thinks her character is awesomesauce, regardless.
Now the game starts. Player A is easy going, relaxed, role-plays just enough to keep the game interesting, and helps the party reach their goals every time, while player B keeps stepping on other player’s, interrupting with corrections about what other characters are “supposed” to be doing, ignores the relationship between “character knowledge” and “player knowledge” and drives the game to a standstill with arguments over what “could really” happen and what the GM described as happening.
Who is the power gamer?
Because in the end, what we get put off about is what it means to have “power” or abuse “power”. What it means is; do the players feel like they are contributing to the experience, does the GM demand obedience, is there a player who must be the center of attention, is the game fun?
It’s not about what is or is not right or wrong about how a player plays the game.
It is about what it means, fundamentally, to play.
We all want to play.
Play is supposed to be fun, and how we play and how we have fun requires more than just demanding that things be done our way. Having fun, playing, with other people requires compromise.
Power gaming isn’t the problem.
Being a person who doesn’t understand how to get along nicely with others is the problem.

[Lamontius]

if only the create thread button was tied to the search function

[Snorter]

Trouble is, powergamer is a very subjective term.
People come to RPGs via a wide variety of paths, and those paths provide differing expectations, from being exposed to different source material.

Someone who was drawn to gaming, because they wanted to live vicariously as a dragon-rider, or a magical elf-girl raised by unicorns, is going to question why their 8th level PCs are still slopping round in a sewer. Telling them "It was good enough for Fafhrd and The Mouser" isn't going to impress them.
If they prefer a focus on high epic fantasy, then they are going to expect their PCs to be capable of larger-than-life effects, earlier in their career, than if they were expecting to be portraying the (anti-)heroes of sword and sorcery.

Are they 'wrong' to have those expectations?
What if the rest of the group, including the GM, share those same expectations?
Even if the group is split between those who believe 'PCs are prophesied emergent demigods', and those who believe 'PCs are yokels who just fell off the turnip cart'; is either side actually 'wrong'?

Or should they recognise that others want different things from the game, take turns running different RPG rules or campaigns, or agree to disagree, and help each other find groups that cater better to each others preferences?

[Snorter]

There are some people out there, the majority can agree, whose PCs are simply illegal, under the Rules As Written (and these differences from RAW aren't covered by their GM's house rules, either).
This isn't powergaming, though.

If you knowingly tell your GM that your spell has 'close' range, when it's 'touch', or cast it on another when it's 'personal'...
If you pretend that your ability is a swift action, when it's really a standard...
If you take advantage of your GM's mistake, or lack of knowledge, to gain a ruling in your favour, when you know you didn't deserve it...
If you've built your PC with 25 point buy, when you were asked to use 20...

.......then that's cheating.

That's got nothing to do with 'differing expectations from being exposed to different source material', or 'preferring a focus on high epic fantasy than sword and sorcery', or any of the other, reasonable explanations for wanting to play stronger PCs.
If you get chewed out for any of the above, it's because you've been caught out being a cheating dick.

And being a cheat is competely divorced from whatever power settings the GM has set for the campaign. You can be a cheat in a game where everything's turned up to 11, or you can cheat using a 5 point buy Commoner.

[Snorter]

Conundrum wrote:

Has anyone gotten the feeling....young power gamer being idiots are an untouchable subject?

These boards seem one sided with devs clearly defending power gamers...

And being an idiot is competely divorced from whatever power settings the GM has set for the campaign. You can be an idiot in a game where everything's turned up to 11, or you can be an idiot using a 5 point buy Commoner.

I'd have thought players are more likely to act the goat with a weak PC they're bored with, than with one who ticks all their vicarious boxes.

If you're old enough to bristle at the references to 'grognards', then you're also old enough to remember when players had to roll all their stats on 3d6, in order.
And you'll also remember the hundreds of times, someone in the group would be saddled with a set of stats they didn't like, and would immediately declare they were kicking the town executioner in the nads, as their first action?

[thejeff]

Can we call out old grognards for being power gamers?

It's not like the two are mutually exclusive.

[imimrtl]

...and one more thing...get off my lawn, ya dern powergamers! ;-)

[Conundrum]

The amount of venom I'm reading even in this remote corner tells me that powergaming is not only dominant but many are in denial about the symptoms. I don't consider myself a grognard , not quite old enough but my first play experiences with dnd when I was a lad of 7 in 1987 were dm'd by a budding true first generation grognard. So while I remember 3d6 in order it wasn't a primary method in my gaming career. I feel tragically caught between younger and older generation gamers, power gamers and grognards although the former more often piss me off .

[Manimal]

Conundrum wrote:

The amount of venom I'm reading even in this remote corner tells me that powergaming is not only dominant but many are in denial about the symptoms. I don't consider myself a grognard , not quite old enough but my first play experiences with dnd when I was a lad of 7 in 1987 were dm'd by a budding true first generation grognard. So while I remember 3d6 in order it wasn't a primary method in my gaming career. I feel tragically caught between younger and older generation gamers, power gamers and grognards although the former more often piss me off .

So all players older than "your" generation are grognards, and all players younger are powergamers? Again, you gotta back these claims up, are all you'll get is people telling you to quit being an overgeneralizing jerk.

[Evil Lincoln]

I think it is weird to think that the moderators are "defending power gamers".

I rather think they are keeping all of the posters from singling out other posters as "bad players" based on their style of play.

And that's good. Let's keep it that way.

[kmal2t]

This thread wasn't specifically about powergamers as much as how powergamers are treated. Issues with the modding go beyond "powergaming vs. grognard", but I won't expand on this as "JP" will smite my post before it even cools to lukewarm. Btw, I give this thread 50 posts (if it gets that far) before a link to the Stormwind Fallacy is used.

And some people like epic fantasy that they're smiting dragons by 8th level. They want to play a super badass. Some people want easy challenges to make them feel special and can't handle losing. Some people just want to play a glorified wargame and only care about rolling dice, getting loot, and focusing on the tactics of combat. These people exist in all games but some games more than others ( I made a thread awhile ago arguing this point). Do I think these things are what the spirit of RPGing is about? No. But I also can't tell people that they can't play Naked Monopoly or S&M Sorry as well. My only hope is that this type of play doesn't spread so bad as to infect the tables I will play at over my gaming career.

All you can do is try to keep making a strong argument for the "Grognard" way of playing and hope you're persuasive enough to help stop the spread of munchkinland.

[Conundrum]

Not sure I have to "back up" my opinions manimal, either someone can relate or they can't it's a venting/discussion thread and not a legal proceeding.

[Hama]

You don't have to back up your opinions. You, however, have to back up claims that moderators and the forum in general are pro 'powergamer'. Because, without proof, your claims are immaterial and you simply come off as a jerk.

[Conundrum]

Idk, there was an ugly competitive narrowly focused mind set I observed in WoW for the short couple months I played and it seems To be insidiously permeating tabetop rpgs.. such as dnd/pf. I like playing characters that are Slightly high powered...by an adventure path Designers expectations.

[thejeff]

Conundrum wrote:

Not sure I have to "back up" my opinions manimal, either someone can relate or they can't it's a venting/discussion thread and not a legal proceeding.

You don't have to back them up, but if you don't, don't get upset if people don't take them seriously.

[Conundrum]

So in other words I'm a moderate power level guy who likes to allow all 21 classes and play/ run games from 1-18 or even 20th. Just like to stay within the printed paizo rules and keep the point buy down to 20, and cautious about races. This "moderate" attitude doesn't fit well in a land of extreme grognardia and powergaming with ppl alternately accusing me of both!

[Hama]

I don't see that anywhere. Maybe if you actually read what people are saying you, and then formulated a coherent response, we might start taking you seriously.

[Conundrum]

Did I specifically say here? If you check my post count its currently in the 900s so over the course of that...or were you only selectively reading my posts Hama?

[Rynjin]

Hi.

I'll be going now.

[MrSin]

Conundrum wrote:

The amount of venom I'm reading even in this remote corner tells me that powergaming is not only dominant but many are in denial about the symptoms.

Really? Everyone else is just in denial? Its "venom" that they're responding with?

[Hama]

Conundrum wrote:

Did I specifically say here? If you check my post count its currently in the 900s so over the course of that...or were you only selectively reading my posts Hama?

Honestly, i think this is the first time i see your posts since i started posting in this forum about 3 years ago. And, you should have specified.

Also, my post count is currently in the 2400s so what?

[Conundrum]

Rynjin, you should have waited just a moment longer...ok. so the entire forum is overrun with people that either condone power gaming or consider themselves court justices with the power to generalize by saying generalizing is always badwrong? This is a about opinion and venting based on my collective observations over time. I'm not offering specifics and why should I? If you don't agree because I'm generalizing find a better thread that doesn't? If you're offering hostility because you're a power gamer secretly or otherwise, that enforces that power gaming is indeed spreading.

[kmal2t]

Maybe it's just me, but every post I've seen you make comes across as incoherent rambling.

[Conundrum]

Conundrum wrote:

Idk, there was an ugly competitive narrowly focused mind set I observed in WoW

Hama, are you a world of warcraft veteran?

[Conundrum]

Auto spelling ruins me. Your name comes off as incoherent rambling too though so what is your excuse?

[Are]

You are essentially accusing the developers and the moderators of being unfairly biased in favor of one group of players, but you haven't posted any quotes or given other examples for why you feel that is the case. How do you expect any discussion to occur when you provide no "meat", so to speak?

Asking for such examples aren't a sign of people being on one side of the discussion or another, since there isn't anything to discuss yet. Rather, it's a sign of people wanting to know what they're supposed to be discussing.

***

Anyway, to answer your question: No, I haven't gotten that feeling. I'd say there's about the same amount of "grognard-favor", "power-gamer-favor", and "other-player-type-favor" both on the forums in general and by the developers/moderators.

[Conundrum]

Hey that's fine at least you can say something without turning it into a battle. I respect that. Admittedly not savvy enough to link anything so that's out but I can continue to be a punching bag...a role I am accustomed to!

[kmal2t]

First off, one word can't constitute rambling. Second the L and 2 together make an R : KMAl2T, why is my handle kmart? This is a strange nickname I got almost 15 years ago and I've used it since for an internet alias.

See, I provided a reasonable, coherent response.

[Hama]

Conundrum wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

Idk, there was an ugly competitive narrowly focused mind set I observed in WoW

Hama, are you a world of warcraft veteran?

No, i despize wow and the mentality of the large part of it's players.

kmal2t wrote:

Second the L and 2 together make an R : KMAl2T, why is my handle kmart?

Jesus, and I've been calling you Kaymalt in my head for quite a while.

[Conundrum]

kmal2t wrote:

First off, one word can't constitute rambling. Second the L and 2 together make an R : KMAl2T, why is my handle kmart? This is a strange nickname I got almost 15 years ago and I've used it since for an internet alias.

See, I provided a reasonable, coherent response.

yours is in another thread up in general discussion.

[Drejk]

Hama wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

Idk, there was an ugly competitive narrowly focused mind set I observed in WoW

Hama, are you a world of warcraft veteran?

No, i despize wow and the mentality of the large part of it's players.

kmal2t wrote:

Second the L and 2 together make an R : KMAl2T, why is my handle kmart?

Jesus, and I've been calling you Kaymalt in my head for quite a while.

Me something like that as well.

Except no Jesus was involved.

[Hama]

For some reason i remembered this awesomeness

[kmal2t]

Conundrum wrote:

kmal2t wrote:

First off, one word can't constitute rambling. Second the L and 2 together make an R : KMAl2T, why is my handle kmart? This is a strange nickname I got almost 15 years ago and I've used it since for an internet alias.

See, I provided a reasonable, coherent response.

yours is in another thread up in general discussion.

...huh?

[Conundrum]

Your reasonable response from me in general discussion"only you can prevent forest fires" thread :)

[kmal2t]

edit: for anyone wondering..since this guy still can't figure out how to make links after what did he say? 900 posts? Here it is

edit2: Since his post will likely get modded here is his reply to me saying "Cool story, bro".

Quote:

You my friend may need to see a proctologist, as it seems increasingly apparent based on your various responses I've read while checking your history(we have a bit on here of late) that you may have a large object lodged in such a place as may require surgical removal. Hope that was coherent enough of a response for you but in any case "ta ta".

The irony is you make a comment about a proctologist, and yet you are the one that is perpetually butthurt.

You make a long incoherent rant here and then whine that no one is taking you cereal, you make a pointless thread there complaining about how the forums are set up. It seems you are the one in dire need of a proctologist.

Then everyone will be super stoked on you take you totally cereal.

[Conundrum]

Do I detect nerdrage?

[kmal2t]

lol what a bad attempt at trolling.

[Conundrum]

Sorry, I take it your class is full? Or am I supposed to take it lying down?

[Manimal]

Conundrum, Are said it best upthread: you are claiming that there is bias from the moderators in favor of "powergamers." I am not saying you are wrong, nor am I agreeing that you are right. I am not saying you are a powergamer, or a grognard, nor am I claiming to be either. All I request is this:
If you accuse someone of an action you find distasteful, you should bring evidence. Otherwise, it is no different than whining. Your interpretation of those actions you are 100% entitled to; they are your opinions. But actual claims of actual occurrences need actual evidence. This is not limited to legal proceedings—this is a fact of life.
Now if you were making a rather unimportant claim, the criteria for proof would be different; for example, if you said you were wearing a red shirt, I would simply believe you.
But your claims in this thread are potentially hurtful, and thus you should provide evidence, because the validity of those claims are important.

[Conundrum]

@ manimal ,I like your argument. Wish I could tell you this had been intended to be more than "hey if you can relate or agree come chat" as I wasn't looking to battle, more the fool am I.

[Manimal]

Conundrum wrote:

@ manimal ,I like your argument. Wish I could tell you this had been intended to be more than "hey if you can relate or agree come chat" as I wasn't looking to battle, more the fool am I.

And that is a perfectly fine, non-jerk thing to do. Just lay off the accusations, or qualify them up front by either stating that you have no evidence, don't care about evidence, or are wishing for someone to provide evidence.

As for my own opinion, though I may not have a whole lot of posts under my belt, I've been lurking these boards for 2 years or so, and I can't say that I've seen what you've seen. Could it be that people who rail against "powergamers" are just shut down quicker because they use more invective?

[kmal2t]

Conundrum wrote:

Sorry, I take it your class is full? Or am I supposed to take it lying down?

Wow...you were being serious. Lol ok. I'm starting to think you're immune to irony.

[Conundrum]

Whatever. You seem not to be able to rise above it so label me if you will but be aware you may be tarred with the same brush anyway.

[Hama]

Dude, seriously, i just read through your posts in this thread. Most of them made absolutely no sense. Can you try and be coherent please?

[Conundrum]

Look Hama, I see what you are doing and it's kind of petty. Why not let one person fight their own battles. I really don't care if mart's your bosom buddy, coming in to flank me for him is getting old.