Chill Touch confusion

[Diminutive Titan]

Hello all,

Even though I have read a thread about the same spell on this very forum, I am still confused about the exact working of this spell.

The spell says:

Range - touch
Targets - creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration - instantaneous

"A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."

In my opinion, that means my 3rd level sorcerer(aberrant bloodline) could:
Cast the spell, then walk up to 3 orcs (each within 10ft., within the range of the Long Limbs bloodline power), then affect each of them with a seperate melee touch attack, in the same round.

It would actually seem quite balanced to me, given the effects of the spell, and given the fact that you need to hit 3 seperate times to accomplish the full potential of the spell.
It would also correspond with the rules that say that you cannot 'hold the charge of a touch spell that targets multiple creatures'

However I have read that many people disagree with this because a 3rd level sorcerer could never have 3 touch attacks in one round due to his BAB at that point. Instead, the sorcerer could make only as many attacks as his BAB would allow him to.

That doesn't make much sense to me, because that would mean the following:

A 12th level sorcerer, could basically make 12 touch attacks with this spell by the rules of the spell. However, his BAB would only allow him two attacks per round.
Since you cannot hold the charge of a spell that targets multiple creatures, that means that any sorcerer at any level could never make more than two attacks with this spell, unless he had otherwise gained extra attacks from multiclassing...

Wouldn't that make this spell, horribly underpowered and just plain globally useless? I can hardly imagine that this spell was actually designed specifically for a sorcerer1/monk20 character...

I haven't been able to find any official clarification on this spell, so can anyone else help me out?

Thanks in advance

[SlimGauge]

When you cast chill touch, you get ONE touch attempt in the same round that you cast it, just like any other touch spell.

You get additional touch attempts on a number of subsequent rounds, based on your caster level.

[Diminutive Titan]

Oops, I posted this in the wrong section, my apologies!

[Diminutive Titan]

SlimGauge wrote:

When you cast chill touch, you get ONE touch attempt in the same round that you cast it, just like any other touch spell.

You get additional touch attempts on a number of subsequent rounds, based on your caster level.

In that case, does casting a different spell in these subsequent rounds end the Chill Touch spell? Or could I for example still do 2 more chill touch attacks after I've cast another spell?

[SlimGauge]

It acts like any other touch spell that hasn't been completely discharged. When you have a held charge, you can't cast another spell without completely discharging the one you already have.

[Diminutive Titan]

Alright, I see how it works now, thanks for the clarification!

[Kazaan]

The line about not holding the charge on multi-touch spells is referring to touching allies with a spell like Teleportation. You can't cast Teleportation and hold the charge until all 6 people gather around you. But for offensive touch spells, you only get a single free touch when you cast it so, in order for it to work properly, the held charges must persist until they've all been expended in subsequent rounds, either through standard melee touch attacks (one per round) or by making unarmed strikes or natural attacks as part of a full-attack.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

SlimGauge wrote:

It acts like any other touch spell that hasn't been completely discharged. When you have a held charge, you can't cast another spell without completely discharging the one you already have.

Not quite, Chill touch is a touch spell but thee are no charges to hold. It simply states you get x number of touch attacks (x equals your level).

There are no charges to hold so you don't fall under the "holding a charge" rule so you CAN cast other spells while this one is going on.

The wording of this spell has been discussed quite a few times and that's the current understanding of how this specific spell works.

[Kazaan]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

SlimGauge wrote:

It acts like any other touch spell that hasn't been completely discharged. When you have a held charge, you can't cast another spell without completely discharging the one you already have.

Not quite, Chill touch is a touch spell but thee are no charges to hold. It simply states you get x number of touch attacks (x equals your level).

There are no charges to hold so you don't fall under the "holding a charge" rule so you CAN cast other spells while this one is going on.

The wording of this spell has been discussed quite a few times and that's the current understanding of how this specific spell works.

No, that's JJ's personal opinion on the matter; an opinion that isn't backed up by RAW anywhere. Chill Touch is an offensive touch spell so "holding the charge" rules automatically apply, regardless of how many charges it gives. It's just a charge that can be delivered multiple times before it's completely consumed.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Kazaan wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

SlimGauge wrote:

It acts like any other touch spell that hasn't been completely discharged. When you have a held charge, you can't cast another spell without completely discharging the one you already have.

Not quite, Chill touch is a touch spell but thee are no charges to hold. It simply states you get x number of touch attacks (x equals your level).

There are no charges to hold so you don't fall under the "holding a charge" rule so you CAN cast other spells while this one is going on.

The wording of this spell has been discussed quite a few times and that's the current understanding of how this specific spell works.

No, that's JJ's personal opinion on the matter; an opinion that isn't backed up by RAW anywhere. Chill Touch is an offensive touch spell so "holding the charge" rules automatically apply, regardless of how many charges it gives. It's just a charge that can be delivered multiple times before it's completely consumed.

And for normal touch spells that is how they work. However chill touch is unique among all the touch spells because it states "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."

With that sentence it changes it so you are no longer using the holding the charge rules. The spell itself specifically grants you a multiple touch ability and per the Holding the charge rules here:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell;.
Since the holding the charge rules states don't use these rules with any spell that affects multiple targets and chill touch at 2+ level effects multiple charges then you're argument is incorrect.

Chill touch, by Raw, is not discharged when you cast another spell.
Funny thing is the Frostbite spell has the same language.

[Kazaan]

Chill Touch doesn't let you touch multiple targets "as part of the spell". That's spells like Teleport which allow you to touch up to 6 willing allies as part of the casting (ie. you can't cast and then take a 5' step before touching). Offensive touch spells, however, give you a free-action touch attack which is executed separately from the spell (you can take a 5' step between casting and delivery) and, since you can only affect one enemy with this, in order for the spell to make sense in giving you multiple touches, it must be a charge that can be delivered multiple times before it is fully consumed. Hence, it still obeys the normal offensive "holding the charge" rules.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Kazaan wrote:

Chill Touch doesn't let you touch multiple targets "as part of the spell". That's spells like Teleport which allow you to touch up to 6 willing allies as part of the casting (ie. you can't cast and then take a 5' step before touching). Offensive touch spells, however, give you a free-action touch attack which is executed separately from the spell (you can take a 5' step between casting and delivery) and, since you can only affect one enemy with this, in order for the spell to make sense in giving you multiple touches, it must be a charge that can be delivered multiple times before it is fully consumed. Hence, it still obeys the normal offensive "holding the charge" rules.

Well first your statements "(ie. you can't cast and then take a 5' step before touching)" or that offensive steps only let you take a 5' step is incorrect. As quoted here from the Core Rulebook pg, 185;

Quote:

You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Second, the question at hand is not how touch attack spells work it's about how Chill Touch works. This spell specifically states you get to make x number of attacks that use the touch attack mechanic, period. The specific rule of this spell overrides the general rule of touch spells.

THAT is why there has been so much confusion regarding Chill Touch and why several devs have stated the writing on it is unclear. The intent may be that it works a different way but RAW is it works as we have described.

[Kazaan]

Where, pray tell, did you see a phrase in what I wrote that said you can "only" take a 5' step in casting an offensive spell? I used 5' step as an example because it's the smallest, fastest example of movement. If the spell doesn't even allow that, it can be reasonably inferred that there is no space at all between the casting and the touching. Teleport, for example, requires you to already be in physical contact when you cast the spell because touching to transfer the effect is required as part of casting.

Next, the question at hand is how Chill Touch works and Chill Touch is a Touch spell; hence discussing how Touch spells and Touch attacks work is entirely pertinent to the discussion at hand. In fact, it's rather silly to try claiming that discussing touch spells in general isn't relevant to discussing a particular touch spell. And by "silly", I mean wrong and useless to the discussion at hand.

Now, that having been said, you are correct in one regard; the specific rule of Chill Touch and Frostbite overrides the general rule of touch spells. Specific trumps general. You're wrong, however, about which general rule is being trumped. They trump the rule that a touch spell is expended when the touch succeeds; in the case of Frostbite and Chill touch, they are not expended until all charges of the touch succeed. Beyond that, they are still subject to all other limitations of touch spells and held charges, including, but not limited to, the dispelling of the charge(s) when another spell is cast.