Is water considered difficult terrain, thereby negating one's ability to take a 5-foot step in it? If so, does that also apply to aquatic creatures/creatures with a Swim speed?
Can aquatic creatures/creatures with Swim speeds charge through water?
I use the rules for bogs when referring to water shallow enough to walk through.
From the PRD:
Bogs: If a square is part of a shallow bog, it has deep mud or standing water of about 1 foot in depth. It costs 2 squares of movement to move into a square with a shallow bog, and the DC of Acrobatics checks in such a square increases by 2.
A square that is part of a deep bog has roughly 4 feet of standing water. It costs Medium or larger creatures 4 squares of movement to move into a square with a deep bog, or characters can swim if they wish. Small or smaller creatures must swim to move through a deep bog. Tumbling is impossible in a deep bog.
The water in a deep bog provides cover for Medium or larger creatures. Smaller creatures gain improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves). Medium or larger creatures can crouch as a move action to gain this improved cover. Creatures with this improved cover take a –10 penalty on attacks against creatures that aren't underwater.
Both shallow and deep bogs increase the DC of Stealth checks by 2.
Thanks, Peachbottom; that's useful information for some situations I'm envisioning.
But what about characters and/or creatures that are completely submersed in water (i.e., swimming or floating underwater)?
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.This indicates that you can take a 5-foot step with a form of movement for which you have a listed speed. I.e. if you have a swim speed (whether naturally or through a spell like touch of the sea or slipstream), you can take a 5-foot step in water.
Yes, but is water itself considered difficult terrain, thereby prohibiting a 5' step even if one has a Swim speed?
Is it considered an obstacle, thereby prohibiting charges?
There is a whole different set of rules for underwater movement and combat. But short answer is if you have a Swim speed (or if you have freedom of movement), yes you can take a 5-foot step and can charge in a straight line. If you do not have a Swim speed (or freedom of movement), you can't.
If you can walk in the water, it is considered difficult terrain and prevents 5 foot steps and charging. Some spells such as freedom of movement or feather steps can work around this.
If the water is too deep to walk in, you have to swim, which is a different method of movement which requires a swim speed or swim checks.
Perfect! Thanks Peachbottom and Oladon for your definitive answers.
I can't find it stated anywhere that water is difficult terrain.
Difficult Terrain is written in "such as" manner including undergrowth, steep stairs and broken ground, so it isn't an exhaustive list. Water could be included.
Difficult Terrain hampers movement, counting as 2 squares of movement.
The Water section doesn't list itself as Difficult Terrain. However, it does hamper movement, counting as either 2 or 4 squares of movement.
On one hand, water contains the quality of hampered movement that Difficult Terrain also contains, so maybe it's Difficult Terrain based on that fact. However, that does not necessarily define it as Difficult Terrain. After all, all oranges are orange colored, but that does not mean that everything that is orange colored is an orange.
Either way, water functions very similarly, but it especially matters in regards to effects that ignore difficult terrain. Whether or not water is Difficult Terrain, it still increases movement costs, prevents 5 foot steps and because a Charge cannot be performed with hindered movement, a charge thus cannot normally be performed in water.
I'll leave us with some questions to consider.
Should a creature with Nimble Steps be able to 5 foot step in a deep bog, (normally costing 4 squares of movement) as easily as it nimbly steps on broken ground?
Should a Duelist be able to use Acrobatic Charge to charge across water (which would be awesome)?
Should a creature with Nimble Steps be able to 5 foot step in a deep bog, (normally costing 4 squares of movement) as easily as it nimbly steps on broken ground?Should a Duelist be able to use Acrobatic Charge to charge across water (which would be awesome)?
No in both cases. Unless they were just very badly worded abilities. Lets look at an ability that allows you to walk on water.
Light Steps (Ex): At 6th level, a ninja learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
It specifically calls out that it does work over water. Which also leads me to conclude that water is not Difficult Terrain, but Something Else that has Difficult Terrain like properties.
Another consideration. A human standing in a shallow bog who receives a spell that lets him have a swim speed should not be able to charge or take a 5' step because the bog is not deep enough to swim, so he still has to walk through the terrain.
In other words, just having a swim speed doesn't negate the effects of slogging on foot through water - you have to be able to USE that movement speed, which you can do in deep bogs but not shallow bogs.
I've searched back through Rules Questions a short distance. This topic has come up before, with people concluding both ways, but I don't see too much consensus or anything official.
Awesome! Let's bicker over it; oh, let's do! Quick! Somebody tell me that my opinion is ignorant! Meanwhile, I'll try to think up an opinion...
OK, I'll bite, it's what tarrasques do. I don't know if your opinion that you don't have yet will be ignorant, but your post was not only unhelpful, but it was belittling to the other posters on the forums. Very uncalled for.
Should a creature with Nimble Steps be able to 5 foot step in a deep bog, (normally costing 4 squares of movement) as easily as it nimbly steps on broken ground?Should a Duelist be able to use Acrobatic Charge to charge across water (which would be awesome)?
No in both cases. Unless they were just very badly worded abilities. Lets look at an ability that allows you to walk on water.
It specifically calls out that it does work over water. Which also leads me to conclude that water is not Difficult Terrain, but Something Else that has Difficult Terrain like properties.
Light Steps (Ex): At 6th level, a ninja learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
You posted Light steps, which is a ninja ability. Not Nimble Moves, which is what I think Troubleshooter was referring to.
Nimble Moves
You can move across a single obstacle with ease.
Prerequisites: Dex 13.
Benefit: Whenever you move, you may move through 5 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This feat allows you to take a 5-foot step into difficult terrain.
Yes, nimble moves would let you 5' step while standing in water, but not while swimming.
Duelist acrobatic charge should likewise let you charge over water you can stand in (it is difficult terrain) but not through water you are swimming in (for that you need a swim speed).
I agree that when dealing with creatures outside of the Small to Large range described in the rules, you should factor in the equivalent height that the water rises on the creature as compared to a Medium-sized creature and apply the appropriate modifiers.
If the height of the water is negligible to the creature, you can apply the slippery condition to the terrain if you like. It doesn't make a big difference but I like to make terrain interesting whenever possible.
Slippery: Water, ice, slime, or blood can make any of the dungeon floors described in this section more treacherous. Slippery floors increase the DC of Acrobatics checks by 5.