It seems like it works similar to the shadowdancers/assassins HiPS ability
If it does then DV doesn't help at all
If they get concealment in normal light I don't see how DV would negate the ability...DV isn't a magical beam from your eyes that makes the darkness disappear :)
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I have to agree with Drakkiel. A lot of people are under the impression that Darkvision automatically eliminates ALL forms of concealment and ALL ability to use Stealth within dim light and dark areas. All Darkvision really does is allow you to see in the same detail through dim light and darkness as if you had normal vision and were in normal or bright light, minus the color because it's gray-scale vision. Mechanically all it does is take away the cocealment and miss chance provided by dim and dark illumination. In no way should it override the concealment other sources, unless specifically and explicitly stated (like in the darkness spell description).
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Most people only pay attention to a couple of the descriptions and rules associated with DV but in fact if you read all the material it is fairly clear, IMO:
1. Darkvision is an extraordinary ability, while Shadow Blend is a supernatural ability.
1a. I don't generally allow (Ex) to trump (Su) unless specifically stated in the rules, maybe that's just me.
2. Darkvision (Ex) strongly implies that it isn't meant to see through magical effects. It states that it cannot see through invisibility or any other illusions. It also states that it doesn't allow you to see anything you would not otherwise be able to see (as if you had normal vision in normal or bright light).
2a. Shadow Blend is a (Su) ability and is therefore defined as "magical in nature."
3. Darkvision explicitly states it doesn't allow you to see anything you wouldn't otherwise be able to see (as if you had normal vision in normal or bright light).
3a. Two of the three forms of Shadow Blend state they grant concealment and a miss chance even in normal light. The Shadow Form evolution (a bumped up evolution of Shadow Blend) even grants concealment and a miss chance in bright light.
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When you look at all the rules and descriptions of DV and look at all three points above it should become clear that DV would not likely help against Shadow Blend. DV is (Ex) while SB is (Su). DV implies it doesn't see though magical effects while SB is a magical effect. DV says it doesn't allow you to see anything you wouldn't otherwise be able to see (IE: Invisibility and Illusions still work) while SB works against normal vision in normal and bright light.
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Hi
My question is: is the concealment granted by the Shadow Blend ability possessed by many creatures negated by darkvision? Consider:
The shadow mastiff has Shadow Blend:
In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (50% miss chance). Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability; a daylight spell, however, does. A shadow mastiff can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
Shadow Creature (from shadow creature template) has Shadow Blend:
In any condition of illumination other than bright light, a shadow creature blends into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). A shadow creature can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
Eidolons can get Shadow Blend:
In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). If it has the shadow form evolution, it instead gains total concealment (50% miss chance). The eidolon can suspend or resume this ability as a free action. Source: Advanced Race Guide
And Fetchlings have Shadow Blending:
Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.
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In the case of a Shadow Mastiff, the 3rd level spell Daylight can defeat there ability. If darkvision can too, then almost every creature in every beastiary and many players also defeat their ability.
In all the Shadow Blend abilities the wording is "giving it concealment", where as in Shadow Blending the wording is "instead of the normal". The normal concealment granted to creatures in areas of darkness is most certainly negated by darkvision, however is it safe to say that an ability that explicitly says "this ability grants concealment" cannot be so easily overcome?
I invite your wisdom.
z.
ps I'm a player...
Hey, A little off the subject but I am going to be running a fetchling master summoner how is it working for you?
My understanding goes along with the convention in this thread. Darkvision doesn't interfere with Shadow Blend effects. They're (Su) magical effects that work in certain light conditions. Whether someone can see in those light conditions with darkvision is irrelevant to whether the magical effect works.
Yes but from the perspective of the creature with dark vision there are no shadows within 60+ ft of them....ergo if you are only using shadows for your concealment I see no reason why you would state the shadowblending trumps your dark vision.
So, in your opinion, should someone with Darkvision be able to see through the 50% miss chance in "normal light" or the 20% miss chance in "bright light" granted by an Eidolon's Shadow Blend and Shadow Form evolutions?
For the record there is NOTHING in the rules that state SU trumps EX...
I'm not sure if this was in answer to my post or Wolf Munroe's but I didn't say it was RAW. I said: "I don't generally allow (Ex) to trump (Su) unless specifically stated in the rules, maybe that's just me."
that is ignorance of the paragraph that establishes which SOURCE abilities come from..EX merely means its unusual and doesn't need magic to operate...
Again, I'm not sure if this was in answer to my post or Wolf Munroe's but there's no ignorance involved. I've read the descriptions of (Ex) and (Su) several times. I have also had similar debates many times concerning Darkvision's interaction with Hide in Plain Sight. This debate is really no different.
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You probably also feel DV defeats HiPS. HERE is my argument that DV doesn't hinder HiPS at all, it's very similar to my argument above but more detailed and contains the actual rules sections I pulled my arguments above from. Additionally, for what it's worth, HERE and HERE are JJ's comments on the subject. It's not strictly "official" but it's good enough for me. I'm not brining that argument in to derail this thread, but rather because the arguments are similar, they are very similar abilities and concepts. Similar enough that I stand by my original argument on this matter.
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I've heard your argument on (Su) vs. (Ex). Do you have a good argument for points 2, 2a, 3, and 3a of my post above?
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Rules I referenced in my reasoning:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
A key thing to remember here is this section is not the OVER ALL description of Darkvision, even though it's the part most people focus on. This section is in additional rules / "Vision and Light" and it is only talking about the interactions between different types of vision and the four lighting levels of light. It is not an over all description of how DV interacts with special abilities and magical effects.
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
This is the over all description of how DV interacts with the world, not just light sources. It's clearly implied, IMO, that DV is not meant to see through magical effects. It is also explicit, IMO, that DV only gives you the ability to see what a guy with normal vision could see if the area were in normal light conditions. Four out of the five descriptions of Shadow Blend I found state that it works in normal and even bright light. Creatures with normal vision can't see through this effect in normal or even bright light. If you allow creatures with DV to see through it in dim light or darkness you are directly contradicting the portion of rules that state it doesn't allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise.
Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.
Shadow Blend (Su) In any condition of illumination other than bright light, a shadow creature blends into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). A shadow creature can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). If it has the shadow form evolution, it instead gains total concealment (50% miss chance). The eidolon can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
Shadow Form (Su): The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct. This shadow form grants the eidolon constant concealment (20% miss chance), and its melee attacks affect incorporeal creatures as if it had the ghost touch weapon property. The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures.
Shadow Blend (Su) In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (50% miss chance). Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability; a daylight spell, however, does. A shadow mastiff can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
I am anticipating an argument along the lines of, "it doesn't say DV can't see through magical affects, just invisibility and illusions." While that is true, those are only the examples provided to clarify the actual rule: "It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise." Additionally, if DV were meant to see through anything related to shadow, that would be specified when the example goes on to say that illusions still work. There are quite a few illusion spells that are from the Shadow sub-school. DV doesn't make any exception for those spells, it says all illusions still work properly. Why would DV not see through Shadow Illusion spells, which draw from the plane of shadow but be able to see through supernatural abilities tied to the shadow plane? That doesn't make sense to me. In fact, the only magical darkness or shadow effect that I know of that darkvision can penetrate is the Darkness spell. Back in 3.5 darkvision couldn't even see through that.
New my friend shadow would come in on this lol
I'm telling you...we keep getting into threads that devolve into the one with Komoda
I think there is a conflict of interest with Shadowlord's post, and it should be stricken from the record.
Any statements from the lord of shadows promoting the powers of darkness should be taken with a grain of salt.
I only reveal the true power of shadows.
New my friend shadow would come in on this lol
I'm telling you...we keep getting into threads that devolve into the one with Komoda
I have somewhat of a compulsion to jump into threads dealing with Stealth, shadow, HiPS, or Rogue-ish classes. It might be because that is generally what I try to play. A vast majority of my past posts have been in debates on those subjects or similar ones.
I hear ya...my favorite character so far is my assassin but I have always enjoyed stealth characters and stealth/espionage games are my favorite on PC/Xbox
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Darkvision lets you see creatures and objects through the darkness.
Shadowdancer, shadow blending, etc... merge you *with* the darkness. DV does not help.
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I've been needing a solid answer to this for some time. I've FAQed this, I hope others do as well.
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I also have FAQ -ed this thread.
My 2¢: it is implied in the description of dark vision that it cannot see through magic (both in the wording used, and in the examples given) and shadow blend is a magical ability. Although is is not granted by a spell, as per other debates on the subject, it still works under the same guidelines.
That being said, take this example into consideration:
A Creature with dark vision can see darkness, but said darkness is still actually there. A creature standing in same darkness thus is granted his shadow blend because the only prerequisite is to be in an area as such, which he is. The creature with dark vision can see in that area, but the %miss chance granted the SB creature does not come from the darkness its self, but rather from the ability shadow blend. This can be described however you like, but I prefer to think of it as though the shadows act similar to frodos cloak in lotr where it is clear there is an object there, but said object looks as though its part of the background. Although it wouldn't work nearly as effectively, you get my meaning. The shadows act as a sort of cloak around the creature to somewhat hide them.
Regardless of how you look at it in your imagination, the activation of shadow blend is not determined by weather or not someone can see them, but by where they are standing. Therefore a you could then use the stealth skill or others to hide from someone with dark vision because you are being granted a concealment chance by shadow blend, weather that creature can see you or not makes no difference. Just like hiding behind a table make no difference because they can't see through that table, they also can't see through the magic that is giving you concealment.
As a side note, my last character was a fetchling rogue who had SB and my gm ruled that darkvision negated it, so I know what it feels like to have an utterly useless racial ability, but he did rule that it allowed me to use stealth weather or not they could see me, they just didn't get a %miss chance to hit me.
What about true seeing and Shadow Blend(ing)?
What about true seeing and Shadow Blend(ing)?
True Seeing is a 5th to 7th level spell (depending on your flavor of casting) designed for the purpose of seeing through magical effects. It doesn't specifically name Shadow Blend but it does name some other similar effects. I would probably rule True Seeing can see through the Shadow Blend ability.
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This issue came up recently in a game I'm running, and I wanted to throw in my two cents.
I hold the unpopular opinion that dark-vision DOES indeed negate Shadow Blend, for the following reasons.
1. All the arguments FOR Shadowblend>Darkvision hinge on several extrapolations of the rules, and nothing that is actually printed in the book itself. The "Su" trumps "Ex" argument is pure extrapolation/opinion, and has no real basis other than "This is the way it makes the most sense to me". Someone could theorycraft argue that all day without either side making any real headway, but for the purposes of my post, point 1 is that NO WHERE in the material does it say that "Su" trumps "Ex". Therefore, that argument is invalid.
2. Next, for those of you who still believe that Shadowblend, being a supernatural, should trump darkvision, I'd like to take to an argument based out of the "Race Builder" in the Advance Race guide. If we look at the "Shadow Blending" trait in the race guide, we see that it is only world 1RP, whereas Darkvision, the ability that supposedly cannot counter it, is worth 2RP. The BOOK ITSELF seems to be telling us that Darkvision is, by and large, a stronger ability than Shadow Blending. On top of this, Shadow Blending is down at the bottom of the trait pool as one of the cheapest traits in the game, even though it's proposed usage would be extremely strong. I think the book itself makes it clear that the authors did not intend for Shadow Blending to work against Darkvision. For those of you who prefer to make arguments based on extrapolation instead of actual rules in the book, I'd love to see a counter to this, combined with my next point.
3. Let's now take a look at the actual rules of the game. Looking at Fetchlings in the Advance Race Guide, the description of Shadowblend is as follows:
"Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance."
The part of this that I want to focus on is this bit: "50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment". Given what this says, the ONLY information we have from the book is to then look at how dim light affects concealment. In the Additional Rules section, we glean the following information about Dim-Light concealment:
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those WITHOUT darkvision or the ability to see in darkness"
This is THE most important, most rule-based argument on the subject. The rules CLEARLY state that darkvision negates the 20% miss chance that the 50% miss chance for Shadow Blending is based on. The skill itself even states that the skill is SIMPLY an extension of the original miss chance. It doesn't change what does and doesn't negate the miss chance. It doesn't magically merge your character into a shadow so that a darkvision character looks right past you. It ONLY adds to the 20% concealment chance in dim light.
So. That's my argument. I feel that there is no RULE BASED way to beat the argument I've presented, so I welcome you guys to try, although I will say, I'm going to completely ignore any argument that is based on personal extrapolation, for reasons stated above.
I think there are a lot of good arguments here. Unfortunately, all arguments for any side are going to be due to extrapolation in this case, given the lack of more detailed references than what has already been posted. However, I will put in my 2 cents and see where it falls.
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Here are the points I feel are most important:
DV sees through <i>normal<i/> shadows, not illusions or supernatural shadow, as listed in the descriptions of both DV and Deeper Darkness (Darkness only subtracts from normal lighting and does not actually create "magic" shadows, from what I can glean, thus allowing DV to function normally).
Several versions of SB do, in fact, function in normal and even bright light. Furthermore, as a SU ability SB is most definitely a magical effect, and is easily categorized IMO as a Shadow Illusion effect. Therefore SB is not <i>negated</i> by DV (anything capable of using SB in full light gets all benefits vs a creature with DV, after all).
However, the "normal" SB ability (Fetchling version) only works in dim light and serves only to <i>increase the miss chance</i> (presumably by magically cloaking the character in the extant shadows or some similar fluff).
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So here's my view on things:
While the Fetchling (used for simplicity) might not get the normal miss chance for being in dim light vs a character with DV, they should still get the <i>increase</i> in miss chance provided by SB, as the Fetchling is <i>magically</i> altering the shadows to conceal themselves to a greater extent than normal.
I would rule that DV vs Fetchling SB would reduce the effect, but still allow it to function. Straight math would result in a 30% miss chance with no concealment, but as this would not be a standard value in PF I would reduce it to 20% miss chance and throw in concealment allowing the Fetchling to continue sneaking about.
Personally, I find the ability works as a sort of 'camouflage' inherent to Fetchlings. It's not that they're creating supernatural shadow so much as they blend in to shadows better than most races. As such, while the source of their camouflage may be supernatural in origin (they're Native Outsiders) they are not creating supernatural shadow.
As for Su beating Ex? No. Just no. There are Ex abilities that make creatures INDESTRUCTIBLE. The ability to see through something as paltry as being harder to discern in shadows to the Human eye is not beyond reason. In fact, Ex reads as this:
"Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics."
For all concerned, my argument was not simply that SU beats EX. What I intended to point out in my arguments above, if you read them fully, was that most people focus on the description of DV found in the Additional Rules/Vision and Light section of the rules:
with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
They read this and say, Darkvision trumps anything having to do with shadow in any way. However, this is not a description of Darkvision. It is a description of how DV is handled in in regards to NORMAL light and darkness levels and it leaves out some very important bits of RAW. If you go to the Glossary and actually look up the description of what Darkvision actually is, you see this:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
The bolded portion makes it very clear that Darkvision is not meant to see through magical effects. Shadow Blend, by virtue of being a SU ability, is a magical effect.
It seems to me that the 'shadow blend' ability and the fetchlings 'shadow blending' are quite different.
Shadow Blend is trigger by being in a certain level of light (anything other than bright light) and it creates a miss chance, even when there would be none. I don't see anything here where it depends on the vision of the person doing the attack to have an effect. Basically it appears they cause the shadows to cover them in a disorienting way, more similar to blur than to not being seen.
Shadow Blending though is based upon a creature attacking when having an miss chance do to darkness and it makes that miss chance increase. An attacker that didn't have the miss chance in the first place would not be affected.
Mechanically all it does is take away the cocealment and miss chance provided by dim and dark illumination.
And there you have it. Darkvision does in fact defeat Shadowblending.
Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.
Any creature which does not suffer miss chance in dim light or darkness ignores the effects of Shadowblending.
The bolded portion makes it very clear that Darkvision is not meant to see through magical effects.
Darkvision does indeed see through magical effects. Darkvision can see through the spell Darkness, and (depending on the area) Deeper Darkness, if the spell does not lower the light level below regular darkness. It can't see through invisibility or illusions, but then again - nothing except special senses can, so that is not evidence Darkvision can't see through magic.
i think by magical effects he meant more like the assassins HiPS
i think by magical effects he meant more like the assassins HiPS
HIPS only facilitates mundane stealth, which is why Darkvision can't see through it, though RAW is murky on that.
Regardless, things like HiPS don't really have any relevance here since it's not related. Darkvision's "You can't see anything you normally couldn't see" thing doesn't apply to Shadowblending, since you can very much see an enemy in dim light (even with normal vision) and Shadowblending only affects miss chance, not actual concealment.
Here is an interesting question. If you are in dim light and cast Blur on yourself does the miss chance for Blur go up to 50%? Since darkvision doesn't see through Blur.
blur gives you a 20% miss chance flat out. Nothing says that it stacks with other forms of concealment
if someone without DV is looking at someone in dim light that has blur casted on them its still 20%
It seems to me that the 'shadow blend' ability and the fetchlings 'shadow blending' are quite different.
Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.Any creature which does not suffer miss chance in dim light or darkness ignores the effects of Shadowblending
These are some pretty good points. Valid. Also, DV allows you to see in dim light and darkness as if it were normal light. In normal light Shadow Blending grants no bonuses, so I may be wrong concerning Shadowblend.
The bolded portion makes it very clear that Darkvision is not meant to see through magical effects.Darkvision does indeed see through magical effects. Darkvision can see through the spell Darkness, and (depending on the area) Deeper Darkness, if the spell does not lower the light level below regular darkness. It can't see through invisibility or illusions, but then again - nothing except special senses can, so that is not evidence Darkvision can't see through magic.
Even though I may be wrong about Shadow Blending, DV seeing through the Darkness spell is kinda irrelevant to the argument. It is a special case of specific rules trumping general rules, not a blanket rule. The blanket (general) rule is that DV cannot see anything it wouldn't normally be able to see, with invisibility and other illusions given as an example. So, DV can only see through the Darkness spell because the Darkness spell descriptor (specific rule) says it can, not because of any blanket rules about DV. Also, fun fact, back in the 3.5 version of DV and Darkness, the Darkness spell description specifically stated DV could not see through it.
blur gives you a 20% miss chance flat out. Nothing says that it stacks with other forms of concealment
if someone without DV is looking at someone in dim light that has blur casted on them its still 20%
As much as I think it should stack in that case, you are right. There is RAW that says different sources of concealment don't stack.
Found it:
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
However, it also goes on to say:
Varying Degrees of Concealment: Certain situations may provide more or less than typical concealment, and modify the miss chance accordingly.
So, it could come down to a GM call. But the GM's I've played for just go with no stacking.
Mmmh... I think that there is shadow when you see in black and white, even in daylight... So if you have normal vision with Darkvision you see shadow everywhere...
To understand how Darkvision work just look at a black and white movie... That's exactly how seeing in black and white with normal vision looks like...
I'm not sure I understand the point you're making
My point is that there is Shadow in Darkvision so everything that work in a shadow work in darkvision, shadow jump etc. work even if you have Darkvision... If you have to stand in a shadow to do something and if that shadow exist in normal light then that shadow exist in Darkvision.
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@ those who say that dark vision beats shadow blend. There are multiple versions of shadow blend, and some (such as the shadow mastiff's) say that the target gains full concealment even in normal light conditions, and only in Daylight is the ability negated. Do you feel that dark vision works even against these version of shadow blend?
If you believe it does, why?
DV should not negate Shadow Blend.
To be clear: Shadow Blending is a Fetchling ability that mimics, but not as powerful as, the Shadow Blend ability exhibited by many creatures.
Shadow Blend works even in normal light. DV says you see in dim light and darkness as well as you would in normal light. So, if something has an effect on your normal sight in normal light, it will also have an effect on your DV sight in dim light and darkness.
On the other hand, Shadow Blending only increases the level of concealment you gain from dim light. But you don't gain concealment at all in dim light against a creature with DV.
Therefore, a Fetchling's Shadow Blending would not work against a creature with DV, but another creature’s Shadow Blend probably would.