Sorcerer questions


Advice

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So I'm making a cadre of new characters to have available for PFS play when I'm unable to play my "main" character. The one that seems to be giving me the most trouble is my arcane caster. I've decided on a sorcerer, but beyond that I seem to have hit a few stumbling blocks.

I've read quite a few threads about sorcerers on the boards, and after reading them, I have a few questions.

1. Is there anything in another PFS-legal race that is worth giving up the human alternate favored class bonus for?

2. If I do go human, is there any reason not to give up the human bonus feat and "skilled" racial trait in exchange for +2 to 2 different abilities?

3. Other than Spell Focus in whichever school I decide on, probably conjuration for increased grease DC, what feats should I look at taking on a low level sorcerer?

4. Are there any truly compelling arguments against taking the arcane bloodline?

5. If I do go arcane bloodline, bonded item or compsagnathus familiar?

6. Traits? Clueless here as I'm not really sure which ones are really going to help.

7. Level 1 spells. I got a scenario's worth of credit for GMing First Steps, and I was planning on buying a wand of mage armor with my 2 PP. That would allow me to pick up grease and color spray at level 1. Good idea? Bad idea? Terrible idea? Bloody genius?!? I'll also probably add more GM credit to the character and will likely add a wand of magic missile and a wand of infernal healing to my equipment by the time I hit level 2.

Silver Crusade

Just a bump before I leave for the day.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

1. Half Elf has access to the paragon surge spell, although that might be PFS banned. I need to check. Other races are viable, but not as good as humans because the +1 spell per level is huge. Thats 12 extra spells in PFS. Want darkvision? burn your level 6 favored class bonus and get the spell (for example).

2. Well if you put your other +2 in intelligence, then that gets you your skill point back, but not much else. You lose the feat though. I think I would probably like the feat instead. The more the merrier.

3. Toughness, Improved Initiative, Varisian Tattoo, and Spell specialization all have their uses. Also Improved Familiar may be good.

4. Against? No. Some of the other bloodlines are pretty good, but they go with a theme. Arcane is considered the strongest generalist bloodline. (Fey bloodline if you want to enchant like a maniac for example.)

5. Familiar. The bonded item is redundant with spontaneous casting. I would also consider the greensting scorpion because it's more pocketable and cool looking. Consider Improving your familiar. Sorcerers get UMD as a class skill and improved familiars will use your skill ranks. This makes it easy to get an improved familiar that can use wands reliably.

6. Magical lineage if you have one spell you're going to use a lot that depends on metamagic (a blast spell (even magic missile) + dazing metamagic is a good combo). Otherwise I recommend world traveler for diplomacy as a class skill, or boost your initiative or a save.

7. You have so few spells that grease and color spray become redundant (no damage / save or suck / area effect.) At first level, look at different and versatile. Maybe get grease at level 3 and take mount at level 1 instead. I find a random horse you can drop out for 2 hours has a ton of uses.

Silver Crusade

I like the mount idea, but aren't there a lot of places in PFS I won't have room for a horse?


Well depends on what you want to do. My gnome sorcerer in PFS lives off of colorspray and his gnome race helps there.

Again for th ehuman bonus, depneds on what you want to do. A sorcerer has one stat they rely one CHA. So getting a 20 stat there is a powerfull thing for them. More spells, higher DCs are worth it

Spell specializiation is awesome. One spell you get +2 caster levels and you can change it every even level. Mage tattoo is awesome as mentioned above. I disgaree with toughness, I think you should buff con and dump str, and possibly wisdom since you have will as your strong save.

Now if you are going conjuration I would probably pick wizard instead. As they are stronger at that. Plus the ACADAMAE GRADUATE to summon monsters as a standard istead of 1 round is an awesome feat for prepared casters only. Sorcerers are stronger for enchant and such. If you go that way dual blooded is pretty awesome(do not dump wis here) and human makes up the one less spell per level a bit. Take like fey and arcane so your Meta magiced spells are +3 dc is pretty sweet. Save or suck that. Or you could go undead and charm some zombies.

Depends on what you wanna do

Traits. Reactionary is great for a +2 intiative. They have a bunch +1 will save ones if you go cross blooded. Magic knack if you plan to dip. Magical Lineage and wayang spell hunter are under different groups so you can pick them both, they lower the MM spell increase for one spell by 1.

If you decide not to go cross blooded I would look at the tattooed sorcerer to get some awesome advantages.

As a PFS sorcerer your AC will be garbage. The best way to defend yourself is spells invisibiliy will defend you more than any armor.

I disagree a bit with the colorspray grease redudancy. grease has a much longer range. Also they target different saves. You do not want to colorspray a cleric, btu a rogue sure, and vise versa for the grease. plus they have different uses. You can use grease on items, or as a trap for oncoming people. Colorspray is a save die for you and the enemy as they are right on you.

Silver Crusade

Ok, let's try this again since my iPad deleted my huge post the first time.

Probably not going to dip or do cross-blooded since this is my first full caster and I want to keep it as simple as possible. S based on that, I'll probably go arcane with a scorpion familiar for the initiative bump.

20 in Cha very nice, can dump Str and Wis. how does 7/14/12/12/8/20 look?

What I want to do is be a bit of a blaster with utility in my spell choices. Maybe take first level feats of spell focus (evocation) and improved familiar.

Traits, maybe reactionary and magical lineage.

Spells
Cantrips: detect magic, read magic, ray of frost, light, and mage hand
1st Lvl: grease and either magic missile or burning hands

After looking at the sorcerer spell list, spell focus evo may not be necessary. Quite a few evo damage spells that don't require a save.

Oh, and is tattooed sorcerer PFS legal?


Gnome makes for a good blasting sorcerer with their Pyromaniac racial trait (+1 level to all fire spells). Half-Orcs get to add to fire damage via their favored class bonus. Humans are hard to beat though with two starting feats plus the extra spells known.

There are quite a few feats that a blasting sorcerer can pick. There are more feats than you will ever be able to get. Picking human as the race and sacrificing the extra feat for +2 to another stat stunts the start up time for your blasting sorcerer.

Blasting Sorcerer Feats:
- Spell Focus Evocation
- Spell Specialization
- Mage Tattoo
- Empower Spell
- Intense Spell
- Improved Initiative
(to name a few)

For a blasting theme, you'll want to go with the Draconic, Elemental (Primal), or Orc bloodlines for the extra +1 damage to spells. Fire is the optimal choice at low levels, due to the common nature of fire blasting spells.

For PFS, you can start with...

Spell Focus Evocation (human)
Spell Specialization (Burning Hands)

This gives you a 3d4+3 Burning Hands spell at level 1.

(to ramp this up to ludicrous levels, pick the trait Gifted Adept Burning Hands and choose cross-blooded archetype for a 4d4+8 Burning Hands, you can swap out these choices just before you hit level 2 if you so desired, but please note, this level of optimacy isn't required at all)

If choosing the Arcane bloodline, it might be better to just go Wizard. An admixture wizard will trump an arcane bloodline sorcerer for blasting effectiveness.


1. Is there anything in another PFS-legal race that is worth giving up the human alternate favored class bonus for?

No.

2. If I do go human, is there any reason not to give up the human bonus feat and "skilled" racial trait in exchange for +2 to 2 different abilities?

Yes. There are plenty of feats worth taking as a sorcerer. Because some of them lead to better feats on the harder-to-reach branches of feat trees, there are decent arguments for keeping the feat-and-skill-point instead of taking +2 Cha.

In addition, you're likely to find yourself hungry for skill ranks as a sorcerer: that +1/level is worth having in itself, if it's allowing you to max out Knowledge Arc, Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, UMD. Your need for Spellcraft isn't as acute as a wizard's, but you'll still find yourself wanting it for identifying spells as they're cast, and then too if you ever pick up a Ring of Spell Knowledge. If you dabble in charming, you may also want some ranks in Diplomacy and Linguistics. So yes, skill ranks are valuable to you.

3. Other than Spell Focus in whichever school I decide on, probably conjuration for increased grease DC, what feats should I look at taking on a low level sorcerer?

If you're taking SF (Conj), I can't recommend Augment Summoning too highly. Other lowlevel picks: Improved Initiative, Toughness, Superior Summoning, Extend Spell.

4. Are there any truly compelling arguments against taking the arcane bloodline?

No.

5. If I do go arcane bloodline, bonded item or compsagnathus familiar?

Familiar, and take Improved Familiar at 5th or 7th.

6. Traits? Clueless here as I'm not really sure which ones are really going to help.

As others have suggested, Magical Lineage is a gem. Lore Seeker is insanely good (possibly - hopefully - not PFS legal, I wouldn't know). Eyes and Ears of the City is a great second. Gifted Adept is okay, and Charming is nice if it fits the specifics of your character.

7. Level 1 spells. I got a scenario's worth of credit for GMing First Steps, and I was planning on buying a wand of mage armor with my 2 PP. That would allow me to pick up grease and color spray at level 1. Good idea? Bad idea? Terrible idea? Bloody genius?!? I'll also probably add more GM credit to the character and will likely add a wand of magic missile and a wand of infernal healing to my equipment by the time I hit level 2.

Decent idea. Colour Spray goes on being useful longer than most people notice (1 round area stun? not bad, though you'll still want to swap it out eventually). Other 1st level goodies: Enlarge Person (works on your familiar too), Silent Image (great once you have a familiar with wands - or a faerie dragon), Summon Minor Monster (superior augmented celestial skunks, for the win; but not until 3rd or so).

Silver Crusade

Man, so much conflicting advice, lol.

Ok, so here's what I am firm on and here's what I want to do. Maybe with that info we can get some consistent advice, lol.

I want to play a sorcerer because I much prefer spontaneous casters to prepared casters. So for that reason, wizard is out.

I want to be a human because the extra spells known can add a lot of flexibility to a sorcerer from what I've read over the past couple of days.

The biggest thing I am looking for in any character I create is flexibility. Of the 6 or 7 PFS characters I have created, only one of them is a one-trick pony, and that's my fighter archer. All of my other characters have a few things they are good at. Since I don't know who I will be playing with on a week to week basis, I figure flexibility/utility is more important than having one role and being useless everywhere else. This ties back in to why I'm going human and most like arcane bloodline.

As for bloodline, I've read a lot about how much better arcane is than any other bloodline, and a lot of what makes it better seems to be the flexibility the familiar offers. Seeing a theme here?

It looks like feats, traits, and spells kind of all go together, because which traits and feats you take will depend a lot on which spells you know. As I've said a few times, I am looking for flexibility in the character, including in what spells she knows. I know this is harder to do on a sorcerer, but I'm pretty dead set against playing a wizard. So, with that in mind, I will be able to "know" 3 first level spells. Two of them will be on my spells known list, and the other will be on a wand with 50 charges that will always cast at CL1. Which spells do I choose for the most flexibility? Also, I'm going to be adding 2 more scenarios of GM credit to the character this weekend, so if I wanted to I could add 2 more wands of 1st level spells. I'm thinking this would be a good idea. I'm looking at maybe having wands of magic missile, infernal healing, and mage armor. And, of course, I'll still have two 1st level spells known on my spell list.

So, with that information, what spells, traits, and feats give me the most flexibility?


If you could get an ifriit boon, the alternative racial trait wildfire heart giving +4 on initiative could be worth it.

Silver Crusade

I didn't even know there were ifrit race boons or how to get one.


Fixed: human, sorcerer, arcane bloodline, "blaster with utility" theme

Feats: Spell Focus Evocation, Mage Tattoo

Mage Tattoo will give you a boost to all evocation spells. It is flexible in that it helps all evocation spells, allowing you to mix it up (at later levels).

Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init), <1 other>

Spells: Burning Hands (2d4, DC 17R), Cause Fear (DC 16W)

Color Spray has the same range as Burning Hands, so I skipped it. Cause Fear gives you a different control range option with a guaranteed effect. Is a 2d4 Burning Hands worth it? Well.... you could temporarily pick up the Gifted Adept trait for level 1, and then swap the trait at level 2. Since you might start as level 2, this might be a moot point.

A Wand of Magic Missile is a great 2PP purchase at level 1. I like your other wand choices too.

Don't forget to deck yourself out in scrolls as well. Pick up 16 scrolls with your 400gp gained from the first adventure. That will give you your versatility.

Silver Crusade

What scrolls do you recommend? The only other caster type character I've played is my inquisitor, and it's easy on that character because, a) the spell list is a lot smaller and b) I just pick all the buff spells and ignore the rest, my bow does enough damage.

What about a 2nd trait that adds either diplomacy or perception as a class skill? +6 initiative doesn't do a whole lot of good if you're surprised all the time.

Also, for the stat spread, how does 7/14/12/12/8/20 look? That's after the +2 from being human went into Cha. This will give me +2 on ranged touch attacks, which I'm sure I will get eventually. I'll also get 5 skill ranks per level as a human. That's enough for both knowledges, spellcraft, UMD and either perception or diplomacy. I'm leaning more towards Eyes and Ears of the City for my other trait, since I can roll Diplomacy untrained and get a +5 bonus to it without any ranks in it at level 1.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

What scrolls do you recommend?

Mage Armor, Shield, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Comprehend Languages, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Magic Weapon, etc.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

What about a 2nd trait that adds either diplomacy or perception as a class skill? +6 initiative doesn't do a whole lot of good if you're surprised all the time.

You can't go wrong with Perception or Diplomacy as a class skill. Draconic Bloodline (I know, Arcane bloodline is fixed) gives Perception as a class skill.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:


Also, for the stat spread, how does 7/14/12/12/8/20 look?

Honestly? Terrible. You really don't need a 20 CHA to start. And being concerned with Perception while dumping WIS is at odds.

.
8/14/13/12/12/18 would suffice nicely. Put the 13 in CON or INT and bump at level 4 to suit. You are going to be suffering from low hitpoints with having a 12 CON and no favored class bonuses slated to boost hitpoints, so I lean towards CON.

That's just my opinion of course.

Silver Crusade

I see your point about the Wis and perception. I'd rather drop Str to a 7 and just bump Con to a 14 to start with. So 7/14/14/12/12/18 is what I'm looking at. OR, if I won't be making too many ranged touch attacks, I can put the 14 from Dex into Int.


Meh, let others percieve. You are a face and blaster or controller. Your slight perception will be owned by the perception monkey in the group. You are a team do not try to do everything. Or you will do the thing you want to less.

The best bloodline depends on what you wanna do. Aracne is good for something definetly. But sticking to it for a blaster is holding you back.

If you wanna do balsting the 20 cha is not so important, but dipping would make you much more powerful. The tatto sorcerer is legal but you can not do that and the dual blooded. Blasting you want dual blooded dragon/orc. I would highly suggest a dip in wizard for admixure to make your spells change the tpye of damage or you may be shut down in certain fights. If you are stuck on arcane I would go orc as the second to give dark vision and +1 damage per die rolls for every element.

Your spells will not need many touch so Con is more valuable than dex. If you like skills int over dex even

My level 1 blaster did 4d4+8 damage at first level. With a level 1 rebuild at level 3 5d4+11 that slows if it damages you.

Keep in mind blaster casters will be trumped but optimal other classes unless you hit more than one thing. Save or suck spells are much more powerful. There you would want the 20 cha because every bonus to your DC makes it exponentially harder to resist.

Liberty's Edge

Finlanderboy wrote:
If you go that way dual blooded is pretty awesome(do not dump wis here) and human makes up the one less spell per level a bit.

I have to disagree with this. The Human Favored Class Bonus doesn't make up for a Cross-blooded Sorcerer not being able to cast a 2nd level spell until 5th level. And your Favored Class Bonus won't net you an extra 2nd level spell until 7th level...

Cross-Blooded Sorcerer - a great 1 level dip for Wizards or Magi, not so great for actual Sorcerers.

Liberty's Edge

Finlanderboy wrote:
Blasting you want dual blooded dragon/orc. I would highly suggest a dip in wizard for admixure to make your spells change the tpye of damage or you may be shut down in certain fights.

Frankly, I'd reverse that advice. Go for a 1 level dip in Cross-blooded Draconic / Orc, and then the rest of your levels in Admixture Wizard...

Silver Crusade

Ok Finlander, help me out then. Gimme a full blaster build and then tell me what an arcane sorcerer is good at. I really just want to be the best I can be. My original idea was a tiefling wild blooded sage sorcerer. I gave up on that idea because i thought human was better and thought arcane was the most powerful bloodline.

I guess I really need to decide what I want to do and then read up on every bloodline.


Arcane is great for raising the DC of save or suck spells. When you need every bit to raise those DCs so they make or break the fight. Raising the DC +1 and adding persistence to the spell is much more devestating than just making it 5% more effective.

I agree with hey mitch on blaster bit, but the context was going sorcerer. Also the I said human favroed class makes up for it a bit. Not completely. This is a sorcerer thread. So I wrote in those context.

Yes you would want to figure out what you want to do. For example a kitsune enchanter fey bloodline is devestating and the DCs can be crazy if you build to make neigh impossible saves. My colorspray gnome is arcane to raise the DCs. If you like teiflings there are variant tieflings that do not have a cha penalty so you could pick the infernal bloodline to have a high save for charm spells. So you just enchant everyone like a succubus. The sorcerer is a great single attribute class. Honestly pumping cha to 20 is very easy and dumping str.

My blaster
Human
int 20
cha 12(to get the oracle and sorc spells)
rest you figure out.
traits
magical knack wizard
wayang spell hunter fireball

feats
pfs give spell focus instead of scribe scroll
lvl 1 spell specialization(at first bruning hands)
human mage tatto evocation

level 1 wizard admixture evoker
level 2 sorcer dual blooded orc/blue dragon(pick a spell that is forbidden as wiz)
level 3 Oracle waves(winter would be better, but I do not have that book they add sneak)
Revelation cold spell, enemies that fail a save from cold damage from your spells are slowed for 1 round
feat intensify or rime(can not use it yet)
every level after wizard
You will be pounding things at first with a heavy burning hands then once you get level 2 spells you should be able to buy a MM wand of the feat you did not take at level 3 to have 8d4+17 damage burning hands thats slows and entangles.

At level 7 you will get fireball and start truely ownign things
a 10d6+22 damage fireball that slows and entangles.

Silver Crusade

Yeah I don't know about all that multi classing. How would you build a straight sorcerer blaster?


you definately could build a straight class blaster, but you are holding yourself back.

I would pick human orc/red dragon dual blooded sorcerer.
(your trait otions can vary depending on now power or later power)
feats spell focus
spell speciailization

level 3 mage tattoo

Your spells would be a touch less damage, but you get higher level spell progression would be a level better. Your choices of spells bad. Will save much worse, others a touch better. Less class skills, less 0 levels, no ability to heal. No ability to change the type of energy.

The ability to not change the tyoe of damage or being nerfed by taking another bloodline to be able to, I would not make this build.

I think a sorcerer is stronger as a save or suck caster. Adjusting the spell they need on the fly. A blaster is best done with multiclassing as the core really makes them weak. Casters are not really great damage machines. A bow user trumps them. Casters are best abusing action economy by stopping the enemies, or adding more allies.

Silver Crusade

Ok, so a sorcerer is best as a save or suck caster. See, I didn't know that before just now. How would you build a sorcerer for that role? I don't have to be all Blasty McBlasterson. In fact it will be nice to play a character whose raison d'être isn't doing as much damage as possible.

So you said arcane bloodline is best for save or suck. Which spell school do most of those spells come from? I'm guessing color spray is one of those spells, but I can't imagine there are too many more in the illusion school. Also, this is the build that won't require a whole lot of Dex, so something like 7/12/12/14/8/18 would be a good pre-racial ability array for this sharacter right? What feats am I looking at taking? Are there any traits that will make me better at the save or suck thing, or should I just take traits to make me a more well-rounded character? Things like World Traveler to get diplomacy as a class skill?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Ok, so a sorcerer is best as a save or suck caster.

No. This is a bad thought line .

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I guess I really need to decide what I want to do and then read up on every bloodline.

This is the proper thought line.

You can make a sorcerer into a very good blaster, controller, summoner, etc. The trick is that you can't be very good at all of them. You can eventually be decent at all of them, but that takes time and effort.

Take a moment and decide what you really want to do as a caster.

And for posterity, you do not need to be able to do 8d4+17 damage at level 5 to be good as a blaster.

Silver Crusade

I really want to be a human with the arcane bloodline. What are those best at and how do I build the best one?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I really want to be a human with the arcane bloodline. What are those best at and how do I build the best one?

That's fine, but it will help if you go into more depth.

- Can you explain why you want human and the arcane bloodline?
- What do you want your sorcerer to be able to do?
- Are there any background elements that might have an influence?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I really want to be a human with the arcane bloodline. What are those best at and how do I build the best one?

I'm playing one of these right now. Primary focus is control, but pretty well rounded in my opinion. I like dazing spell a lot, so have been using that with snapdragon fireworks for a bit, but will use it with ball lightning when I hit 12th (10th now).

Feats are for broad spellcasting capability and in this order - toughness, great fortitude, combat casting, spell penetration, improved familiar (dust mephit), improved initiative (bloodline), dazing spell. I'll get persistent spell at 11th and both quicken spell and focus (evocation) at 13th.

20 point buy was: s9, d12, c12, i12, wis8, cha20. I like social skills for sorcerer, so the int was important to me. I also like high DCs. You may be wiser buying an 18 in cha.

Spell selection is the big one here. Here's what mine looks like at 10th level (with all the human and arcane bonuses):

1- Identify, prot from evil, magic missile, mage armor, grease, silent image, snapdragon fireworks, mount

2 - invisibility, glitterdust, resist energy, create pit, levitate, mirror image, burning gaze

3 - dispel magic, haste, stinking cloud, fireball, aqueous orb, halt undead

4 - dimension door, summon monster IV, confusion, wall of ice, greater false life

5 - icy prison

That setup gives me a good spell for most occasions. the next two levels are a pretty big power boost with several additional spells and feats.

Silver Crusade

Rory wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I really want to be a human with the arcane bloodline. What are those best at and how do I build the best one?

That's fine, but it will help if you go into more depth.

- Can you explain why you want human and the arcane bloodline?
- What do you want your sorcerer to be able to do?
- Are there any background elements that might have an influence?

I'm really looking for utility. I know I would get that easier out of a wizard, but I really don't like prepared casters. Heck, the paladin I built I took the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype to get rid of spells, and paladins don't even get that many spells. I read up on wizards last night, and to be honest, I was quite confused about how many spells they get in their spellbook and how many they can cast per day. I also didn't quite get the whole arcane schools and opposed schools thing.

I also like sorcerer, and arcane bloodline particularly, because I came up with a good backstory for it. The character is going to be a young man whose entire family going back generations is powerful wizards. When he comes of age, they expect him to go to the Acaamae as well, but he has very little interest in studying magic. However, because of his lineage, his arcane power manifests without any study and his entire life is him coming to grips with this arcane power that he didn't ask for and isn't sure he wants.


Don't be tempted to multiclass, multiclassing is not a very good decision nine out of ten times. A sorcerer1/wizard1/oracle1 sounds like a heap of fun, but the fun will fade as soon as you reach mid-level play, because you will be able to do tons of stuff, none of which will actually manage to succeed.

Your idea of a human sorcerer with the arcane bloodline is excellent, both as a blaster and utility caster.
I would recommend focusing on blasting spells and indeed having a high Cha so that your DCs are high and you have many spells per day.

Don't worry too much about choosing no-save spells. You are a sorcerer, not a wizard, this gives you the privilege of casting the same spell a few more times than a wizard normally has prepared.

Since you are a human I would recommend choosing your human bonus spells as defensive or utility spells. Most sorcerers aren't really utility casters at all, outside of utility spells gained from bloodlines, so being a human really gives you that luxury and versality.

I agree with feat advice so far. Improved familiar is awesome and Toughness, Improved Initiative, Spell focus (evocation) are all good options for a "glass cannon" sorcerer.

Your offensive spell choice should really depend on your ability scores... If you have a high Dex you can easily enjoy shooting ranged touch attacks. If you have a high Cha I would recommend area-effect spells. If you perhaps one day encounter enemies with Evasion and Improved Evasion, then you just start shooting the touch attacks. Simple.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I read up on wizards last night, and to be honest, I was quite confused about how many spells they get in their spellbook and how many they can cast per day. I also didn't quite get the whole arcane schools and opposed schools thing.

Unless you're a universalist (no good reason to be one) you pick a particular arcane school to specialize in. This gets you certain special abilities related to that school, and one extra spell slot per day per level, but you have to prepare a spell of that school in it. To balance your specialization in this school, you have to choose any other two schools as your opposition schools, which just means that preparing a spell from those schools requires two spell slots. Later on you can eliminate the penalty for an opposition school through a Discovery if you wish.

A 3rd level Evoker gets the following spell slots from the class:

0: 4
1: 2
2: 1

If he has at least 14 INT, he will get bonus spell slots as follows:

1: 1
2: 1

And his evocation school allows him one additional spell slot per day for both levels, but he needs to use an Evocation spell for it.

1: 1*
2: 1*

So the breakdown would be:
0: 4
1: 3+1*
2: 2+1*

His spells known consist of all 0-level spells other than those of his opposition schools (not sure about that, the PRD uses the word 'prohibited schools' which seems to be a holdover from 3.5), 3+(INT MOD) spells he got at 1st level, 4 more from 2nd and 3rd level, plus any other spells he found in scrolls or spellbooks along the way.

Silver Crusade

Ok PoB-w, so say I'm a 1st level Wizard and want to go evocation school. I definitely do not want conjuration or illusion as opposed schools. What opposed schools do you recommend and how many spell slots and spells known do I get per day? Assume 20 Int for the exercise.

And now I'm getting excited about a wizard, especially with all those knowledges as class skills.

Ok, if I have this correct, a 1st level wizard with the admixture school would get:

4 cantrips I can cast an unlimited number of times, at least 1 of which must be from the evocation school
4 1st level spells I can cast once each, at least 1 of which must be from the evocation school
Intense spells and Versatile Evocation

So, what feats and traits would work best with this kind of build?

Silver Crusade

So you want to stick to pure sorcerer (no multi-class) for simplicity, and human for the bonus spells known.

But why so insistent on arcane bloodline? Just for the familiar? You've mentioned blasting a couple of times, so I'll just say that if you want to have a familiar and be a good blasting sorcerer, I'd recommend the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. It gives you the familiar for free and the Varisian Tattoo for +1 CL on your blasting spells, which is extra damage for most of them. Then you can pick a bloodline that goes well with whatever blasting theme you want to do. ie If you want to do cold blasting with the Rime Metamagic feat, then go with a bloodline that lets you convert any blasting spell to cold. Or just go Draconic for +1 damage per die on any blasting spell that matches your element.


If you want to focus on utility spells rather than blastspells as a sorcerer or wizard... then make sure you have a little more Dex and Con than an offensive build. Many utility spells don't require a save so you don't really need that maxed out Cha or Int for that matter. Dex and Con will enhance your AC, saves, and total hit-points, and your ranged attacks.
As far as spells go, take the spells that have the most versatile and useful effects.

Spells that I can recommend: (the ones that come up in my head right now, these are most but not all of the good ones)

lvl0:
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Dancing Lights(more useful than Light), Resistance(+1 to all saves, nice), Ghost Sound(nice distraction), Mending(bring broken items back in functional condition), Open/Close(trigger traps from distance), Disrupt undead (1d6 damage to undead, no save, never run out of this spell, nice!) Message, Prestidigitation(all kinds of strange tricks)

lvl1:
Grease - Trip enemies, complicate their movement, disarm them, bonus to escaping grapples

Enlarge Person - Increases threat range and weapon damage, useful for allies, and if you want to increase the range of your touch attacks.

Silent Image - An illusion that only grants a save when interacted with, this can be put to creative use a lot.

Sleep - 4HD limit becomes a problem after level 4, but it's great spell up till then.

Charm Person - Sometimes hard to pull off right, just make sure other people in your party don't screw this spell up for you, if it works it is really nice

lvl2:
Glitterdust - Blind creatures and reveal invisible ones (to everyone, not just yourself)

Pyrotechnics - You only need a flame to start with but gives a neat set of effects, just carry some torches or alchemist's fire.

Protection from Evil - Not only a good defensive spell but also defends against mind-control. (a bit circumstancial but makes up for a lot of trouble)

I could go on but there's a ton of guides out there.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I'm really looking for utility.

...

I also like sorcerer, and arcane bloodline particularly, because I came up with a good backstory for it. The character is going to be a young man whose entire family going back generations is powerful wizards. When he comes of age, they expect him to go to the Acaamae as well, but he has very little interest in studying magic. However, because of his lineage, his arcane power manifests without any study and his entire life is him coming to grips with this arcane power that he didn't ask for and isn't sure he wants.

Excellent. These are good things.

An Arcane Bloodline has two strengths. The first is the arcane bond you get at 1st level. The second is the little (yes, little) bit of flexibility/power you gain from metamagic. It is a complete waste until level 4 minimum typically, and really level 5 unless you pick a metamagic feat at level 3 you can't use until level 4.

So, first off, you'll want to decide if you want a familiar, or a bonded item. The advantages of a familiar are that you get a small pet, a little boost to some odd effect, and the familiar can potentially be used for a few extra small spell things in combat at later levels. The arcane bond will give you +1 spell slot at your highest level (not as useful to a sorcerer) and allow you to create a cheap magic item (a Ring of Spell Knowledge would be amazing) at later levels.

Playing to the second strength of the Arcane bloodline, metamagics, means that you'll be after spells that force opponents to make saves. These can be save-or-die, blasting, or debuff spells. Summoning and buffing won't benefit from the Arcane bloodline much at all.

Targeting level 4, you need a metamagic feat that boosts a spell a level and applies to a spell that has a save. There are a number of options here, and it will help if you have a preference on what type of sorcerer you want to be.

Example: Blaster
- level 1 damage spell with a save: Burning Hands
- synergy metamagic feats: Lingering Spell, Intensified Spell, Elemental Spell, Focused Spell

Example: Controller
- level 1 control spells: colour spray, grease, cause fear, charm person
- synergy metamagic feats: Reach Spell, Focused Spell

Example: Debuffer
- level 1 debuff spells: ray of enfeeblement, chill touch
- synergy metamagic feats: Reach Spell, Bouncing Spell

If you don't have a specialty preference, then go with Focused Spell as your first metamagic. Focused Spell has good synergy with the Arcane bloodline metamagic specialty. When you apply this feat, the target you pick has the DC raised by +3. That's a big jump.

There are tweaks that can be made with Traits to help jump start a specialty. If you have a preference of a specialty caster, that will go a long way towards helping select good traits for you.

Above, you'll notice 1-2 spells can be selected for your "specialty". The other spells known can start to fill in your "utility". There are a lot of good utility spells. The world is your oyster.

Unseen Servant might match your background with coming from a family of powerful wizards. You were given a "butler" by your family that you could summon to do your bidding. This spell can do a number of neat little things in and out of combat. It has a decent duration too.

So at 4th level, a potential spell list (assuming Focused Spell and 18 CHA):

- Identify (bloodline), Color Spray (DC 15W), Ray of Enfeeblement DC 15F), Unseen Servant, Mage Armor
- Flaming Sphere (DC 16R), Focused Color Spray (DC 18W)

(flavor as desired)

EDIT: Removed Focused Spell applied incorrectly in the wrong places.

Silver Crusade

See, I like those ideas Rory. The reason I'm looking for utility is because this is going to be for PFS, so I don't know who I will be playing with on a scenario by scenario basis. One weekend I might have a barbarian and an archer in the party tearing things to shreds and what they really need is battlefield control. The next week I might get a bard and a ninja and they could really use that extra little bit of damage a blaster can provide. I'd like to keep my arcane caster as a sorcerer, but if I really have to go wizard, I'll do it. My groupmates will just have to live with me being slightly confused about what my character can do, lol.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The reason I'm looking for utility is because this is going to be for PFS, so I don't know who I will be playing with on a scenario by scenario basis. One weekend I might have a barbarian and an archer in the party tearing things to shreds and what they really need is battlefield control. The next week I might get a bard and a ninja and they could really use that extra little bit of damage a blaster can provide.

For PFS strategies, there are a couple items to keep in mind.

.
- Sorcerers are "terrible" in the versatility department until levels 4 to 6 and higher. Your class bloodline may allow you to specialize on one thing and do it well at low levels. Versatility isn't it. If you have a long term preference on a specialty, you can help it at low levels by spell, trait and feat choices.

- Arcane bloodline makes for a decent bloodline for "versatility" strength. Still, you won't be able to leverage it any faster.

- Level 2 is the worst level of all for a sorcerer. You get basically nothing at all for the character's versatility. Be warned. It sucks.

- PFS greatly negates these issues due to being able to get wands and scrolls predictably. Do so. Use them without hesitation. Further, at level 2 and 3, you can afford a Page of Spell Knowledge (or three) to add to your spells known.

If you are patient and utilize scrolls/wands to get thru level 3, then the class really starts to open up in versatility on its own.

Silver Crusade

Every caster should be a walking scroll library, not just sorcerers. Just be sure to buy a few scroll cases, in case you end up in the water with a GM who actually pays attention to such things.

I was playing a level 1 cleric the other day, and my scroll of Air Bubble came in handy. It's not something that comes up often enough to ever prepare, but stuff like that and Comprehend Languages make great scrolls to walk around with for utility casting.

Silver Crusade

Ok, Page of Spell Knowledge has me a little confused. So is it like a super-scroll, where as long as it's a spell on your spell list, you can cast it over and over as long as you have a slot open?

The more I think about it, the more I'm torn between an Arcane bloodline sorcerer, and just making a wizard. There's a lot that attracts me to a wizard like all the knowledge skills as class skills, the high Int score to use with those knowledge skills and spellcraft, and the versatility in spells known. However, I'm still a bit shaky on the whole spellbook and how many spell slots I get thing.

And I know scrolls and wands can add utility to the sorcerer, but a wizard can use those same scrolls and wands for even more utility. The longer this thread goes on, the more I talk myself into a wizard.

Hell, I'm a smart guy, I can figure out wizard mechanics!

So, Rory, in your opinion, what are the two most useless arcane schools for wizards? How would you build a versatile wizard? I don't care about race, and I'm not too particular about which is my main arcane school, I just don't want evocation or illusion to be an opposed school.

Let's assume a stat spread of 7/14/12/18/12/8 before racial modifiers. I'm going to assume I want a familiar instead of a bonded item and if so will probably go with a scorpion for the +4 initiative. What should I consider for traits and feats?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Ok, Page of Spell Knowledge has me a little confused. So is it like a super-scroll, where as long as it's a spell on your spell list, you can cast it over and over as long as you have a slot open?

As long as you have the Page of Spell Knowledge, you treat the spell associated with it as one of your sorcerer spells known.

Example:
Let's say you are a 2nd level sorcerer and know Color Spray and Unseen Servant as your two spells known. You can cast 5 spells at 1st level (with an 18 CHA). These are split between your known spells.

You adventure and find a Page of Spell Knowledge that has the spell Expeditious Retreat. While possessing this magic item, you now treat your spells known as Color Spray, Unseen Servant and Expeditious Retreat. You still can only cast 5 spells per day, but it can be in any combination of 3 spells now instead of just the 2.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

So, Rory, in your opinion, what are the two most useless arcane schools for wizards? How would you build a versatile wizard? I don't care about race, and I'm not too particular about which is my main arcane school, I just don't want evocation or illusion to be an opposed school.

Useless schools... it's all opinion.

Evocation and Illusion you want kept, so I'm not considering them.

Unless you are a divination specialist, you can get by without this school the easiest. Detect Magic will require two cantrip slots, which will be the biggest spell missed.

I find that Enchanting isn't missed too much unless you are going for a "diplomatic" wizard. And let's face it, that's a forte of the sorcerer with its high CHA, and we just came from there.

Necromancy has small little things that are nice (Cause Fear, False Life, Fear, etc.) but these aren't super critical. False Life is hard to replace, but most else can be.

Abjuration, Conjuration, and Transmutation have way too many nice spells for me to even consider as an opposition school.

Remember, you can use two slots to memorize one of your opposition school spells, so they aren't banned. If you can't see many spells you'd cast in a particular school very often at all, that will be your best target.

Alas, I'll be away for a few days, so won't be able to answer the question about the versatile wizard. The best advice I can quickly recommend is to look up Treantmonk's guide to the God Wizard.

Silver Crusade

The one thing in Divination that concerned me was comprehend languages, then I remembered I would be able to speak almost every language in the game by level 5, lol. After reviewing the cantrips and 1st- and 2nd-level spells, I think I'll make Divination and Enchantment as my opposed schools. Now I just have to decide what my favored school will be.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just glanced through the thread, so apologies if I duplicate something that's been said before. It also looks like you might be leaning Wizard, but I still like the Sorcerer for flexibility. Spontaneous casting really helps have the right spell at the right time (though you have to suffer through a couple of levels with only a few options).

My sorcerer kindof got forced into being a generalist, because I had no idea what I was doing when I made him. So, I've learned a lot of lessons after getting him to 10th level (as of tonight). Namely, Abyssal bloodline is... well, abysmal, unless you're going for a very specific melee build. Even then, it takes so many levels to get anything really good. You're probably on the right track with Arcane if you want to be a flexible caster.

Toughness... Don't think of this feat as extra hitpoints. Think of it as an excuse to use your favored class bonus for the bonus spell and not feel like you're too squishy. I don't know if I'd take it at first level, because you'll probably not spend favored class on level 0 spells anyway. But maybe 3rd or 5th. Think about it this way, if you're looking to add extra known spells, you could either take the Expanded Arcana feat and get two spells, or you can take Toughness and spend your favored class every level on a spell, while still having the same number of hitpoints you would have had normally.

Page of Spell Knowledge - Essentially, this adds a spell of its level to your known spells. So, need to pick up Protection from Evil? 1,000 gold, now it's a known spell for you and always available as long as you have spell slots available. It's a quick way to expand your utility, and since you spontaneously cast, you'll always have it available when that demon appears. Because of the cost, this works best on level 1 spells, but level 2 (4,000 gp) isn't unreasonable, either.

Mnemonic Vestment 5,000gp - Look it up. This item is your friend. Spontaneously cast one spell per day off of a written source (scroll, spell book) using one of your spell slots and cast as if you knew the spell (in other words, at your caster level). Now buy a bunch of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level scrolls of utility spells that you don't cast often. 4th and 5th level when you can cast them, too. Suddenly, once a day you have access to all of them. Move action to take the scroll out, standard to cast. If you need a second use of the spell that day, just use the scroll. They're cheap. Now you can reserve your spells known for things you cast a lot. I've kept Fireball on a scroll, for example, because there are a lot of scenarios where I just couldn't use it due to the size of the room or the melee characters charging up. But when I need it, just take out the scroll and cast a full caster level Fireball. At 25gp each, invest in a scroll of pretty much every 1st level spell. At 150gp each, you can get a lot of the 2nd levels as well. And for 375gp, a fair number of 3rds, too.

Runestones of Power - Basically Pearls of Power for spontaneous casters. They cost twice as much (2,000 for 1st level, 4,000 for 2nd, etc.). But, for 2,000 gp, you can go ahead and cast that Mage Armor using one of your slots instead of the wand, and still have your normal spell allotment. When you add up charges at 15gp/hour, you'll eventually come out ahead on the runestone. Pick up an extra or two just to make sure you always have spell slots available.

Lesser Rod of Extend Spell - 3,000gp - Well worth the investment. Suddenly that 4th level mage armor lasts you 8 hours. Safe a use for a minutes/level buff, or, if you are smart about it, Haste or a round/level spell in combat. Action economy gets tricky, since it's a full round action to cast a metamagic spell for sorcerers, but done right, it can work.

Metamagic Feats - Especially Empower once you have 3rd level spell slots, and later Intensify Spell (if you use Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, or Snowball). Possibly Persistent Spell if you use save or suck spells. Also, by taking Empower, you don't have to take a blast spell at every spell level. What's better for a fourth level spell? an 8d6 single target blast spell, or two 4d6 Empowered Scorching Rays? (Essentially 8d6*1.5) With Metamagic Feats and being able to spontaneously apply them, you really only need one blast spell and one area effect blast and you can get by for many levels. Maybe take a couple just to have a variety of damage types. Something with a ranged touch attack will be important for things with good saves or when Spell Turning shows up in higher level scenarios (learned that one the hard way...).

False Life - 2nd level spell. 1d10+level temp hitpoints. You have the spell slots to burn, so may as well keep yourself from getting killed. Don't bother to extend this one. At 1 hour/level, you'll usually get hit and lose the temp hitpoints before the duration runs out.

Feather Fall - Because, you don't have to waste a spell slot memorizing it, and when you need it, you generally REALLY need it. Maybe buy a snapleaf instead, but only if you really want the invisibility part. At 750gp for a snapleaf and 1,000gp for a page of spell knowledge, you'll come out ahead with the page in the long run.

Be smart about your spell selection. Taking Vanish as a level 1 spell? Don't really need invisibility. Don't take similar spells at different levels. Also, Haste is your friend. You'll have plenty of 3rd level spell slots when you hit higher levels. Cast Haste every encounter in PFS and still have 3rd level slots available, then watch the Wizard thank you, because they don't have to memorize it, and the rest of the party thank you because Haste. Fly is another good one to actually know, because when you need it, chances are more than just you needs it.

Stinking Cloud, Dimension Door, Displacement, Dispel Magic, Black Tentacles (a candidate for a scroll and Mnemonic Vestment), Stoneskin, Communal buff spells, See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge... These are all great spells to have available when you need them.

At 9th level, with a 20 Cha, and 2 1st level Runestones, I've got 9 1st, 7 2nd, 7 3rd, and 5 4th level slots. More than enough to cast any utility and buff spells and still do plenty of blasting. Going to 10th, I'll add a 4th and 4 5th level slots. Using the feats, items and spells above, I've always got something helpful I can do, even if it's just run up and cast displacement on the fighter. It does sometimes take me a minute or two to figure out what I should do, because I have so many options. And this is all with a character that had no focus for most of his levels.

Silver Crusade

Ha thanks FT. I had started leaning towards wizard, even though I really didn't want to play one. Since my inquisitor will be level 6 after tomorrow's session and I don't have any other character beyond level 1, I put together a bunch of level 1s so that I can jump into any low level game and have something to play. The arcane caster was giving me the most problems, though.

With all that advice, I think I'm back to a sorcerer, I just need to figure out traits and level 1 feats now.


Alternative to human? Half-elf has been mentioned, Gnome is good as an illusion or fire caster but the honourable Kitsune is astonishing as a Enchantment, save or die specialist. By far the best 'Enchanter' in the game - you can have sleep save DC's of 20+ at 1st level and it gets even better as you level up because of the racial class bonus. A one trick pony, but what a trick!

Silver Crusade

This is for PFS and I don't have a kitsune boon, so that's out. The races available to me are the core races, plus aasimar, tiefling, and tengu.

I'll probably end up going human arcane bloodline sorcerer. Take a scorpion familiar for the initiative boost. Give it improved familiar at level 5. I just need to figure out traits and feats.

Also nice that I've got a scenario's worth of GM credit under my belt so when I create the character I'll have a wand, probably of magic missile, and 567 gold to spend on scrolls and potions and other stuff.

Silver Crusade

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

This is for PFS and I don't have a kitsune boon, so that's out. The races available to me are the core races, plus aasimar, tiefling, and tengu.

I'll probably end up going human arcane bloodline sorcerer. Take a scorpion familiar for the initiative boost. Give it improved familiar at level 5. I just need to figure out traits and feats.

Also nice that I've got a scenario's worth of GM credit under my belt so when I create the character I'll have a wand, probably of magic missile, and 567 gold to spend on scrolls and potions and other stuff.

Like I said in my earlier post, consider the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype from Inner Sea Magic. It's PFS legal, and will give you the familiar for free. Then you can look at other bloodlines to see if something appeals to you more, because you're not locked into Arcane just for the familiar. Just remember that you'll be giving up your 1st and 9th level bloodline powers for the stuff you get from the Tattooed archetype.

Silver Crusade

I looked into the tattooed sorcerer archetype. I liked it, but didn't particularly care for any of the other bloodlines as a human. If I decide to go non-human, some of the other bloodlines may appeal to me more. I also don't want to have to buy another book just to play my sorcerer. I already had to buy the ARG and Blood of Angels to play my angelkin aasimar paladin. I didn't mind that, though, because my bard and possibly my ninja will be aasimar as well.

Oh, for wizards, what do they get at 1st level to replace scribe scroll?

Silver Crusade

In PFS, wizards get Spell Focus instead of Scribe Scroll. That's in the Guide to Organized Play.

Silver Crusade

Fromper wrote:
In PFS, wizards get Spell Focus instead of Scribe Scroll. That's in the Guide to Organized Play.

Yep, figured it was, but I'm at work and I can't access the guide right now.

But anyway, I just had a whack-a-doodle idea. What bloodline works the best for illusion spells? I was originally going to make a sorcerer as my arcane caster and a life oracle as my divine caster. However, I just read a thread about one of the revelations for heavens oracles, and it game my an idea. A gnome that makes a 2 level dip into heavens oracle, then goes sorcerer the rest of the way and focuses on illusion spells. With a 20 in Cha to start, I can make color spray relevant against monsters all the way up to 7 HD. And by level 8 I should be able to get Cha to 24, which means it's releveant against monsters up to 9 HD. And of course there are other illusion spells with the [pattern] descriptor. With the 2 level dip into oracle, I get color spray on my list as an oracle and I can cast it up to 4 times. I also get 5 orisons, and 2 other 1st level oracle spells known and I get either cure light wounds or inflict light wounds.

I just need to figure out which curse hinders me the least and which sorcerer bloodline helps an illusionist the most.

If I do this, I'll make my healer a casting focused cleric, if that's even possible.

Silver Crusade

Gnome + Heavens Oracle + Sorcerer + Color Spray is actually a well known powergamer combo. I've seen it on one character locally and mentioned on the forums a couple of times. I just don't know which sorc bloodline it's usually done with. The one thing I can think of that would add to that specific combo is that the Undead bloodline would make your Color Spray work on a lot of undead who would normally be immune to it, because it's mind affecting.

Oh, and if you do this, definitely go Cure Light Wounds instead of Inflict as your known oracle spell. If an enemy is that close to you with this character, you'll be using Color Spray, not Inflict.

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Sorcerer questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.