Hello everyone and sorry if this thread already exists. And still sorry for my english...
Actually I was waiting Ultimate Campaign release before discuss this topic.
I don't really understand why kingdom roles are based only on attributes. I guess it's a gameplay question, to balance PCs developments and not exclude Barbarians and other cheap skills class, but it's not really a good reason for me. I can't explain myself how a wild sorcerer with feathers, tribal tattoos, primal language and a stratospheric Charisma (and nothing else) can be efficient in each and every leadership roles of a kingdom (or almost). Being a good leader is indeed something innate, but not only innate for me, and almost not innate at all for some specific roles. And I love the idea that my PCs would want to spend some skill points for kingdom roles, learning levels after levels to become better leaders. I admit kingdom development would be a big part of my campaign (with lots of intrigues, wars, diplomacy issues, political alliances and so on...) and not only a free-time activity between two dungeons.
I'm working on skill based roles for my campaign. The kingdom phase is just beginning for the second season of my campaign next September so I have time left to tweak and fix everything before.
I already have some strong ideas I guess (Diplomacy or Intimidation for the Ruler, Diplomacy and Knowledge Nobles for the Diplomat, Arcane Spellcaster level for the Magister, Divine Spellcaster level for the High Priest, Appraise and Profession Clerk for the Treasurer, I want also create a Seneshal role based on profession Library, Scribe and Clerk)
But before anything, I would love to know if some of you already worked or maybe played already with such kind of rules.
Thx everyone
I'm interested in this topic as well.
This growth would happen at a MUCH faster rate than the attribute bonus
will grow on any of their stats. This being the case - you'll need to
find a way to balance your new system - otherwise you might find a low
level PC getting say +15 in your system, whereas even a 15th level PC
by RAW might only get +6 or maybe +8 to the relevant stat...
Of course, I can't take the raw skill bonus. I was thinking at something about skill score divided by 5 or 4 (I prefer skill score rather than ranks cos it includes attributes, items, racial, and special class bonus). The main drawback is that it complicates a lot the bonus calculation, but it's a minor drawback for me in front of having much "realistic" bonuses.
I will tell you of my proposal in an upcoming post but pay attention that my work is still at its beginning so it still needs a lot of tweaking before being playable I guess. Any constructive propositions or critical will be really appreciated.
You could make each kingdom role a Profession:role skill instead of the key stat, and use the ranks in that skill/4 to give the appropriate bonus.
I chose /4 because that would simulate a +1(from level 1-4) to +4(level 13-16) stat bonus.
Just a random example.
In Ultimate Campaign, they have optional rules where 5 ranks in a certain skill (depending on the position) adds to your attribute. If I recall correctly, Knowledge (Nobility) adds bonuses for the Ruler. In addition, Leadership actually applies the bonus you gain for those modifiers to your Leadership score. So, that'll help anybody that decided to dump Charisma. Of course, I feel that it makes sense for a high Charisma to be used for the Leadership score and I like rewarding those that don't have an abysmal score for it.
Also, many of the positions give alternate scores you can use so you don't have to pump your wisdom. Councilor can use Wisdom, Generals can use Strength, Grand Diplomats can use Intelligence, etc.
In Ultimate Campaign, they have optional rules where 5 ranks in a certain skill (depending on the position) adds to your attribute.
I got those rules and it's not really enough for me as it's only a bonus. I'd love to go further with rules that would limit bonus roles with skill scores.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here it is my work until now on this topic. Please don't hesitate to make suggestions.
Monarch or Ruler
Main leader of the kingdom, essentially a charismatic role, title depends of the kingdom size
Bonus formula : MIN(Bon.CHA ; (Diplomacy + Sense Motive)/10) rounded down, +1 if Leadership feat.
Benefit :A knight, a baron and a count chooses one of a nation’s statistics (Economy, Loyalty, or Stability) and modifies that score by his bonus, a duke or a grand duke chooses two of these values to modify, and a king or a high king modifies all three values.
Vacancy Penalty : A kingdom without a ruler cannot claim new hexes, develop open spaces, build roads, or purchase city districts. Also, increase Unrest by 4 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no ruler.
Special : The ruler can't be easily changed from one month to another. Except during the creation turn, any ruler change takes 4 kingdom turns to be effective (during this time, the vacancy penalty doesn't apply as the new ruler is in place but his Ruler bonus doesn't apply neither on stats). Ruler title depends of the kingdom size:
from 1 to 4 hex : Knight
from 5 to 10 hex : Baron
from 11 to 20 hex : Count
from 21 to 60 hex : Duke
from 61 to 80 hex : Grand Duke
from 81 to 130 hex : King
131 hex and more : High King
Consort
The consort applies his or her Ruler bonus the same way than the ruler itself. The ruler and consort bonus of a county or smaller kingdom can applies on different kingdom stats.
As long as the consort or the ruler is present for 1 week per month, the vacancy penalty is avoided.
In addition to the consort's ruler bonus, the consort adds half of his/her Charisma bonus to the Kingdom Loyalty stat.
Special : The consort can't be easily changed from one month to another. Except during the creation turn, any consort change takes 1 kingdom turn to be effective (during this time, both charima bonus to loyalty and consort's ruler bonus to stats don't apply)
Vacancy Penalty : None
Heir
No change
Spymaster
The Spymaster observes the kingdom’s underworld/criminal elements and spies on other kingdoms.
Bonus formula : MIN(MAX(Bon.DEX;Bon.CHA) ; (Diplomacy + Sense Motive + Bluff + Disable Device + Escape Artist + Disguise + Sleight Of Hand + Perception + Stealth)/45), rounded down
Benefit : Increase Loyalty, Economy, or Stability (Spymaster’s choice)
Vacancy Penalty : Rampant crime reduces Economy by 4. Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no Spymaster.
Marshall
Commander of the guards, Master of the kingdom's defenses and of the inner security, Applies the laws
Bonus formula : MIN(BAB ; (MAX(Diplomacy;Intimidate)+Know.geography+Know.local+Perception+Prof.soldie r+Sense motive+Survival)/25), rounded down, +1 if Leadership feat.
Benefit : Stability
Vacancy Penalty : -4 Stability, -2 Loyalty
Special : In a county or a smaller kingdom, the same character can be Marshall and General at the same time without vacancy penalty and without malus (both his Marshall bonus and General bonus apply). This double rôle can be assumed as well in a duchy or a grand duchy, with a -2 malus to both Marshall and General bonus but still without vacancy penalty. This double rôle can't be assumed in bigger kingdoms.
Grand diplomat
Master of the foreign relationships
Bonus formula : ((2xDiplomacy)+2x(number of known languages)+Sense Motive+ Know. nobles)/25, rounded down, -5 if illetrism
Benefit : Stability
Vacancy Penalty : -2 Stability, no promotion Edicts
General or Connetable
Supreme leader of the armies
Bonus formula : MIN(MAX(Bon.FOR ;Bon. CHA) ;BAB ; (MAX(Diplomacy;Intimidate)+Prof.soldier)/10) rounded down, +1 if Leadership feat.
Benefit : Stability
Vacancy Penalty : -4 Stability
Special : In a county or a smaller kingdom, the same character can be Marshall and General at the same time without vacancy penalty and without malus (both his Marshall bonus and General bonus apply). This double rôle can be assumed as well in a duchy or a grand duchy, with a -2 malus to both Marshall and General bonus but still without vacancy penalty. This double rôle can't be assumed in bigger kingdoms.
Hierophant or High Priest
Spiritual guide of a kingdom
Bonus formula : MIN(MAX(Bon.SAG ;Bon.CHA) ;Divine spellcaster level ; (Diplomacy+Know.religion+Spellcraft)/15)) rounded down
Benefit : Stability
Vacancy Penalty : Decrease Stability and Loyalty by 2. Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no High Priest.
Special. The choice of a Hierophant gives a strong idea about the spiritual and morale teint of a kingdom. In the case of a multi-religious society, the systematic choice of a religion instead of another one can bring jealousy and oppositions of interests... Too much differencies between a kingdom alignment and divinity alignment of his hierophant can bring as well some bad consequences.
Chancelor
Regent, up to rule the kingdom in place of the ruler in case of vacancy. The chancelor loyalty bonus is based on counter power with the ruler, so the bonus increases with ruler/chancelor oppositions, but it's also in this case when the chancelor is tempted by putsch or assassinations attempts...
Bonus formula : Same as ruler, modified by both alignment differences (absolute value) between Chancelor and Ruler (using Ultimate Campaign 9-point scale alignment optional rule) :
MIN(Bon.CHA ; (Diplomacy + Sense Motive)/10) rounded down, +1 if Leadership feat, +Absolute value (loyal/chaotic ruler score - loyal/chaotic chancelor score) + Absolute value (good/evil ruler score - good-evil chancelor score) -8
Benefit : Loyalty
Vacancy Penalty : None. A kingdom with a chancelor and without ruler is a kingdom with a chancelor as a ruler and no chancelor.
Special: Whenever the Chancelor act as the Ruler for the turn, he has to succeed at a Loyalty check during the kingdom’s Upkeep phase or Unrest increases by 1.
Seneshal
Master of the laws and edicts, Arch-librarian of the kingdom
Bonus formula : ((Prof.scribe+Prof.clerk+Prof.librarian)/15) rounded down, -5 if illetrism.
Benefit : Loyalty
Vacancy Penalty : -4 Loyalty, -2 Stability, no edicts.
Councilor
Represent people, usually a guild master, merchants or craftsmen. Master of town cryers as well
Bonus formula : ((Diplomacy+Know.local+Best craft or profession skill)/15) rounded down
Benefit : Loyalty
Vacancy Penalty : Decrease Loyalty by 2. The kingdom cannot gain benefits from festivals. Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no Councilor.
Special : The efficiency of the councilor depends of his own reputation among the people of the kingdom. The GameMaster may adjust this bonus following the fame, the reputation or the infamy of the councilor
Royal assassin
The Royal Assassin can serve as a public executioner, a headsman, or a shadowy eradicator of kingdom rivals.
Bonus formula : MIN(MAX(Bon.FOR;Bon.DEX);Sneak Attack dices; (Acrobatics + Climb+ Disable Device+ Disguise+ Escape Artist+ Perception+ Sleight Of Hand+ Stealth)/40) rounded down
Benefit : Loyalty
Vacancy Penalty : None
Spécial : Fear provoked by the presence of the Royal Assassin reduces Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase.
Chamberlain
Jack of all trade of the ruler, master of the intendancy. He helps to make things works in the kingdom, especially to rule the expenditures.
Bonus formula : (Appraise+ Bluff+ Diplomacy+ Intimidate+ Know.geo+ Know.local+ Perception+ Prof.scribe+ Prof.clerk+ Prof.librarian+ Sense Motive+ Climb+ Disable Device+ Disguise+ Escape Artist+ Perception+ Sleight Of Hand+ Stealth)/40 rounded down
Benefit : Economy
Vacancy Penalty : None
Magister
The Magister guides a kingdom’s higher learning and magical employment.
Bonus formula : MIN(MAX(Bon.INT;Bon.CHA);Arcane spellcaster level; (Know.arcana + Spellcraft)/10 ) rounded down
Benefit : Economy
Vacancy Penalty : -4 Economy
Treasurer
The Treasurer manages the treasury and is in charge of the incomes and outcomes of the royal treasure.
Bonus formula : (Appraise+ Prof.clerk)/10 arrondi à l'inférieur, -5 if illetrism.
Benefit : Economy
Vacancy Penalty :-4 Economy, Each BP expenditures are increased by kingdom size/20, Incomes are decreased by kingdom size/20.
Special : In a county or a smaller kingdom, the same character can be Treasurer and Sheriff at the same time without vacancy penalty and without malus (both his Treasurer bonus and Sheriff bonus apply). This double role can be assumed as well in a duchy or a grand duchy, with a -2 malus to both Treasurer and Sheriff bonus but still without vacancy penalty. This double role can't be assumed in bigger kingdoms.
Sheriff or Warden
In charge of the tax collection, and the special ressources rentability
Bonus formula : (Appraise+ MAX(Diplomacy;Intimidate)+ Know.local+ Prof.clerk+ Sense Motive)/25 rounded down
Benefit : Economy
Vacancy Penalty : -4 Economy, tax level can't be nothing else than « None » , Special ressources are bringing no Economy bonus.
Special : In a county or a smaller kingdom, the same character can be Treasurer and Sheriff at the same time without vacancy penalty and without malus (both his Treasurer bonus and Sheriff bonus apply). This double role can be assumed as well in a duchy or a grand duchy, with a -2 malus to both Treasurer and Sheriff bonus but still without vacancy penalty. This double role can't be assumed in bigger kingdoms.
The thing with rulers and counsellors is that what they have to do isn't usually summed up in any one skill, or even any several skills. Knowledge checks for their job -- which could be any of three or four skills, for any of them (local, nobility, geography are all obvious, but the High Priest might need engineering to evaluate the proposed blueprints for the temple, or the ranger might need arcana to deal with a dragon, or, or, or.) Social skills (Sense Motive and Diplomacy on a daily basis, maybe Bluff or Intimidate depending on style), anyone might need Linguistics or Appraise at any moment ... and that's just starting. Multiple Craft or Profession skills might be handy (say, to evaluate your newest weaponsmith, or know how to handle farming issues).
Skills should be used primarily for adventure design, I think.
Regular background stuff works better as an attribute check. Running a kingdom already takes up plenty of time if you want to run it well and memorably, so it's good to simplify. If you want to add skill checks, come up with situations where they might be useful, and toss the PCs into them...
The thing with rulers and counsellors is that what they have to do isn't usually summed up in any one skill, or even any several skills.
You right but I guess it's always the same for everything in a tabletop rpg, as the rule system has to modelize the "reality" it's still always an approximation. Strength isn't the only stat needed to touch someone in reality, right?
So you right, even several skills would be far from sum up a whole kingdom role. But it's more a matter of gameplay that push me to change those rules. With current rules, any single character could find a good place to be efficient in a kingdom role, whatever the background, the skills, the class. I guess I see why the rules are done this way, but I don't want such vision in my campaign. I want that those roles needs personal investment, and it has to be chosen in weaking other skills. I want that class and skills limit the bonus.
With the current system, a Paladin with a headband of alluring can be a really good ruler... he can also be a really good general and a fine high priest. Ok, it seems fine... But he can be also a great Magister... what?!?
That's why I want Skills, BAB, Spellcaster levels inside of those bonus calculation. I don't want any weaky precious pumba bard as a good General, just because high Charisma is enough. So the rule has to be deeper on this topic.
Rathendar has a really simple solution (creating dedicated skills) and I kind of like its simplicity, but I'd rather have a system in which ruling capacities can be helpful also in adventuring, and it doesn't weight a class in front of another one for each roles...
I run two Kingmakers, and one is led by a fighter (CHA 13) and the other by a druid (CHA 12). We have players in the group that have far better CHA bonuses, but we all agreed that it was not just the ++++ that counted, it was the playing. And sure, their kingdom has grown slightly less because of that, but does that really matter? You don't have to break the game, you have to have fun :)
((In fact, the fighter started with CHA 10, and has put his point from level 8 into CHA because it made sense. He even owns a headband of Charisma, exactly for that reason. Not to go from STR 19 to 20, but to serve the kingdom that relied on him. EPIC!
The druid is now also wearing a headband of charisma instead of the headband of wisdom (which he wanted soooo much more) because he wanted to be a grand leader, and realised he was not *that* charismatic. EPIC strikes again!))
I run two Kingmakers, and one is led by a fighter (CHA 13) and the other by a druid (CHA 12). We have players in the group that have far better CHA bonuses, but we all agreed that it was not just the ++++ that counted, it was the playing. And sure, their kingdom has grown slightly less because of that, but does that really matter? You don't have to break the game, you have to have fun :)
Then I guess my players are somewhere between yours and power gamers. They still bothers a lot about background and storytelling but still I guess you can't stop them trying somehow to break the game or at least find the best way to get maximum bonus. Ask them to gave logical roles instead of optimized role would be similar to ask them to let the Rogue roll the disable device check even if the Alchemist has a better skill bonus because "it has to be the Rogue".
Plus the system has to reflect your vision of the game otherwise you don't need to keep it. After all, all those kingdom things can be played just in a descriptive way, in telling month by month "ok ur population is growing" or "the treasure is running low" or "you got a peasant rebellion"... So i won't use Charisma if it's not (only) charisma in my vision. I change the rules or I just tells about the kingdom in a freestyle way.
Ask them to gave logical roles instead of optimized role would be similar to ask them to let the Rogue roll the disable device check even if the Alchemist has a better skill bonus because "it has to be the Rogue".
Well, in my game it would be both of them argueing about who gets to do it. This would be solved in game though, not "I'm the rogue!" or "I have higher skill bonus!".
They would say "You broke the last trap, my turn." or "Man, this looks difficult. Want to help?" or "Let's draw straws, coz I don't want to blow up everyone again.." :DYou wouldn't believe how many times the gnome sorcerer has rolled Knowledge (Arcana) even though he sucks at it, and the alchemist saying "I'm busy doing something else man.." :)
Not exactly true. After some years, the kingdom stat bonuses from CHA or WIS become quite obsolete. The buildings' bonuses, the quest bonuses, etc etc will far outweigh them.
Don't fix it until you feel it's broken, trust me :)
Also, with a big kingdom, you have advisors and flunkies and secretaries for most of the mundane skill checks. Your job as ruler is to figure out which advisor to trust, and which people to promote, not to handle the minutia yourself.