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Over on this thread, I got the following answer to my question regarding Serpentfolk's name for themselves on Golarion:
In the Ecology of the Serpentfolk (Serpent's Skull part 1), the "serpentfolk" are described in the first sentence with quotations, as if that is not possibly what they call themselves in the native Aklo tongue. But then, it never does reveal what serpentfolk call themselves. Do they have a name for themselves?They do. We haven't revealed what that name is, and that article would have been the best time to do so, so that ship's more or less sailed and we probably won't reveal (or, indeed, INVENT) that name anytime soon as a result.
This would have been covered in the Ecology article by Clinton Boomer, but sadly was overlooked, and will likely not be returned to for a very long time to come. I can't wait, since I am desperately in need of a name for this race. It seems to me, based on their culture of high-mindedness and superb ego, the word, "serpentfolk" would be deemed offensive, slur, or otherwise considered vulgar to them.
Suggestions for this race name is now open. Brownie points to anyone who gets a Paizonian to join the discussion, and even more if Clinton Boomer is brought in to comment. :P ;)
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Yar!
I agree that something that alludes to their perceived superiority is appropriate. The other thing to consider is that "serpentfolk" are telepathic. Their name for themselves may not even be a word, but a feeling, or a mix of emotions and mental images of grandeur.
Though something less abstract taken from what I read from the SS AP could be something like "The True People" or "Divinity of the Flesh" or something like that. If I remember correctly (I'm at work, so no reference material handy atm) the AP often has them refered to as "truefolk" or something like that.
*shrugs*
I prefer the empathic projection of grandeur as their racial name for themselves over an actual word myself.
~P
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They call themselves "People." Everyone else is "Food" or "Slaves" or "Clever meat animals"
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Did somebody say serpentfolk?
Anywho, I believe at one point (not sure exactly) they are referred to as 'Ydersians', taking their name from their god and supposed creator. I will peruse my pdfs to see which book it is referenced in.
EDIT: Apologies, I couldn't find it. Disregard my statement (unless you like it that is). And the good Mr. Pirate had some wonderful ideas that really expressed the feel of the serpentfolk. I should know, they're my favourite thing in all of pathfinder.
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I only avoid Ydersians, because I feel their culture could and should embody much more than that (and it's part of some adventure assumptions for a campaign of mine), especially since Ydersius is not always considered the progenitor or creator-god of their species, and serpentfolk should have a diverse culture outside of a monotheistic standard.
I love this input. Thanks to all of you. I am leaning toward describing them with an Aklo word, which is a loose translation between what they might say about themselves in Common, and their own telepathic references to themselves ("People" being the most likely reference when used with one another).
Serpentfolk (known as Tir-Khan-Sakvuil in Aklo, which roughly translates to "The True Blood Folk" in Common, from their own telepathic language) - thoughts?
I personally liked 'Divinity of the Flesh', but lets see if we can brainstorm some other ideas:
I know you don't like Ydersians, but what you could do, seeing as they would most likely only refer to other serpentfolk as 'people', is have them split into several subcultures that take their name from what deity they worship. There could be the more populous Ydersians, the 'Abraxians' (i.e. those who worship Abraxas), the second largest subgroup, talented in magic, who share a violent hatred for the followers of Ydersius, and the 'Geryonites' (worshippers of Geryon), who, although few in number compared to the other groups, are much more orderly and organized, making their homes in subterranean swamps and marshes. There could even be groups who worship the Great Old Ones/Elder Gods or the various Protean lords, called the 'Yigites' (after the Great Old One Yig, patron of the Serpent People from the Cthulhu Mythos) and the 'Maelstromi' or 'Proteasians' respectively. These latter two groups would have a much higher propensity to be non-evil, sometimes even straying into good.
[Shameless Plug] You should also take a look at my converted Call of Cthulhu d20 Serpent People if you're a fan of 'classic' serpentfolk.[/Shameless Plug]
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Specifically, this is for this thread's adventure idea, which veers substantially from any Call of Cthulhu themes. In fact, the worship of the outer-planes beings is minimal in the adventure, compared to the more expansive themes of fantasy-tech, psionics, and some other more unique elements, including real-life beings worshiped as divine beings.
Jeff, what source are you talking about? Valusians sounds curiously like Valashaians of southernmost Tian Xia - another element in my own adventure arc. Perhaps it was an inspiration for their name.
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It's from the works of Robert E. Howard, creator of Conan the Barbarian, from whence the the Serpent People originate.
And although I have not read through the entirety of your campaign arc, it seems really quite original and well-written. Unfortunately, it's really not my cup of tea, not because of it's themes, but because of the themes you're not using. I'm a huge fan of the whole cthulhu-esque, elder being, alien kind of serpentfolk from the Conan and Lovecraft stories, and without those themes, they're really just snake-y lizardfolk. I will not deter you from your planned course, for you have obviously put a lot of work and love into it, but I just feel as if you're missing out on a lot of great flavour.
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Specifically, this is for this thread's adventure idea, which veers substantially from any Call of Cthulhu themes. In fact, the worship of the outer-planes beings is minimal in the adventure, compared to the more expansive themes of fantasy-tech, psionics, and some other more unique elements, including real-life beings worshiped as divine beings.
Jeff, what source are you talking about? Valusians sounds curiously like Valashaians of southernmost Tian Xia - another element in my own adventure arc. Perhaps it was an inspiration for their name.
Valusia was the name of the prehistoric continent that the serpent folk ruled in Robert E Howard and his imitators (Kull the Conqueror may mention it first). It was in the vicinity of what is now the Mediterranean. It is possible that it inspired the name Valashmai in Tian Xia, but I don't know... they are both jungly, non-human dominated regions...
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Sssslyðerinssss.
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I think that for a huge number of gamers -- perhaps most gamers (or at least Grognards), they are . They've always been Yuan Ti; they'll always be Yuan Ti.
"Snake Man" is just dumb.
"Serpent Folk" is the same as "Snake Man."
But since Paizo can't call 'em Yuan Ti, I think Ydersian is pretty solid.
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Other D&D options.
Sarrukh, creator race on the realms but the name sounds cool.
Dyris. serpent folk in the Labyrinth of Madness.
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I'm going to guess Sleestak and Silurian are right out, then? >_>
'Tis true. In fact, all IP names are out on this one. Again, it seems silly to me to name an entire race after a single set of deity-worshipers, especially in the context I am going for. Ydersius was not the end-all, be-all of Serpentfolk abroad. He was just a climactic chapter element, and not all serpentfolk should need to worship him, since he is not a creator deity for their race. In fact, everything I have read suggests that Ydersius was actually a serpentfolk before becoming a deity, suggesting that they were already created, and may have had previous or other pantheon deities.
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I'm not saying all serpentfolk should or do worship him, but a lot of their shown culture did revolve around him. I've also never read anything saying he was an ascended mortal. Again, your campaign, you can do what you want, but I'm not sure where you're getting your info. That's not an insult, if you could point me towards material I haven't read it'd be greatly appreciated, but if you're only going off the ecology article in Souls for Smuggler's Shiv, I don't remember anything like that in there.
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Children of Yig?
Yig was a serpent themed god in the Mythos...so it would seem appropriate to have a call back to their old pulp origins.
Might try trawling the ufology literature...there are a lot of similarities between the "reptoids" and serpentfolk
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I'm not good with names, even though I managed to name a few races on my homebrew campaign world.
One race is deep sea fish folk, the other is pirahnafolk, two are descendants of an ancient winged humanoid race that branched off on differing paths, and the last are spiderfolk.
How do you imagine the name should sound in Aklo? Actually, what should Aklo even sound like in Golarion?
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I'm not saying all serpentfolk should or do worship him, but a lot of their shown culture did revolve around him. I've also never read anything saying he was an ascended mortal. Again, your campaign, you can do what you want, but I'm not sure where you're getting your info. That's not an insult, if you could point me towards material I haven't read it'd be greatly appreciated, but if you're only going off the ecology article in Souls for Smuggler's Shiv, I don't remember anything like that in there.
Book 6 of Serpent Skull has information on Ydersius, including his ascension to godhood, I do believe. I got some clarification from James Jacobs: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=626?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#31293
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Children of Yig?
Yig was a serpent themed god in the Mythos...so it would seem appropriate to have a call back to their old pulp origins.
Might try trawling the ufology literature...there are a lot of similarities between the "reptoids" and serpentfolk
Of course, I am well-versed in a lot of ufology stuff on reptilians, which has helped shape the course of this adventure arc. :) It's very interesting, even if only hypothetically.
Children of Yig is an interesting recommendation - from which mythos, specifically? The Conan mythos mentioned above?
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Conan/Cthulhu, actually. I'll need to go check up on that book, thanks.
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Just so it's out there - my adventure idea will not completely stray from the Yuan-Ti/Conan mythos, since there will definitely be portions where the blood-cults of the serpent, shape-changing and cross-blooded characters/creatures, and even a fanatic following of the most diabolical and crazed devotees (snake worshipers, and serpentfolk manipulators) will all find their place in the adventure at some point. These themes do not overrun the adventure's themes, but they are definitely there in smaller portions, since these things are story elements I have enjoyed in gaming over the years as well. I just wanted to give the whole thing a completely new twist.
In any case, no matter what my adventure goals (and subtracting the notion of "Ydersians" who do not worship Ydersius, since that really makes zero sense for me), the name for this race is the most important goal of all. I truly appreciate everyone's input here - it is a big help when trying to look outside the box for new ideas. Not to mention, I know this element of this creature is something that others might want to have defined as well, so it's important across the board. :)
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Tying the serpentfolk to any of the many serpent-figures in real world mythology could be one place to mind for interesting names;
Norse - Jormungandr (or Nidhogg?)
Celts - Cromm Cruiach
Romans / Greeks - Typhon
Babylonians - Tiamat
Egyptians - Apophis / Apep
Voodoo - Damballah or Ayida-Ouedo
Central American - Quetzalcoatl
Northern Native American - Unktehi / Uktena / Uncegila
Tying one or more of these 'primal darkness / chaos serpents that devour the sun' (like Tiamat or Apophis), or colorful serpents of fertility, rain and creativity (Damballah, Uktena, Quetzalcoutl) together into a single deity (or pair of opposed dieties?, or different aspects of a single god), could be one way to go.
Tying any (or several!) of these themes into the background of your serpentfolk allows you to go pillage those various cultures language / history sites to come up with cool-sounding words from Babylonian, Egyptian, Norse, Roman, etc. sources.
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Set, what does Cromm Cruiach (hunchbacked Crom) have to do with serpents? He might be the god worshipped in Gaul called Dispater by Caesar, and have some presence in a certain Hyborian Age, but so far as I know has nothing to do with snakes...
(This isn't sarcasm, just mystification). I am aware of an association with Cailleach in Britain and the water serpent of Ireland, the Caoranach.
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Set, what does Cromm Cruiach (hunchbacked Crom) have to do with serpents?
Apparently nothing, according to Wikipedia. I may have just made that all up based on some faulty recollection of him being associated with a bent/twisted/crooked serpent-dragon-thing. Less 'serpent-dragon-thing' and more 'old dude with a hunch back,' I guess.
Typhon's not technically a snake, either, although it's got snake-bits.
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To be honest, the bits about the snake divinities is actually helpful (even the healthy debate). Some, like Quetzalcoatl, Tiamat, and Apep, were already on my possible list.... for real semi-divine or Mythic Annunaki beings. Marduk, Enki, and several others are on the list, even though they are going to be more re-interpreted in the Annunaki thread than adhering strictly to any real-world historical dogma. Someone has to show up in these sky-ships full of powerful otherworldly beings.....!
What other serpent myths do we have? I can think of the cosmic serpent, Ouroboros, and I also include the First World being (the Elder, Imbrex) in such a group, and an archdevil, Geryon, which are both snake-like/reptilian powerful figures in the campaign setting.
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Just call them Nagas.
or yuan ti, but that would be copyright infringement
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The Sanskrit word used for intelligent snakes who were not Naga was Sarpa, if anyone is interested... Both words can be used for snakes in general (nagas are specifically cobras, whereas I believe sarpas are other snakes). Sarpas are more associated with venom than nagas, however.
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Just some food for thought.
serpent (n.) Look up serpent at Dictionary.com
c.1300, "limbless reptile," also "tempter in Gen. iii:1-5," from Old French sarpent, from Latin serpentem (nominative serpens) "snake," from present participle of serpere "to creep," from PIE *serp- (cf. Sanskrit sarpati "creeps," sarpah "serpent;" Greek herpein "to creep," herpeton "serpent;" Albanian garper "serpent").
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Sarpah is actually a really decent and reasonable choice, I think. In any case, I think what we would be defining would be the word used in any given language to define a race that simply thinks of itself as "people" without the comparative equality to humankind to worry about how that might get confusing for them in their silly audible noise-communication.
Perhaps Sarpah (or Sarpati; sounds feminine to me) is the Vudrani word (and the most precise and respectful when acknowledging them in person), which is the root of Taldane's "serpent." In Tian Xia, it could perhaps be Jian-Zi (Orochi-bito in Minkaian), and my earlier suggestions might be in Aklo or another language, while in their own telepathic communication, they are simple "people" or "folk" (with the subtle, underlying emphasis on the fact that they stand on two legs, again under-handing naga-kind like any other race).
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I think that for a huge number of gamers -- perhaps most gamers (or at least Grognards), they are . They've always been Yuan Ti; they'll always be Yuan Ti.
Yuan-ti call themselves "vrael olo" (which means "favored ones").
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Yuan-ti call themselves "vrael olo" (which means "favored ones").I think that for a huge number of gamers -- perhaps most gamers (or at least Grognards), they are . They've always been Yuan Ti; they'll always be Yuan Ti.
*Very* good suggestion. Now, in D&D, Yuan-ti had their own language - but in PF, Serpentfolk have a telepathic, non-verbal language, and speak Aklo, Common, Draconic, and Undercommon. I would assume the above phrase is Aklo or Undercommon - though, given their high-mindedness, I would be reluctant to guess Undercommon. Aklo, Draconic, or a mixture.
In my campaign, I have been presenting Annunaki as a language used by Annunaki-blooded critters (nagas, serpentfolk, [a select few] dragons, and others), like an ancient root dialect used during the early centuries of the Serpent Empires.
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Aklo is probably their first verbal language, Undercommon is for dealing with lesser races.
In other campaigns, Anunnaki, I don't think it means something reptilian, just a Mesopotamian word for ''gods'' or outsiders, could be used for that type of creatures in Ninshabur, or Unther (Forgotten Realms), or Sulm (Greyhawk).
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Yar!
... Anunnaki, I don't think it means something reptilian, just a Mesopotamian word for ''gods'' ...
Given the Serpentfolk tenancy for narcissism and the subjugation of other races, I'd say that is a pretty good word then for how they would describe themselves to other races who can't handle telepathy.
~P
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Again, my two cents. I'm not entirely sure why, and I know this probably isn't very helpful or based in any real fact, but I always imagined that, at the height of their empire, the serpentfolk (and to a lesser extent, the Azlanti) had a sort of Roman-ish vibe going, particularly their military, though heavily influenced by the Cthulhu/Conan alien wizard feel. The imagery of an anthropomorphic snake wearing the garb of a roman senator or legionary always just seemed cool and right to me, but that may be due to my subconscious association of Imperial Rome with the height of western culture. Again, my two cents.
EDIT: That, and the Romans definitely had a thing for narcissism and the subjugation of other races.
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Aklo is probably their first verbal language, Undercommon is for dealing with lesser races.
Anunnaki, I don't think it means something reptilian, just a Mesopotamian word for ''gods'' or outsiders
"Those, who, from [the] heaven[/s] [to Earth], come/came" (the ancestral people came down out of the skies.)
Agreed on Aklo/Undercommon. ;)
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Thanks to everyone for the input. I think I have enough insights to try and make it all line up. :) Best wishes to all of you and yours!
'The Crime Ring' (1st level) is nearing completion. I should have it up before the end of July. For now, I am going to stop keeping an eye on this thread - but if you want to add more, or see what it's for, make sure to check out the other thread about my adventure.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9dz?Campaign-Arc-Idea-POSTSerpents-Skull-AP Thanks again.