Wow. Ship to ship battles suck!

[Odraude]

Gotta agree with brvheart there. Admittedly, I'd be okay with NPCs manning the siege weapons while I shoot something with my arrows. Also, imagine the concentration check a wizard has to make against a readied ballista to the face... priceless :)

[ferrinwulf]

The same could be said for firing a crossbow or any ranged weapon in that case. The light Balista has zero time to reload which makes it the same as any ranged weapon such as a bow....

I have you trained in my sights with by bow, i hit, oh you have moved I will have to aim again, darn thats a whole round wasted whilst I re-aim my bow.

If you have the feats and the extra manpower then you can do the same for any of the siege weapons as well so long as they take the aim time to zero.

If you are using you're house rule than it should also be appling to ALL ranged weapons as well then.

[BzAli]

brvheart wrote:

Still might make more economical sense to have the entire crew firing crossbows and doing almost as much damage and much cheaper on the ammunition! You would also now have your archers also for attacking enemy ships. Also don't have to worry about it coming from the bow or the stern.

Untill you figure in hardness. For a wooden ship with hardness 5, it's very important if you have 4 sailors firing 1d10 crossbows, or if the same four sailors fire a 4d8 ballista!

[brvheart]

@ferrinwulf I wasn't house ruling it, was more referring to the heavy ballista that does have a 1 full round re-aim. With 0 aiming time them there is not an issue.

@BzAli I was referring to attacking the Manticore or any creature w/o hardness. Better to save to expensive bolts for when hardness is an issue like attacking the ship. How hard is it to have the ballista crews have light crossbows that they can pick up and fire when needed? You could also have them fire their light ballistae one round and then fire their light crossbows the next round at the crew instead of reloading. It is nice to have options.

[BzAli]

brvheart wrote:

@BzAli I was referring to attacking the Manticore or any creature w/o hardness. Better to save to expensive bolts for when hardness is an issue like attacking the ship. How hard is it to have the ballista crews have light crossbows that they can pick up and fire when needed? You could also have them fire their light ballistae one round and then fire their light crossbows the next round at the crew instead of reloading. It is nice to have options.

That sounds fair. I hadn't considered switching between the weapons... I know, silly me :).

[FrankManic]

I've been working on this.

Military ships solve the fireball problem by having hoardings they throw up along the entire length of both decks. The front facing is covered in cloth or some such and soaked through with sea water prior to combat. Thus the crew is in cover during most of the approach, firing arabalest and hand gonnes through covered ports.

Catapults and siege engines are used to make high angle attacks and are fitted out with all kinds of exotic munitions - fire, explosive, bolts that summon critters. Other kinds of torsion weapons are used. A Polybolos is a variation on a ballista that uses a chain drive attached to a windlass to create a semi automatic ballista. The windlass is operated constantly by several men and bolts are fed in while the weapon recharges. The rate of fire is considerable.

Any critter immune to bludgeoning damage and small enough to fit in a clay pot is liable to find itself used as a living munition.

Cannons, bombards really, are used, but typically only a few on the very largest ships. They're just too heavy for most ships to carry in substantial numbers. That said - A 5lb ball of iron can stand a lot of enchantment. Alternately - You can just fire iron elementals at the enemy. The final somatic component of the summoning is firing the cannon. I've decided that Golarion is about 1450-1500 in terms of cannon technology. They exist, they work, but they're neither very powerful nor very accurate compared to what comes later. Alkenstar is always a generation ahead with gunpowder weapons.

Smaller gonnes - Basically swivel guns, are used as anti-personnel weapons at close range. Hand gonnes are also used - The ranged touch attack, smoke, shock value, and generally high damage output make them useful on seas where you might need anti-airship fire or to punch holes in a dragon-turtle.

Rockets are also used. IRL military rockets have been in use continually for more than a thousand years. In Golarion various sizes are utlized and many ships that can afford them mount small Hwacha style rocket arrays. Being little more than a capped iron tube filled with powder they're relatively inexpensive and can match wizards for range. They're often loaded with incendiaries and have a tendency to explode on the rare occasions that they hit something.

Sails are likewise soaked through with water where possible and treated with spells when available. "Unburning Sails" that are enchanted to extinguish themselves are a thing. Many main-line fleet combat ships use sweeps or magical propulsion once they've closed to engagement range.

Waterborne druids and wizards have spells that can mend ships on the fly or rip them apart, provided they can get close enough. Pirates and Navy alike carry teams of harpies, Erinyes, pegasus or griffon cavalry, manticores, anything that flies and arm them with firepots, darts, and other weapons. Other ships have teams of swimming, water breathing crew that can attack from below the waterline with mines, spells, or the simple expedient of a drill.

Defending against flying creatures are crossbowmen in the rigging. Defending against swimming creatures are other combat divers, summoned elementals, and trailing nets hung with hooks.

And that's not even getting into airships, sea elf semi-submersibles (Spar Torpedoes!), ironclads, golem-propulsion wet submarines, shark cavalry, and Frost Giants crewing massive ice-berg longships.

Basically - I want to take full advantage of the fantastic nature of the setting. Rather than tacking magic on and having monsters sitting around in caves waiting to be slaughtered I want to make them as integral to daily life as technology is in our world.

[vikingson]

FrankManic wrote:

I've been working on this.

Military ships solve the fireball problem by having hoardings they throw up along the entire length of both decks. The front facing is covered in cloth or some such and soaked through with sea water prior to combat. Thus the crew is in cover during most of the approach, firing arabalest and hand gonnes through covered ports.

Right.... Let me offer some criticism or pointed questions :

Now, how does anyone cover up the exposed rigging (sails, hempen-ropes covered with tar or oils for conservation, dried out wood )? Burning cordage, sails and spars dropping onto the deck will readily turn stuff into buring stuff (especially if the crew is carrying rockets etc^^). And without rigging.. not much movement anymore ?

Also putting up a (wet !) tent on deck will
a) make sailing like actually trimming the sails, shifting the sheets and other "need to see the rigging" work nigh impossible. Where is our topsail at ? Why are we drifting to leeward ?
b) will massively affect the trim and sailing ability of any ship. Try setting a bimini sail in any kind of wind beyond Beaufort 3 ?
c) not really helpful if anyone is smart enough to "bomb" the bowsprite with its sails and rigging, and has the flames racing backwards through the ship. Which again, is likely a massive pyre with dry wood, lots of tar and oakum caulkings, lacquered wood.... Same goes for masttops.

Wooden ships will burn, if you keep angling that way.....

FrankManic wrote:

Catapults and siege engines are used to make high angle attacks and are fitted out with all kinds of exotic munitions - fire, explosive, bolts that summon critters. Other kinds of torsion weapons are used. A Polybolos is a variation on a ballista that uses a chain drive attached to a windlass to create a semi automatic ballista. The windlass is operated constantly by several men and bolts are fed in while the weapon recharges. The rate of fire is considerable. ...

uhh, Mythbusters ? A Polybolos is difficult to maintain, difficult to build (accuracy issues for the chainlink, mechanism; Modern cutting tools and metalworking is a 18th-19th century invention : required and made possible by steam engines) , and keep a huge supply of ballista bolts ready (many of those fired will drop in the sea, others will be bend and splintered ). 10gp each, 10 pounds each. Stocking up on those will seriously carve into one's plunder. If anyone actually takes stock of the ammunition.... It is also doubtful if an actual Polybolos was build befor ethe 19th century.

besides, crew will have fun "derusting" the ballista's component or keeping it well oiled. There is a very good reason why ship cannons where done in bronze^^. I would also like to see the Polybolos ballista in action and reloading on a swerving and rocking ship in any kind of waves ?

As a hint for "swarm-missiles" try hurling rotgrubs in slabs of meat^^ Aquatic snakes suspended in Saltwater (funneled in just before firing) should also work well. But an amphora filled with wax or strong alcohol with a fuse is far more efficient (even if the ship is fireproof, usually the crew is not !). And there we are, back at burning things btw, how much does special catapult ammunition cost ? In comparison to scrolls....

FrankManic wrote:

Rockets are also used. IRL military rockets have been in use continually for more than a thousand years. In Golarion various sizes are utlized and many ships that can...

You are hopefully aware that "Military rockets" have neither been accurate enough, nevermind sufficiently destructive , for any kind of - other than morale - battlefield use until WW II ? Since you are quoting RL.

And even then, in the 20th century, it took some cutting edge pioneering use of radio guided bombs (German), Salvo Fire (USSR) or sub-surface mortaring (UK "Hedgehog" system ) for any useful results ?

Also : rockets' firetrails (aka "backblast") is a fantastically efficient way to set fire to your own vessel.

And I just don't see what all of these stuff will do, that a couple of cheaply produced Fireball scrolls cannot top ? In an emergency substitute Acid for Fire. Cover you ship with Silent Images or better Illusions

[Shaun]

Regarding dropping ship-to-ship combats (and not being interested in bothering with "Fire as She Bears") from the game, I'm thinking about some ideas for what to do.

I want to continue to use the 3 opposed sailing checks for evasion & pursuit; that's easy and still makes use of the skill. I will also continue to roll the dice to determine ship heading and relative distance for shipboard combat. That's in the book and it's easy to do.

Still I want to roll some damage for the ship any time that it's fighting another ship that bears weapons that could hurt it. What would the best way to do this be in the abstract? I was thinking about rolling one die for each weapon that the opposing ship mounts and basically tell them "Over the course of the battle, your boat took X amount of damage." My question would be which would be the bext dice for this? This is more a flavor thing and to make sure craft: ships sees some use and maybe require them to get some repairs at some point, in the agregate. It's not meant to actually threaten them outside of fighting a ship-of-the-line or something that really outguns them.

Also, crew casualties. How do people determine these? My game is roleplay heavy, and all of the NPC crewmatess have personalities, they're not numbers. I don't want to say: "3 died, 3 joined from the other ship." I do want to work out a system where I roll for who gets injured. I think that I will only use it if the crew of the ship they're fighting outnumbers their crew. For every 2 over, maybe give the dice roll a +1 modifier. Has anyone come up with a system to figure this out?

[vikingson]

BzAli wrote:

I'm planning for military ships in my campaign to have a onboard ships wizard, specialized in counterspelling.

works only if

a) the wizard can see the spell coming (meet the caster with "Vanish" and casting from an unexpected angle )
and
b) stuff like illusions etc. are heinously difficult to counterspell

c) have fun with summoned creatures.

d) face spells not in your repertoire (rain of frogs on the afterdeck)

Fireball first, Fireball last, I guess^^

[molten_dragon]

Ravingdork wrote:

My players and I finally broke into true ship to ship battle rules yesterday with their Man's Promise and Dominator going up against the Deathknell.

I've never seen more dreadful, mind-numbingly lousy mechanic design is my life.

The Man's Promise possesses 800 HP, while the Dominator and the Deathknell each have 1620 HP.

Ballistas and catapults just don't hold up against those kinds of hit points. The Dominator got a crit with its catapult on the Deathknell for, wait for it, a whipping 38 damage. Then they broadsided it for 138 damage using the quick barrage rules.

However, said barrage only has a 25% chance of hitting, meaning it would take 40 such barrages from the Dominator to sink the Deathknell.

We all said "screw this, we don't won't to be here all night," and started boarding actions.

What did we miss? How is ship combat supposed to be anything other than a mind-numbing slug fest? Why include them at all if the rules are going to be THAT boring, rather than just encouraging the much more fast paced and exciting boarding actions?

I didn't like the ship-to-ship combat rules either, so I made some major changes to them.

For one, my players and I all wanted black powder weapons, so I added them, and the ships are armed with cannons rather than ballistas and catapults. That helps with the amount of damage that can be dealt.

I also broke each ship up into 20-foot sections on each side and gave each one separate hit points. So the average sailing ship is around 100 feet long, so 5 sections on each side, for a total of 10, each of which has 162 hit points. And if 2 sections go to 0 hit points, the ship begins to sink. So assuming a broadside of 10 cannons, if all hit, they'll take out one section. Masts, rudders, and enemy cannons all have hit points and are valid targets to shoot at (which is mostly what my players do, since they're rarely trying to sink a ship). This has worked out pretty well for us so far.

[deathbydice]

Current bunch of players always go straight for the rigging, trying to cripple enemy propulsion - either to capture or to escape themselves. ANd usually merchantman can't really see the motivation in being slaughtered for a cargo that is usually not theirs.

But yes, battering down a hull is hard work (and mostly it seems for the actual navies ).

The PCs also hate having to take the extra proficiency (by Feat) for the siege weapons

[narboots]

My DM always asks us if we would like the tactical map or story driven fight. This way we can switch it up and keep each encounter fresh while giving the guys who love miniature tactical combat chances to do that as well. I can see how its not for everyone but I actually enjoy it.