I know. I wanted to fix it too. But I had to stat out my new blue-eyed cavalier first...^^
B-blue Eyes White Knight?
Joking, joking xP
And Hidden Blade- one look and I just feel this is way too broken an ability, for a full BAB sneak attacker. Automatic enabler? On potential two-weapon, 8attacks/round fighter?
40d6 extra damage potential...
...
ok I see where you're getting at, though 2 things to keep in mind is that they also got dropped to light armor proficiency and their ki pool is restricted for ninja talent use(though the extra proficiencies and skill points help). I agree on the challenge strike ability though, having their sneak attack restricted to the target of their challenge helps loads. What are your thoughts on resolve? I rather liked renewed resolve myself (though if it gets scrapped I suppose it could be slapped onto a samurai/monk), so replacements should factor for that. Also I'll look into a supernatural order, though I feel like this class deserves it's own significant capstone. Even mimicking the same base mechanic as a enhanced spell could work, it just needs SOMETHING.
Well, this is a warrior filled with stealth, rather than an assassin filled with stealth, so they're still gonna fight a b#+@$ to death.
How about as a capstone, or some ability somewhere, the shogun's shadow gets an assassination challenge once per day. The target of this capstone challenge suffers from sneak attack damage from the first attack from the shogun every round, regardless of footedness, and in addition to this, as long as the shogun is using their assassination challenge, they are silent, unscryable, undetectable, silent, and just straight up unable to be sensed, by everyone who is not the target of the challenge?
It'd be like the shogun shadow becomes the embodiment of a phantasm, only perceptible by the target of their challenge, and holy crap are they scary. Hell you could throw in the target has to save against frightful presense to boot.
Phantasmal Slayer.
Right now the class looks rather Op, It gains reduced versons of the best ninja stuff while keeping most of the best samurai stuff. Challenge as it comes from as a samurai does not really fit the class, and I agree limiting sneak attack to only the target of the modified challenge would help. I will have to think more about what happens to do about this MCA.
With hidden blade perhaps it could apply only to the first attack made that turn.
I agree with Challenge being part of this class, because an assassin samurai sounds to me like a class specialized in single target slaughtering, which challenge does well. I would say that demanding challenge doesn't meet that same theme, but hey, that's already been snipped from the bill.
I've got some changes here, just need to finish them up, and then post it. I "think" everyone will like these changes. Another 10 minutes or so I think.
You rock Elghin
OK, here we go with the new revised version of the Shogun's Shadow.
These warriors fill a very specialized role that warlords often need to call upon, one of subtlety and finesse. Sometimes tentative situations call for a warrior whose loyalty is not impacted by abstract concepts of honor. When these situations occur, whether poisoning enemy commanders or slipping between forces on the battlefield to stab them in the eyes, the Shogun's Shadow is ready to mete out their orders.
Primary Class: Samurai.
Secondary Class: Ninja.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The shogun’s shadow may select six ninja skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal samurai class skills, one of which must be Stealth. The shogun’s shadow gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The shogun’s shadow is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the kama, katana, kusarigama, naginata, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. A shogun’s shadow is also proficient with light armor and bucklers.
Order: This is exactly like the samurai’s ability of the same name, except that a shogun's shadow can also choose the Order of the Hidden Blade or the order of the Mystic Soul.
Challenging Strike (Ex): This is exactly like the samurai’s challenge ability, except that whenever the target of his challenge is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The shogun’s shadow’s attacks deal extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the shogun’s shadow flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 7th level and every six shogun’s shadow levels thereafter, to a maximum of 4d6 at 19th level. Bonus damage from a challenging strike is precision damage. Should the shogun’s shadow score a critical hit with a challenging strike, this precision damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks do not count as a challenging strike.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a shogun’s shadow can make a challenging strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a challenging strike, even with the usual –4 penalty.
The shogun’s shadow must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot, and must be able to reach this spot. A shogun’s shadow cannot use challenging strike while striking a creature that has concealment.
Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a shogun's shadow gains the ninja's poison use ability. This ability and ninja tricks replace the samurai’s mount.
Ninja Tricks: Starting at 3rd level, a shogun’s shadow gains one ninja trick for which he qualifies. He gains one additional ninja trick every four shogun’s shadow levels he attains after 3rd. The shogun’s shadow counts his level as his ninja level for the purpose of qualifying for ninja tricks.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): At 4th level, a shogun’s shadow becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds 1/2 his shogun’s shadow level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them. This ability replaces mounted archer.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level, a shogun's shadow gains the ninja’s uncanny dodge ability. This ability replaces banner.
Deadly Challenge (Ex): At 12th level, whenever a shogun’s shadow declares a challenge, he can attempt to paralyze or slay his target once per day. As long as the target is within the threatened area of the shogun’s shadow and is either denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or flanked, the shogun’s shadow can make a single challenging strike with a melee weapon. If the strike successfully deals precision damage, the strike has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (shogun’s shadow’s choice). Studying the target is a standard action. If the target of such a deadly challenge fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the shogun’s shadow’s level + the shogun’s shadow’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, he dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the target is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the shogun’s shadow. If the target’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal challenging strike. Once the target has been denied his Dexterity bonus or is flanked for the 3 rounds, he must make the challenging strike within the next 3 rounds. If a deadly challenge is attempted and fails (the target makes her save) or if the shogun’s shadow does not launch the attack within the 3 rounds, 3 new rounds of consecutive denial of the target’s Dexterity bonus or flanking are required before he can attempt another deadly challenge.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 14th level, a shogun’s shadow gains the ninja’s improved uncanny dodge ability. This ability replaces greater banner.
Hidden Shadow (Su): At 20th level, a shogun’s shadow can, step into an area of dim light or darkness as a standard action. While within this area of dim light or darkness, the shogun’s shadow gains DR 5/— and becomes invisible as the greater invisibility spell. This effect continues as long as the shogun’s shadow remains in the area of dim light or darkness and 3 rounds following his departure of the area. In addition, a shogun’s shadow can use shadow step once per day. This ability replaces last stand.
Table: Shogun’s Shadow
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Challenging strike 1/day, order, poison use, resolve
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Order ability
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Ninja trick, weapon expertise
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Challenging strike 2/day, hidden weapons
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Uncanny dodge
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Challenging strike 3/day, ninja trick
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Order ability
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Greater resolve
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Challenging strike 4/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Honorable stand, ninja trick
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat, deadly challenge
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Challenging strike 5/day
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Improved uncanny dodge
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Ninja trick, order ability
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Challenging strike 6/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 True resolve
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Challenging strike 7/day, ninja trick
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Hidden shadow
A samurai who belongs to this order serves as both a secret police and assassin of his rightful master, whether it is a liege, warlord, or an institution. An order of the hidden blade samurai is held in high regard by criminal organizations and rulers who have a more “clandestine” methodology toward ruler-ship. Samurais of this order tend to be cautious, conniving, vicious, and willing to accomplish the tasks given them by their masters by any means possible. Samurais that multiclass with the rogues or ninja class typically choose this order, while samurais that take a prestige class that grants sneak attacks also tend toward this order. This order complements the shogun’s shadow multiclass archetype.
Edicts: The samurai must always be watchful for betrayal against his master, seek to destroy his master’s enemies, and endeavor to strengthen his position within his order. He must always keep his masters secrets, even unto death. The samurai must always follow the orders of his master, even when doing so may compromise his personal convictions. While difficult (though not impossible), the samurai can maintain an alignment different from that of his master.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the hidden blade samurai issues a challenge, he receives a +1 dodge bonus on Armor Class against all attacks made against him by the target of his challenge. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses. The samurai loses this bonus if he is ever denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (whether he actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or is flat-footed, or flanked.
Skills: An order of the hidden blade samurai adds Disguise (Cha) and Stealth (Dex) to his list of class skills. If he has ranks in the skill, he receives a bonus on the check equal to 1/2 his samurai level (minimum +1) as long as the check involves actions used to slay his master’s enemies.
Order Abilities: A samurai that belongs to the order of the hidden blade gains the following abilities as he increases in level.
No Trace (Ex): At 2nd level, the samurai learns to cover his tracks, remain hidden, and conceal his presence. The DC to track the samurai using the Survival skill increases by +1. In addition, his training gives him a +1 insight bonus on Disguise skill checks and on opposed Stealth checks whenever he is stationary and does not take any action for at least 1 round. Every four levels thereafter, the increase to Survival DCs and the bonuses on Disguise and opposed Stealth checks increase by 1.
Shadow Strike (Ex): At 8th level, whenever the target of the samurai’s challenge is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when the target is flanked, the samurai deals 1d6 points of precision damage on a successful attack. At 16th level, this precision damage increases to 2d6. When dealing this precision damage, the samurai only deals half the amount of extra damage he normally deals with his challenge ability. If the samurai already deals precision damage (whether from sneak attack or a similar ability), his precision damage increases by 1d6 at 8th level, and 2d6 at 16th level.
One with the Shadows (Ex): At 15th level, the samurai can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, and is wearing no armor, light armor, and not carrying a heavy load, the samurai can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
A samurai who belongs to this order has learned to tap into the mystic energies deep within his soul. An order of the mystic warrior samurai emphasizes inner strength, mental discipline, and control over one’s internal energy. Samurais of this order tend to have tremendous will power, mental fortitude, strong convictions, and are versatile when faced with difficulties. This order complements the shogun’s shadow multiclass archetype.
Edicts: The samurai must protect his sovereign lord, adhere to his lord’s dictates, and be ever watchful for those who seek to deceive his lord of himself. He must always place the will of is master before his own, strive to increase his mental discipline, and take every opportunity to further his lord’s cause.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the mystic warrior samurai issues a challenge, he receives a +1 bonus on attacks made against the target of his challenge. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses. Futhermore, should the order of the mystic warrior samurai use his Sense Motive skill to counter any feint made by the target of his challenge during combat, he gains a +2 bonus on all such skill checks until the end of the challenge.
Skills: An order of the mystic warrior samurai adds Acrobatics (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis) to his list of class skills. In addition, an order of the mystic warrior adds his Charisma modifier to any opposed Sense Motive skill checks made against a Bluff check.
Order Abilities: A samurai that belongs to the order of the mystic warrior gains the following abilities as he increases in level.
Ki Pool (Su): At 2nd level, the samurai gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the samurai’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 his samurai level + his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if he had a running start. At 10th level, he also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although he still cannot move farther than her speed allows).
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a samurai can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but he can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a samurai can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. The samurai can gain additional powers that consume points from his ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks (see Mystic Tricks below).
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the samurai possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, his samurai levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The samurai can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class he possesses that grants a ki pool.
Mystic Tricks (Ex): At 8th level, the samurai may select one ninja trick for which he qualifies (including a ki trick). If the samurai has the ninja trick ability, he can select a master trick for which he qualifies instead of a ninja trick once he reaches 11th level or higher. The samurai counts his class level as his ninja level for the purpose of any ninja trick or master trick he selects.
Renewed Resolve (Su): At 15th level, the samurai can spend 2 points from his ki pool to regain one use of his resolve ability.
why does order of the hidden blade gain stealth as one of his order skills? Is it so he gets it if he is a normal samurai?
Yes. The Orders are designed to be usable with normal Samurai, but are also complimentary to the MCA. But also, Stealth ties directly into the No Trace ability, as does disguise. And the name Order of the Hidden Blade sort of necessitates that it is somehow tied to being able to hide and disapear.
I was just checking because Shogun's shadow also grants stealth. But it looks pretty good. I liked how some of the more powerful ninja abilities were split between the two orders, also allows for much different builds.
#Shogun's Shadow: I like it. I particularly like that Hidden Weapons replaces Mounyed Archer - a nice thematic swap.
Definitely nice to see the Orders fleshing out the chassis with more options - the Orders are cool, just wishing there was a third order that kinda mashed the two together. One could always homebrew a melange I guess and the flavor for each order makes them quite distinct and internally consistent with the mechanics provided...
The order of the Mystic Warrior's Renewed Resolve is a nice touch!
Good job on that one EL! I always had a tough time time balancing the swaps for that one, but the MCA was begging to be made. Kudos!
Toasty brought it closer and you carried it home. Thanks to both of you!
No problem. It all about working together to come up with the best combination of swaps and new abilities.
Awesome job Elghin.
Thanks Toaster! It was you and Birdology that gave the framework. Anything on the Shogun's Shadow? I'll give until tonight, and then post the next one.
I think it looks good, though I wished the order of the mystic warrior was a bit less ninja-y and a bit more ki user focused. That way it could be recycled for a cavalier/monk down the line. Not necessary of course. Also, about the arcane venator, I noticed we didn't clarify that it's class features all ran off the same stat. As it stands it needs wis for regular casting and int for bonus spells and school abilities, not my cup of tea. I apologise for bringing up these old projects, but I was in the process of looking over the completed ones from this thread and making sure there weren't any big holes in some of them.
I'd suggest that Order of the Mystic Warrior have some sort of clause of if you're a multiclass Ninja/Samurai or Monk/Samurai for Ki Pool stacking. Likewise the Ninja Trick feature at level 8 will stack if you have levels in Ninja (is this intended?)
Also a bunch of the weapons listed (off the top of my head: short sword and shortbow) are martial weapons and thus don't need to be included.
Otherwise it looks good.
I think this guy suffers from the usual issue I have with a number of full BAB MCA's... that he feels like a 3/4 BAB class with his large number of abilities and options.
Also, I can't help but feel that challenge ability is... extremely powerful for this class.
Also, Deadly Challenge should have a lower DC. Like, half the shogun's level should be used in the calculation over the full thing- as is, he's going to be far better than an assassin at 'death attacks'. Also, the wording is rather confusing.
Alfray- this guy can't take Ninja levels, because the MCA includes Ninja. It will need such for monk, though.
@Raider
I meant in the case of someone taking the order with a normal samurai, unless that's barred somehow?
And good point otherwise, I kinda skimmed some of those abilities.
I think this guy suffers from the usual issue I have with a number of full BAB MCA's... that he feels like a 3/4 BAB class with his large number of abilities and options.
compared to a samurai, I don't think its excessive.
Also, I can't help but feel that challenge ability is... extremely powerful for this class.
rereading it I do agree, I thought the half challenge thing was a good way to balance that out, though it might be too much nerf...effective cavalier level -4(minimum 1)?
Also, Deadly Challenge should have a lower DC. Like, half the shogun's level should be used in the calculation over the full thing- as is, he's going to be far better than an assassin at 'death attacks'. Also, the wording is rather confusing.
agian I agree, I misread that as 1/2 level.
Alfray- this guy can't take Ninja levels, because the MCA includes Ninja. It will need such for monk, though.
which is why I thought a more generic mystic feel would work better, like having an ability to spend 4 ki to change the target of your challenge. If we ever do a samurai/monk (or open this to the Wushu Warrior) this would be a perfect starting point.
#Shogun's Shadow
RE Challenging Strike: Thanks Raider! Now, any suggetions or are you just going to leave it at "extremely powerful for this class"? :D
This is Samurai primary too guys. This is his signature ability.
With the damage, I had thought of making only max 3d6 instead of 4d6; 1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 9th, 3d6 at 17th (min 3 and max 18). Remember this is replacing a static amount of damage normally dealt by the cavalier. I think reducing it the above progression would work. Unlike Challenge, which he can deal that damage whenever he actually hits the target of his challenge (max 20 extra damage each attack at 20th level), challenging strike only works IF the target loses his Dex mod, so there is an additional condition for the damage to be dealt. This functions just like Challenge, except that the static damage is replaces with precision damage, with the loss of Dex bonus requirement.
Another thing, which may be simple, is just to change it to precision damage and keep the requirements for doing Sneak attack damage for his challange damage. However, that would still deal 1 point of precision damage per level of the MCA (max 20), though, that wouldn't necessarily be extra damage on every successful hit, unless the target is denied Dex bonus, flanked, or flat-footed.
RE Deadly Challenge: Fixed that to 1/2 level. What is confusing?
RE Ki Pool: It already says...
"If the samurai possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, his samurai levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The samurai can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class he possesses that grants a ki pool."
Why do we need to specify Monk or any other ki pool class?
Also, I had thought of making the Ki pool equal to 1/4 level + Cha instead of the standard 1/2 level + Cha. Thoughts?
RE Orders: Both orders ARE Samurai Orders, and can be used by any samurai. I have no problem chaning Order abilities. I assume you are thinking of removing the Mystic Trick ability, move Renewed Resolve to 8th, and add in your suggestion above at 15th? I'm fine with that.
Amend Challenge (Su): At 15th level, the samurai can spend 4 points from his ki pool to change the target of his challenge as a swift action.
niiiiice and it works with the Wushu warrior MCA.
Ijatsu strike (from the sword saint AT) replaces mount for a full 10d6 precision suite. I think you are saving some points here with the reduced 4d6. I don't think it is terribly overbalanced at all when you consider the pre existing AT (sword saint) and full BaB classes such as ranger.
And if you choose Hidden Blade Order you gain an extra +1d6 to max 5d6.
this issue with challenging strike is the way you wrote it they get full challenge any time in addition to sneak attack due to the first line...
This is exactly like the samurai’s challenge ability, except that whenever the target of his challenge is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
this looks like you're adding on to what the challenge does, not changing its method of activation. Maybe change it to "this is exactly like the Samurai's Challenge ability except that he can only deal the additional damage whenever the target of his challenge is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, in addition he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
@Raider - on this point:
I think this guy suffers from the usual issue I have with a number of full BAB MCA's... that he feels like a 3/4 BAB class with his large number of abilities and options.
Do you think he has more options than a Paladin or a Ranger? Personally I feel both of those could lose their spells, but they are still the benchmark for "full BAB with options" - obviously for me, even with combat feats, the fighter isn't.
How about compared to a regular Samurai - I don't think he's got that much extra unless you count the ninja tricks which definitely combine his combat prowess with sneaky versatility in new ways, not unlike spells I guess - but from looking over it again now, unless he has the Order of the Mystic Blade he can't choose ninja tricks that use ki...
I'm not actually seeing that this MCA has that many more options than the vanilla Samurai.
+1 to OSW logic.
In Rynjin's free form Class system he broke down all the class features and gave them a point buy value. This was done in 3.0 as well to help determine class power and balance. Fighters , clerics, and rogues have always been on the low end of the spectrum with paladins, monks, and Druids being on the higher end of things.
If this system can be fine tuned, it would be an invaluable asset to MCAs (seeing as how the premise is basically the same).
I will never understand people who rate clerics as being low in power level. They have 3/4 BAB, armour and full casting from a pretty good list of spells.
Actually, I was wrong, with Hidden Blade, he maxes at 6d6 sneak atack at 19th. Here's the revised Challenging Strike. REmember, the point of this is it replaces the normal Challenge damage with precision sneak attack damage with all the restrictions to the sneak attack ability, but it's focused soully on the target of his challenge, not just anyone.
Challenging Strike (Ex): This is exactly like the samurai’s challenge ability, except that the shogun’s shadow does not deal the normal extra damage against the target of his challenge. Instead, whenever the target of his challenge is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The shogun’s shadow’s attacks deal extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the shogun’s shadow flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 7th level and every six shogun’s shadow levels thereafter, to a maximum of 4d6 at 19th level. Bonus damage from a challenging strike is precision damage. Should the shogun’s shadow score a critical hit with a challenging strike, this precision damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks do not count as a challenging strike.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a shogun’s shadow can make a challenging strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a challenging strike, even with the usual –4 penalty.
The shogun’s shadow must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot, and must be able to reach this spot. A shogun’s shadow cannot use challenging strike while striking a creature that has concealment.
With the Mystic Warrior Order, we're going to change out Mystic Tricks, bring Renewed Resolve to 8th, and add in the Amend Challenge ability. Any thoughts on the Ki Pool, whether keeping it at 1/2 level + Cha modifier is good, or should it be reduced to 1/4 level + Cha mod?
@Birdology: I started this whole thing by trying to allocate points to abilities, but abandoned it for what we do.
I think Challenging Strike is fine now
hear hear
Yeah, while I occasionally point other threads to this freeform system (including Rynjin's thread I think) I think it's a little too cute and ignores a lot of hidden synergies and inbuilt faults of breaking down abilities into point values. So, yeah, MCA system works for me, mostly through the discussion and review process which is organic and experiential.
Point granted. I was referring to a pre determined reference for approved swap tables.
After all, that's what an archetype does: swap abilities for other abilities of like power. While a MCA swaps class abilities for other abilities of like power from a different class... Kinda.
Point granted. I was referring to a pre determined reference for approved swap tables.
After all, that's what an archetype does: swap abilities for other abilities of like power. While a MCA swaps class abilities for other abilities of like power from a different class... Kinda.
(Emphasis mine) I think you still make a good point Byrd. We've made more than a hundred of these now, and we do know, either intuitively or through trial and error or just looking at feats what some things are "worth".
Regardless of whether an imported secondary class' ability is tweaked (even into something unrecognisable from its original ability) or not, we still know what it is worth and the worth of what it is replacing.
Is it useful to go back through all the MCAs we've made and work out what we consider are relative swaps? Perhaps it is. It's not something I'm focused on right know, partly because of the time and effort involved, and partly because so many of the replacement abilities are really tweaked, and aren't isolated entities in and of themselves - the hidden synergies and inherent faults from where they originally came from as well as from where they end up - the art of balancing MCAs is just that - an art more than a science.
That's why I love you guy's work. It IS an art, and you all do masterful jobs with it.
*Late reply on the Challenging Strike*
I... Feel like replacing the Challenge ability is very weak when limited to the situational benefits of SA. You're taking an already situational ability, and limiting it to targets per day. I don't feel like that's a fair tradeoff.
I personally would change this to have 1 point of normal challenge damage per 4 levels (Or whenever they increase their sneak damage), so that there is 5-6 points of static damage per attack at 20th level, and then a situational burst of up to 6d6 SA damage. This averages the damage near the 20 standard, with the capacity to go as low as 12 and as high as 24 on situational hits, while still giving a damage perk to foes normally immune to SA or that prove very difficult to target with SA.
Another idea would be to give something to make SAing their challenge target easier, such as a +lvl or +½lvl bonus to bluff for the purpose of feint, and also feint feats.
@Raider - on this point:
I think this guy suffers from the usual issue I have with a number of full BAB MCA's... that he feels like a 3/4 BAB class with his large number of abilities and options.Do you think he has more options than a Paladin or a Ranger? Personally I feel both of those could lose their spells, but they are still the benchmark for "full BAB with options" - obviously for me, even with combat feats, the fighter isn't.
How about compared to a regular Samurai - I don't think he's got that much extra unless you count the ninja tricks which definitely combine his combat prowess with sneaky versatility in new ways, not unlike spells I guess - but from looking over it again now, unless he has the Order of the Mystic Blade he can't choose ninja tricks that use ki...
I'm not actually seeing that this MCA has that many more options than the vanilla Samurai.
We've had a similar conversation to this before, haven't we, on another MCA? With the result that the class got switched to 3/4 BAB, so I welcome the chance to pull it off again xP
Death Attack, Ninja Tricks, etc. etc. Wide range of skills, Sneak Attack. Better Saves, Skills.
At level 1, there is no question- this class takes the ninja and mugs it. Sneak attack, saves, and poison use are grabbed and shoved into the Cavalier.
The Mystic Warrior version, which is by far the stronger version- not even a ghost of a question, and frankly I'm concerned about how powerful it is for reg. samurai- is going to be beating anything but perhaps a raging barbarian on that full attack due to capacity for sneak abuse.
Even the 'weaker' Hidden Blade is still rather capable- must we give the regular cavalier sneak attack? And keep in mind- the only reason it can be -considered- weaker is the fact it can't self-haste itself.
(( Haven't you wondered why basically no core class with a full BAB can self-haste for that extra attack without hoop jumps? ))
He is too strong, the class is suffering from the fact it has full BAB balance-wise, and to top it off and answer a particular question of yours, OSW? Yes, he's got more options than the ranger. They're called Ninja Tricks and Ki Pool.
So yes- yes, in my opinion, this should be a 3/4 BAB class and the powers of the Mystic Warrior should be altered.
Raider: I disagree about 1st level. There's one thing you're forgetting. He's gaining sneak attack but losing a Full Level Animal Companion. Samurai have a POWERFUL companion that is equal to that of a druid with a narrower animal selection. That is a very powerful ability, having an ally that has its own set of actions per turn. I think it's a very fair trade to get poison use and ninja tricks.
In addition, the class isn't gaining sneak attack. It's replacing challenge with a version of sneak attack that is limited to a number of targets per day. It's losing a powerful limited use offense ability and replacing it with a significantly weakened version of another class's primary offense ability, and still is limited to times per day.
Honestly, to pick up skills and tricks, this class if giving up a LOT of offense. That 1d6 at level 1 is pretty powerful, but the class only gains 5-6d6 over the course of its levels, which sometimes lets the class deal damage like a normal samurai. 18 average bonus damage at level 20 when they can SA is not as good as 20 constant damage. They're also losing out on all the possible damage that their animal companion could be putting out, which at level 20 can be a lot of damn damage.
Edit: I thought of more things about the challenging strike. As a challenge and a sneak attack, the ability takes SA and cuts its damage in half, and makes it limited to a single target. Unlike a samurai's challenge, this means the shogun's shadow will make full attacks with their damage bonus a lot less often, and they can only do it to certain targets, and only after they've designated them as a challenge. They won't sneak attack with AoOs before picking a foe, and that means they will almost never SA lower CR mobs. It also limits who the shogun's shadow can get bonus damage toward, because Samurai can get that +20 to damage against constructs oozes trees and whathave you.
It looks more powerful, and in small bursts it is, but I feel like it really pales in comparison to the awesome barrage that is the Samurai's challenge.
#Shogun's Shadow
@Raider: Always so magnanimous! Look, though I'm concerned about regular Samurai waltzing around in scale armor using the Mystic Blade's ki-pool ninja tricks, I'm going to have to point out a few slight differences of opinion as I see them, though maybe I missed the meaning of your post.
At 1st level the abilities are being "shoved" onto the Samurai not the Cavalier - the distinction is important - and the swaps are made with some hefty trades.
Sneak Attack is NOT being given whole cloth to the SAMURAI - it's being tweaked into the Challenge ability which is itself a limited resource. So, at first level you can call a challenge once a day, and ONLY during that challenge/against that opponent, if you meet the tactical requirements your "sneak attack" extra precision damage is 1-6. Possibly 6x a vanilla Samurai's Challenge damage, which needs no tactical requirement. But at 6th level it might be 1/6th if you roll a 1.... Then it steps up again at 7th level and so on, but given the limited times you can use Challenging Strike/day (1/4/7/10/13/16/19) I'm not seeing it as a problem - especially considering the requirements that need to be met I don't think it's OP.
Poison Use? Is that even worth anything? ;p And you're giving up a mount as part of the swap for ninja tricks you don't get until 3rd level? I don't have a problem with that.
As for the Saves, I did miss that - if that is really a problem then reduce a progression of another ability somewhere I guess.
If this mca were 3/4 bab it just end up a poor man's ninja, but hey at least you got resolve and a fort save. Sure it cost you most of your sneak attack, thats now limit use per day, but hey now you get to choose between two sets of abilities that you used to get whole sale. All 3/4ths will do is put this somewhere between a ninja and rogue, and frankly thats not a place anyone wants to be in (especially since its leaning closer to rogue in power level.
If your worried about ki pool power then just restrict its effects to wearing light armor, now the regular samurai/cavalier isn't better with it. PS isnt medium and heavy rmor loss an ok trade for skills and a reflex save?
The more I think about this, the more I realize limiting vanilla, half damage sneak attack to the target of challenge... Is really weak/limited.
I feel like we should just give the guy 1/2 sneak attack against whoever, and then +1 damage per die of SA against the target of the challenge, or a 1/4 power challenge separate from SA.
Edit: Or make it similar to the Knife Fighter rogue, give them 1d4 sneak on everyone else and then 1d8 against the target of the challenge.
If this mca were 3/4 bab it just end up a poor man's ninja, but hey at least you got resolve and a fort save. Sure it cost you most of your sneak attack, thats now limit use per day, but hey now you get to choose between two sets of abilities that you used to get whole sale. All 3/4ths will do is put this somewhere between a ninja and rogue, and frankly thats not a place anyone wants to be in (especially since its leaning closer to rogue in power level.
Actually, it's definitively stronger than rogue or ninja at first level. The order ability, full BAB, extra good save, and resolve put it ahead from the start- even if you don't calc in the 1 target a day sneak attack.
As it levels, it keeps up those abilities- any time it can utilize the challenge, it's winning out over the Ranger, Rogue, Ninja. When it can't, it still retains higher defenses, good BAB, and Mystic Warrior beats out the damage potential of the Fighter so long as it retains ki.
Sure, you can 'go nova' by utilizing the ki and challenge together, but you can also use them separately to go all day long. Three-four fights a day at midlevels? This guy wins out over Ranger/Fighter/Rogue/Ninja. Eight fights? Then we're finally seeing this guy run out, unless he's used feats to gain more ki/challenges- which'll hurt his general damage, sure, but he can probably spare one or two towards it.
The more I think about this, the more I realize limiting vanilla, half damage sneak attack to the target of challenge... Is really weak/limited.
I feel like we should just give the guy 1/2 sneak attack against whoever, and then +1 damage per die of SA against the target of the challenge, or a 1/4 power challenge separate from SA.
Edit: Or make it similar to the Knife Fighter rogue, give them 1d4 sneak on everyone else and then 1d8 against the target of the challenge.
This is a full BAB sneak attacking stronger-than-Ninja class. I've been going on about how it's unbalanced and stronger than it should be for some time, now.
How are you stating that it's -TOO WEAK-? xD
What about comparing it to a samurai?
I mean it's a samurai archetype...
Samurai at level 8:
6HD large+ sized companion, +8 damage on every attack against any foe 3/day including full round attacks that likely involve TWF (and even imp twf), a bonus feat, an ability about as powerful as a bonus feat (expertise), 8th level order beefing, an ally buff, resolve, +8/+3, 6/2/2 saves, 32 skill points, medium armor.
Shogun's Shadow at level 8
Poison Use, 2 ninja tricks, +2d6(3d6) damage in a limited circumstance against any for 3/day which is much less likely to involve full round attacks, a bonus feat, 8th level order beefing, uncanny dodge, resolve, +8/+3, 6/6/2 saves, 48 skill points, light armor.
Compared to the base Samurai that this is an archetype for, I see that there is a good bit of combat offense and versitility given up with the circumstantial nature of the major class ability and loss of companion, in favor of picking up a small increase in burst damage as well as some selectable talents. Out of combat, this character is moderately more useful.
From the way I'm seeing it, compared to itself, this archetype is not more powerful than its base class, it's just different.
Also I'll note that, Samurai can take the same order that the shogun's shadow can, so no power difference there.
Edit: It's too weak because it's NOT a sneak attacking full BAB. It's a full BAB who's Challenge ability is giving up heavy constant damage for increased circumstantial burst damage.
Also I'll note that, Samurai can take the same order that the shogun's shadow can, so no power difference there.
Yeah, this is one of the biggest problems. Mystic Warrior on a regular samurai? *shudders*
I'll agree with you there. I don't think I support giving this guy the ninja's ki pool. At least not the full ki pool.
I heard mention of restricting the Ki pool to a Trick resource only. If that's the case, I don't think it's so bad.
Without Mystic Warrior half of the ninja tricks won't function unless you take that one feat that gives you a limited ki pool, which makes the stealth order much more limited in its flexibility and fancy abilities.
#Shogun's Shadow;
I'm attempting to follow all of this (curse this being a busy week at work :P )
I can't immediately think that the Challenging Strike ability is that powerful, like OSW says above; you're limited in targets per day and you have set requirements that need to be met. In addition this ability doesn't count as sneak attack for any feat/spell/trait/anything else that might alter it.
4d6 or 6d6 precision damage gives 4 - 24 or 6 to 36 burst damage, which extremely situational, comapared to a flat 20 damage against any target of his challenge. (At level 20)
Poison Use, in my opinion it's practically useless due to how limited poisons are.
We could limit him to using the assorted abilities while in light armour and having a light load only.
#Order of the Mystic Warrior;
If you're going to decrease the Ki Pool, I feel that 1/3 level + Cha mod seems like a nice balance (and I haven't seen many classes/archetypes that have a pool based off 1/4 level, but the Bladebound Magus has an Arcane Pool 1/3 + Int mod.)
Limit this to light armour only and it might be a tad less powerful.
(I'd like to review this further but I have to go prepare some samples to be analysed.)
I feel like raider is overselling how powerful challenging strike is as it will usually deal less damage then a equal level samurai, though it will have a chance for more damage.
Order of the mystic blade on the other hand, I think he ID a area that needs to be fixed. I think limiting the order abilities to only work in light armour would help.