Making a 1st Lvl character for Runelords


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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
yumad wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Simmilarly a fighter who protects his softies has a better chance of surviving the combat.
You cannot protect anything in pathfinder, if they want to hit someone else only a few specialized builds can prevent powerful monsters from doing so because of high CMDs. Martials make things dead, leave the protecting and supporting to the casters.

Actually yes you can. If you trip your foes, you've prevented them from reaching your target. If you physically block the path, that's a deterrent to any but the most acrobatic. And if you place yourself in a spot where they can't take on their target without being threathened by you, then yes you can.

And that's not even mentioning archetypes that CAN give protection to adjacent allies.

Unlike your typical MMO, your enemies simply can't walk through you.


Wrath wrote:

<Sigh>, what makes you think anyone else is doing that to the fighter. Fighters buy stuff to do that to themselves. They only need them for occasional fights too. Particularly in the AP he's talking about.

Look, if they were playing Kingmaker, I'd suggesting something other than sword and board fighter. There is far more open ground in that one. I'd go archer build or maybe something mounted as a fighter. But when Yumad came in and told the guy his party sucked and rebuild all of it, he was wrong for this AP. This thread was advice for a particular AP.

I don't believe the Tier system is even remotely accurate to anything like 90% of games. I believe most of the percieved power comes from GM's empowering certain classes and many, many people ignoring the fact classes can cover their weaknesses with gear. I think some aspects of teh game need to be cleared up for rogues to get more advantage from stealth. And that's about it. It is a team game. Most folks play it as a team. Many folk who play intelligently help their party members to minimise their weaknesses. When folks play as a team, and grow organically through an AP, all the way up into high levels, then you don't even have a Tier system. Especially now the Advanced book, and the Ultimate books are out there.

And as for taking him personally, yeah I probably replied to this one more than I should have. Lack of sleep, increased work load and tired of the same wrong arguments I guess. Now I have an agenda, but since this is an online Forum, I'll never achieve the...

Okay, I'll give you the fact that a fighter can potentially buff himself, but this does chew up actions where he could need to be moving in order to position himself to protect the squishies. The best synergy is the kind where one person can make an action and their spell target can immediately benefit instead of having to wait until their next turn. By that point, someone can already be dead.

LazarX wrote:
Maybe what you're forgetting is that the game IS built on cooperative play, not a collection of solo stars, The wizard who buffs his party with haste will generally acheive a lot more than one who grand stands with a lightning bolt. Simmilarly a fighter who protects his softies has a better chance of surviving the combat.

Absolutely. I wasn't try to refute this. The thing I'm trying to say though is that it may not be fair to force your party to synergize around one person. THAT in itself is spotlight hogging.

LazarX wrote:
Actually yes you can. If you trip your foes, you've prevented them from reaching your target. If you physically block the path, that's a deterrent to any but the most acrobatic. And if you place yourself in a spot where they can't take on their target without being threathened by you, then yes you can.

In this AP:

Spoiler:
Bruthazmus: prefers to attack elves. My party lost their witch because she was an elf, and there was nothing the party could do.
Skinsaw Man: 27 CMD, will attack his obsession target above all else. Could be your healer.
Xanesha: 35 CMD, can go invisible, has sneak attack, will ambush your casters if the DM plays her intelligently. Can also petrify.
Lucrecia: 36 CMD, same as her sister.
Black Magga: 42 CMD, constant invisibility purge for sneaky casters. Will fear the entire party then attack one at random. Can probably one-round a caster. Can grapple multiple enemies.
No warrior of any build will stop this.

Also, more often than not, the narrow corridors of this AP are excellent spots to ambush the party members at the back of the queue, whereas the fighter is probably all the way in the front. Oops!

LazarX wrote:
And that's not even mentioning archetypes that CAN give protection to adjacent allies.

This build is feat intensive and is BORING. No one wants to simply sit in one spot in full-defensive every turn. I would agree with you, however, if the casters took leadership to pick up a fighter dedicated to these feats (one of my favourite ways to protect myself when I play a witch or other squishy).


LazarX wrote:
yumad wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Simmilarly a fighter who protects his softies has a better chance of surviving the combat.
You cannot protect anything in pathfinder, if they want to hit someone else only a few specialized builds can prevent powerful monsters from doing so because of high CMDs. Martials make things dead, leave the protecting and supporting to the casters.

Actually yes you can. If you trip your foes, you've prevented them from reaching your target. If you physically block the path, that's a deterrent to any but the most acrobatic. And if you place yourself in a spot where they can't take on their target without being threathened by you, then yes you can.

And that's not even mentioning archetypes that CAN give protection to adjacent allies.

Unlike your typical MMO, your enemies simply can't walk through you.

It's pretty hard without focusing on combat maneuvers, and there are so many other creative ways to get around the fighter other than walking past him. Like perhaps engaging the party from behind to start, surprising the party. Barring that at higher levels creatures have a wide variety of SLAs and abilities to allow them to get the upper hand. Another good way of getting around the fighter is simply targetting his saves, most spellcasters are well aware that a mundane martial like a fighter is going to have a very hard time resisting a will based attack. Once he is out of combat, your back line is vulnerable.

Better to design your party so that the lack of fighter to draw attention isn't as big a problem in the first place with casters and strikers that are more self-sufficient at keeping heat off them or being hard to catch/hit.

I'm of the opinion that light melee strikers and heavy tanks have very little place in a well crafted pathfinder group. Light strikers should be ranged for the most part, but you can design good ninjas and rogues to be really hard to hit so they get a pass, and heavy melee strikers like barbarians and two handed paladins. This is an opinion, not fact, but it seems to work best for the majority of scenarios. There is no place for a "protector" in a game that doesn't have an arbitrary "threat table" unless he is completely built around inconveniencing and preventing enemy movement, but a pure sword and board fighter this is not. This is what high AC (and save) grappling/trip builds are for, which you can do so much better as not a (pure) fighter.

The Exchange

@ swift

Spoiler:

Bruthasmus - what if no one is an elf ( as in the current party I GM for). What if the fighter is he elf ( as in the last group I played in), bruthasmis tactics have him wading in with his morning star. In the confined specs of the goblin stronghold he's an easy kill.

Skin saw man - depending if the group have worked t who he's obsessed with I gues. Fighter types have a hard time in the haunted mansion, agreed on that. But fighting a lone target who focuses on one enemy isn't that big a deal. It's amazing what standing next to a targeted companion can do with prodigious use of 5 foot steps for positioning. I think many people have seen fighter splayed badly when they rush ahead of the group and over extend the areas that need protecting. My group have learned not to do that through a few examples like you threw in above.

Xaneesha - she targets nearest opponent and prefers melee combat. Her AC is awful for her level, but her resistances to magic are impressive. The casters are not the threat to her in this fight. The Martials are. Especially anything with blind fight and or a pet with scent. My current Dwarven fighter has a combat trained animal with the track trick swapped out for guard. Invisible things aren't an issue for him generally. And fighting types are usually first in so she's going to target one of them in general. The big trick with her is the illusion she casts initially and how that trips up players.

Remember, if you don't initially start combats as the tactics suggest, then you're effectively using DM fiat to make combats harder. The tactics are used to reflect the personality of the enemy so they aren't just a series of stats, but a real creature with its own unique set of values and goals.

Lucretia - not much different to Xaneesha, but her tactics are different.

Black magga - is tough. It's not fear she causes by the way, its a poison based confusion brought on by her breath weapon. Poisons are easy to negate, but you need to be prepared for them.

It also only fights for 4 rounds and can only move 20 feet if not in deep water.

Those tentacles and its reach are the real problem, as you pointed out. I think the trick with Magga is to stay at range and annoy rear long enough to flee. Many fighters can switch hit with a bow for this tactic. If you have a caster with FoM available to spare, even better really. But then you're relying on a mate to help, and you're arguing against that. At that level I agree that a fighter has no reliable way of getting freedom of movement u against grapples. It is something that all fighters need to consider for higher levels though. Again it depends on the team work.

I have both the 3.5 edition of this ap and the new version updated for pathfinder by the way. Out of interest, which one are you referring to? The older version is far deadlier than the newer one.


Wrath wrote:

@ swift

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm using the anniversary edition, but I'm aware of the changes that were made (I tend to cross reference when I can).

Spoiler:
Obviously it's entirely possible that no one in the party is an elf or that Skinsaw will be obsessed with someone who's not vulnerable. I was simply thinking of some possibilities where tactics simply aren't in play because of circumstances.

As for Xanesha, yes, she does target the nearest PC, but again, this could be anyone (the AP does not specifically state what square she starts in). As for her AC, yeah, it was nerfed to hell, but there are still many things that keep her more than safe from martials: mirror image, charm, medusa mask, cure serious wounds. And in any case, although she is a melee fighter, she is a highly intelligent and cunning caster/rogue, so she's not going to just sit there and trade blows with the fighter. A DM who plays their NPCs like idiots is not doing them justice, especially a rich character such as her. Xanesha may have been nerfed, but she is still a very potential TPK waiting to happen, and the DM is doing his players a disservice if they don't play her to her full ability. The "combat tactics" section only goes so far.

Regarding Black Magga, you know exactly what I was getting at (I was using "fear" as the meaning of the word itself, not in reference to the fear effect). Regardless of whether or not it's a poison, it's still a powerful effect that can spoil a party quickly. One other thing that has merit is that a party with more bruisers and less "tanks" and "healers" is going to potentially take Black Magga out and get that 30k additional XP for defeating her. A fighter who's simply switching to a bow is not going to have the enhancement bonuses on that bow to bypass her incredible DR. However, a dedicated bruiser with caster support (haste, etc.) is going to destroy her, as is what happened in my campaign when the monk unleashed a full attack on her.


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Folllowing tactics to the letter when they have a sufficient int score and appropriate skills allowing them to be capable of making decisions is foolish.

The Exchange

yumad wrote:
Folllowing tactics to the letter when they have a sufficient int score and appropriate skills allowing them to be capable of making decisions is foolish.

Not following them is DM fiat and metagaming. You're ignoring the part that a characters personality plays in how they fight. Look at Dragons and such. Most of them are egotistical at mid level (into the early teen CRs). Nearly every AP I've seen them encountered at that level has them engaging in close combat after the initial breath attack. Rather stupid if you consider it, but then dragons are arrogant and believe they can take anything. Those that live beyond that stage have learned better though.

However, if as DM you don't adjust tactics in the face of the enemy, then you are indeed doing a diservice to your players. As long as the tactics change after the ones suggested begin to fail. Fortunatley for the PC's most baddies don't survive long enough for that to happen.

DM's who play NPC's above the ability and knowledge of what they're expecting are metagaming to screw their players. It's a fine balance to get it right. As I stated above thread, check the AP obituary threads and see all those dead PC's because the DM changed things to suit themselves or what they thought was better. When Dm's change things to suit themselves, its fiat territory, and apparently folk hate that on these boards.

Cheers

The Exchange

Swift016 wrote:
Wrath wrote:

@ swift

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm using the anniversary edition, but I'm aware of the changes that were made (I tend to cross reference when I can).

** spoiler omitted **

I agree on some aspects, but then parties learn to work together based on their current make up. The fact your group managed to do what you said is impressive. Especially since no one actually died doing it.

As for the other part

Spoiler:
Because its a poison effect it targets fort rather than will initially. Something a fighter is more likley to survive than others. As for mind effecting, its easy to negate and most fighters i see in play ensure they control or negate that as much as possible. Prot from evil is a classic and is easily obtainalbe through a wayfinder and spindle nowadays. Long term delay poison is something our groups also regularly employ.

I think you're underestimating the damge potential of a board and sword fighter. There are many that can put out massive damge. However, i will concede that few that I can think of would be able to take down Magga, even with her reduced hit point total. The creature is CR 15 and is not meant to be beaten. The fact your group could do it is impressive.


Wrath wrote:
yumad wrote:
Folllowing tactics to the letter when they have a sufficient int score and appropriate skills allowing them to be capable of making decisions is foolish.

Not following them is DM fiat and metagaming. You're ignoring the part that a characters personality plays in how they fight. Look at Dragons and such. Most of them are egotistical at mid level (into the early teen CRs). Nearly every AP I've seen them encountered at that level has them engaging in close combat after the initial breath attack. Rather stupid if you consider it, but then dragons are arrogant and believe they can take anything. Those that live beyond that stage have learned better though.

However, if as DM you don't adjust tactics in the face of the enemy, then you are indeed doing a diservice to your players. As long as the tactics change after the ones suggested begin to fail. Fortunatley for the PC's most baddies don't survive long enough for that to happen.

DM's who play NPC's above the ability and knowledge of what they're expecting are metagaming to screw their players. It's a fine balance to get it right. As I stated above thread, check the AP obituary threads and see all those dead PC's because the DM changed things to suit themselves or what they thought was better. When Dm's change things to suit themselves, its fiat territory, and apparently folk hate that on these boards.

Cheers

I didn't imply they would immediately go for the wizard and magically have knowledge about the party (unless they scryed beforehand). However following tactics and continuing to miss the fighter when the wizard just casted a rather dangerous spell at them and they have the spellcraft to recognize it is stupidity.

Enemies don't last long against good parties, in a party that needs healing combat has probably gone on long enough for them to adjust their tactics.


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Wow. The war goes on . If you are here unit .dm just leave. Make your sylph whatever and enjoy the adventure. If you aren't a meat head you should do fine without this optimizing max tactics efficiency seminar. Cheers.

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