Goblin Squad Member
|
About the "NPC town" pick up point. Why not have my slain PC and all of the "besieged and slain" respawn near the town, buy our cash shop refits, and charge back to the battle. We can attack and harry the enemy from outside their siege camp until we fight back in?
Let's say you respawn at the NPC town and buy the same refits, but with coin, not cash. Is that different? Or is your argument mostly that besieged forces shouldn't be able to respawn outside their position?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
no worries. my proposals over the last week have been modified quite a bit based on a lot of legitimate points. I think sometimes a dozen people can think through ideas and objections faster and more thoroughly than one person.
That's half the fun of the Teamspeak chats (shameless plug). And it's done at the speed of vouce, not text!
@Urman to echo what Deianira said reference hobs post from the last page
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Here are a couple things I would like to see as someone mentioned it.
Custom art work - now dont make this cheap, not even a little bit. But limit what you can get.
For example Custom Heraldry. So make it at a price point where it makes sense, i accept the fact that it will be VERY expensive. However think who the target market for these would be. For the most part it wouldnt be individual players (although allow them to do their own character heraldry if they want to drop the cash). The target market would be companies, settlements, and kingdoms. So they could use an in game tool ala wow, OR they could pay real cash to have a custom one created and added in the game.
To prevent someone from having to pony up all the cash, allow guild members to give the leadership goblin balls/sky metal to fund it.
So custom heraldry can be put on shields, some places on armor, tabards, banners, flags..etc. Who can make those items can be restricted by the company, settlement, kingdom leadership.
i think that would be great.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@All - I think I feel comfortable saying that nothing you buy for Skymetal should be lootable.This is probably fairly relevant and brings up some questions, such as "Will it be possible to buy extra Threads in the Cash Shop"?
On one hand, I don't really see a problem with the SkyMetal Sword being Soulbound, since there will almost certainly be a Soulbinding system for Cash Shop-bought Healing Potions. This would also seem to mitigate the concern about resupplying.
On the other hand, if the SkyMetal Sword can't be looted, then that in itself would make it significantly more powerful than player-crafted "equivalent" gear.
Perhaps the SkyMetal Sword forces one of the character's Threads to be used on it? That would actually serve to make it a less valuable option for players who would rather use their Threads for other purposes.
"Not Lootable" and "Automatically Threaded" are not the same thing. If a cash shop purchase is not lootable, and the player chooses not to thread it, it could be that it is part of the loot that remains on the body and is destroyed. It simply means that it will never show up in the portion of goods that other players can walk away with.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But sometimes the cash-rich guy just wants those 100 copper ingots in the market and is willing to pay GW now. GW should be ready to make a deal, as long as it's not unfair to the rest of us.
There's no repeatable, systematic way to do that transaction that's "fair" unless we have some team of people buying and selling on markets to establish prices on a very granular level. We're not going to do that, because its a duplication of work - work players are already doing.
We'll sell you game time. You can resell that for coin, and use the coin to buy the copper. The market comprised of the players will determine what the "fair" price of that copper is, moment to moment, place to place.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
But sometimes the cash-rich guy just wants those 100 copper ingots in the market and is willing to pay GW now. GW should be ready to make a deal, as long as it's not unfair to the rest of us.There's no repeatable, systematic way to do that transaction that's "fair" unless we have some team of people buying and selling on markets to establish prices on a very granular level. We're not going to do that, because its a duplication of work - work players are already doing.
We'll sell you game time. You can resell that for coin, and use the coin to buy the copper. The market comprised of the players will determine what the "fair" price of that copper is, moment to moment, place to place.
Thanks Ryan. While not revealing of your total Cash shop strategy, your post does lead me to "warm and fuzzy" feelings about the possible implications of your wordage. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Not Lootable" and "Automatically Threaded" are not the same thing. If a cash shop purchase is not lootable, and the player chooses not to thread it, it could be that it is part of the loot that remains on the body and is destroyed.
Very good point.
We'll sell you game time. You can resell that for coin, and use the coin to buy the copper. The market comprised of the players will determine what the "fair" price of that copper is, moment to moment, place to place.
I'm very, very curious how you will apply this to the Healing Potions you have already announced your intention to sell in the Cash Shop.
Are you simply accepting that you're going to be unfairly distorting this particular market?
@Nihimon
Perhaps they have just decided not to sell them. Just because they said something once doesn't make it set in stone. This is the purpose of crowdforging surely
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Really, all that Ryan was writing was that Urman's idea would not make it in.
What if the basic cash shop, available anywhere, shows a basic set of purchasable stuff: training time, special skins, stuff that mostly has minimal effect on the game. BUT if the character is inside a settlement with an active central market, then cash can be used to buy stuff in that market, at whatever exchange rate and markup GW sets.
So if I am a settlement, and Nihimon is selling a T3 sword at that settlement, then if I have no coin, I can get the sword through a section of the cash shop. Nihimon gets paid in coin. If no one is selling a sword at that settlement, then I'm out of luck.
If that statement can be expanded into the general strategy/philosophy for all cash shop items, it is very encouraging. Things previously posted can and do change.... It is a stretch to assume everything from a 3 line post, but I feel better. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would counsel against reading Ryan's statement to mean they won't offer any Cash Shop items that compete with player-crafted items.
I'm not saying that he didn't mean that; he may have, although I seriously doubt it.
I'm just saying that if you allow yourself to believe that's what he means now, you're setting yourself up for a greater disappointment if/when he comes back later and says "No, we're still planning on doing that".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Basing an argument on what we think he meant, what we think he didn't mean, or even on what he says today are all up in the air, since the people of GW have changed their minds in the past - so far (in my opinion) for the better. We are free to speculate and suggest, but getting worked up about any of this yet seems premature. At this point, we're still far enough out from EE that I appreciate any glimpses into the game they provide, but take it all with a good helping of salt. That's not being critical of GW in any way - that's an attempt to leave them enough wiggle room to wiggle when they need to and not hem them in with our possibly unrealistic expectations and sometimes insatiable need to know.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You are so totally right, Nihimon. Never assume anything. Just take what is posted/said and cross your fingers. I don't think that I wrote what I thought they would or wouldn't do based off of the above post.
If they don't plan to sell copper, that is just one small victory. Ryan's post leaves things very flexible. The underlying philosophy, however, is encouraging.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I took Ryan's post to state that they wouldn't buy copper (or any other goods) from the market with coin and sell it to a player for cash. Which is valid, because those coin/cash transactions do have a risk of exploit. (What if I buy up all of Bringslight's copper in the market, which he sold for 20 coin each. Then I reprice it at 5000 coin each, then try to buy it with cash?)
I *think* it's a solvable problem, but not an easy one. But Ryan needs to allocate development resources and make judgements of exploitation risks and profitability that we in the forums might skip past.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... it's not equitable, because one class of members in the political economy was treated differently than others.Doesn't time matter?
Imagine you paid 8% sales tax on your house. A few years later, our State Legislature abolishes all sales taxes statewide. Now I buy a comparable house in your neighborhood, but I save $25,000 because I don't have to pay taxes. Why isn't that okay?
Unless you're paying the 8% tax at the same time that I'm not, I think it's still equitable.
No, time doesn't change this. Look, it might be very ok to change the rules in a positive way. In your example, removing a significant wedge between producers would immediately drop housing prices and significantly increase trade. Leaving aside the issue of tax revenues, that's a positive thing. But there's always a political aspect to political economy decisions.
For the all the people who had their house on the market, an 8% drop in the resale value of their home might be very unpleasant.
Commercial examples, where inputs and outputs are clearly linked, may be more instructive, showing the stakes more clearly. You buy a taxi medallion in NYC--you had to finance the deal over 15 years, but even after debt servicing you're going to be profitable. But then a year later, NYC follows the lead of DC, and abolishes the medallion system.
From a policy perspective, I'm all over that--you've removed a guild system that functions mainly to serve the interests of existing guild members, a kind of legislated scarcity that raises prices and lowers competition. The flipside though is poor ole is Nihimon, trying to pay the debt-service on that note, and the deal's now under-water. You used to be $X over the monthly debt service, and now you're $Y under. Bankruptcy, here you come.
Time is particularity essential with regard to equitable policy-making when you think about contracts. That's where the problem with deflation and inflation comes in: it produces arbitrary losses and gains depending on what side of the contract you're on.
Game designers, who have very low barriers to change in policy, have the potential to do things that have powerful, often unforeseen effects. Given the low barrier to change, deliberation is likely a good policy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm...Perhaps "assuming" that they won't sell copper is a bit of a stretch.
At base, what I took away was that GW is not "keen" on the idea of disturbing the player/in-game economy if it is not necessary. Whatever direction that they go, if that is the case, I will be much relieved.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Absolutely not a case for static policy.
I went back and read the original post I quoted, and a few since.
What I think the author the OP cited is fumbling after, not quite saying explicitly, is that game designers can make wholesale changes at the click of a spreadsheet cell. You can introduce very inequitable changes without any of the political pre-work we might have in a polity in the real world, and so you can shoot yourself easily--all the feedback will be post hoc.
Given the low barrier to change, deliberation is likely a good policy.
It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to misunderstand someone - even when they're being as clearly explicit as you were - on the internet.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A new mmorpg was announced at E3: Warhammer 40K. They are doing an interesting thing with their races:
The free race available to everyone will be the Orks. But free players will only be able to progress through the game’s content Ork Boyz: five of which are needed to take down one Space Marine. Behaviour expects that F2P members will always outnumber paid players and the Ork Boyz are their way of balancing F2P with paid members. Once someone becomes invested in the game, they can purchase the other races and open up the full progression paths for each (including the Orks).
There's an obvious difference in the payment, progress and gameplay of these games, but it's an interesting way of a race with a difference (numbers & power) and leveraging F2P players as content.
Maybe Goblins could be utilized in some similar way? Particularly in an escalation sort of way.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Group Monetization - Ramin Shokrizade
Another very interesting article by the respectable Ramin, again. A good read and seems PFO is already on these tracks in some ways. ++1.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I respect the idea that people tend to form groups where they can and it is beneficial. I strongly resist the design sentiment so frequently found in modern MMOs that punishes independence.
Ramin captured it well in this article (linked by Avena above), but I wished to underscore my preference that there always be a way forward provided for the soloist.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Being: I think perhaps that playstyle could be more specifically designed eg Druid skills for eg?! So a player does not miss it does not train it due to the social focus whereas someone out pioneering in the sticks would naturally?
Tbh, I like socialising but fear the beast within me could revert to solitude in the wilderness all too easily. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Oh, I love friendship and friends, and am by no means unsocial. I do tend to chaff against dependency however. It is wonderful to work and coordinate with others but I also enjoy the exhilarations that attend mastery and self-sufficiency.
Our culture appears to be adapting to these new pressures of overpopulation, however much I regret it. The old days are rapidly waning and the new requirements of the evolving environment dominate human development patterns. The independent operator today is necessarily less aware (because of collective real-time knowledge-sharing) than the cogs who natively interoperate. The independent I predict will be more likely to be distrusted as an unknown, unpredictable agent.
Cultural mores seem to be changing as well: the (IMO) deplorable trend toward Ayn Randian 'political realism' ideals in popular political view (despite the consideration that being elite is less common than thinking oneself uncommon) seems designed to soothe the popular conscience when Malthusian conditions threaten to make massive starvation events otherwise intolerable... but I see myself becoming the mad prophet shouting doom now. I must step down from the pulpit and let nature take its course.
I am of another age, when individualism included a social conscience.
Sorry for the rant and for spouting my nightmares. But not sorry enough to delete them from your view.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Being: I think perhaps that playstyle could be more specifically designed eg Druid skills for eg?! So a player does not miss it does not train it due to the social focus whereas someone out pioneering in the sticks would naturally?
Tbh, I like socialising but fear the beast within me could revert to solitude in the wilderness all too easily. :)
I'm with you on that.
I like being part of a social group, which is why I prefer PnP RPGs to CRPGs (sorry guys), but the advantage of CRPGs is that you can play whenever you like, without having to rely on the rest of your group turning up.
In game terms, I don't want to 'have' to log in at 1800 GMT because that's when the rest of my regular party log in. I prefer to be available to join an ad-hoc party for a one-off, or to try to get by on my own.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As annoying as it can be to get 'held back' because your usual group isn't there, and please take note, in a game like Pathfinder Online, grouping with strangers out of the 'safe zones' can be like walking down a dark alley with Jack the Ripper on your left and Alucard on your right, let us hope that working as a group merely makes things go faster.
Alternatively, going solo might enable you to avoid fights, depending upon how the stealth mechanics play out and/or how the NPC Mobs react to the environment.
I know in skyrim that, when at low levels and the game decides to be a dick and throw Sabercats at me at level 5-6, I will run for the nearest logs/pile of boulders/cliff and hurl my nordic ass over those obstacles, knowing full well the pathing systems of the NPCs can have trouble with them.
They will either have to run around the log, climb over (slowly) the boulders or run around them, or have to detour around the cliff, giving me some precious space to try and make it to a nearby Guard or another obstacle to try and compensate for the Sabercat's much higher ground speed.
fighting alone, unless you're very 'high level' and are rocking some impressive ability badges and gear, is going to be VERY draining on your resources.
Yes, the Fighter can run around on his own, but he'll need to 'rest' a lot more to recover hitpoints on his own, and he will have to go back to town more and more often and expend a great deal of coin to repair his armor and weapons from the constant use.
The more people you add to the equation, the longer you can stay out in the field, the slower your gear will deteriorate, the more enemies you can fight/harvest resources and you'll actually have some conversation. The downside is ... the loot gets split up, and you might not get as much as you would doing it solo.
It's going to be interesting to see how Goblinworks handles this situation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That is not the comparison you are making.
This is the correct comparison:
You hike far up a mountain, clear the ground, and build a house. You have a great view and wonderful clean fresh air. It takes you 10 years to do this. No one else has such a house.
I pay a guy to go make me a comparable house on the other side of the mountain. A few weeks later, I move in. I'm just the first of many, soon "mountain living" will be commonplace.
Has your house lost value?
Yes, completely. You went from having a house that took extensive time and effort and being unique, to a common place house. The value of your unique house that is no longer unique, went through the floor.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
But sometimes the cash-rich guy just wants those 100 copper ingots in the market and is willing to pay GW now. GW should be ready to make a deal, as long as it's not unfair to the rest of us.There's no repeatable, systematic way to do that transaction that's "fair" unless we have some team of people buying and selling on markets to establish prices on a very granular level. We're not going to do that, because its a duplication of work - work players are already doing.
We'll sell you game time. You can resell that for coin, and use the coin to buy the copper. The market comprised of the players will determine what the "fair" price of that copper is, moment to moment, place to place.
Yes, exactly right.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"Not Lootable" and "Automatically Threaded" are not the same thing. If a cash shop purchase is not lootable, and the player chooses not to thread it, it could be that it is part of the loot that remains on the body and is destroyed. It simply means that it will never show up in the portion of goods that other players can walk away with.@All - I think I feel comfortable saying that nothing you buy for Skymetal should be lootable.This is probably fairly relevant and brings up some questions, such as "Will it be possible to buy extra Threads in the Cash Shop"?
On one hand, I don't really see a problem with the SkyMetal Sword being Soulbound, since there will almost certainly be a Soulbinding system for Cash Shop-bought Healing Potions. This would also seem to mitigate the concern about resupplying.
On the other hand, if the SkyMetal Sword can't be looted, then that in itself would make it significantly more powerful than player-crafted "equivalent" gear.
Perhaps the SkyMetal Sword forces one of the character's Threads to be used on it? That would actually serve to make it a less valuable option for players who would rather use their Threads for other purposes.
Wow, I forgot about that thread....
I seriously hope they dont make binding items. It has to be the most annoying thing I have ever dealt with in an MMO. Granted I have only really played 2 MMO's but in SWTOR I cannot stand it.
I pick up an item, that cannot be used by my character, but is bound to my character... therefore a useless item. bah
Really, thats also why I hope they stick with Goblin Balls and no other cash shop for stuff.
If its in the game, we need to find it not buy it.
People will buy Goblin Balls by the bag full. It will be enough for them to make plenty of money. Why? Because anything that could be in the cash shop will be on the market for sale. If someone wants it and cannot afford it, to the Goblin Ball site they will go.