Double Chain Kama confusion; Reach weapon or no?

[Morbius X]

This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain. The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

I do not understand the description at all.

So, you fight with these as you would two weapons. I take it that it is no longer a reach weapon when you do this. Therefore, you can only attack adjacent and do not threaten at 10 ft.

But then it says "OR extend the chain to make a single reach attack".

Does that mean that if I choose to use the weapon as a reach weapon I can only make ONE attack? What if I have two or three attacks from having a high BAB? I can't use the Reach ability with a Full Attack?

Does this also mean I cannot use the weapon as a reach weapon and attack with both ends?

What's the point of such a weird ruling?

[Tenshi no Shi]

Basically it you can use two-weapon fighting without reach and can treat it as a reach weapon by forgoing the two-weapon fighting. You still mae multiple attacks by having a hight base attack. This is at least how I interpret it. It is a terribly written rule.

[Are]

It means that you can either fight with both ends without reach, or fight with a single end with reach. You get your iterative attacks either way.

[Kazumetsa]

It's an all around pretty boss weapon! I wish it was considered a light weapon so I could use it with weapon finesse. /sigh

[Kazaan]

You're allowed to wield any double weapon as a 2-h weapon, choosing the method at the beginning of your turn for free. So this just has a special caveat that if you're wielding it in 2-h mode, it benefits from reach, whereas if you take advantage of the double property, it doesn't have reach. You can also recover it as a free action if it's dropped from one hand or disarmed.

[Umbranus]

Kazumetsa wrote:

It's an all around pretty boss weapon! I wish it was considered a light weapon so I could use it with weapon finesse. /sigh

At least the offhand attack can be dome with weapon finesse because double weapons treat their offhand side as light.

But as the double chain kama states that you can use it as if wielding two kamas I think both ends should count as light weapons (because kamas are light weapons).

Quote:

The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand

This is the relevant part.

[Kazumetsa]

Don't tease me Umbra!

I might try this reasoning with my DM...

[Kazaan]

Umbranus wrote:

At least the offhand attack can be dome with weapon finesse because double weapons treat their offhand side as light.

That's specifically only for determining attack penalty. It wouldn't count as a light weapon for weapon finesse, piranha strike, or any other ability that requires wielding a light weapon.

But treating it as two individual kamas (which are light weapons) should still stand. So it's a special double weapon in that it explicitly functions as a pair of individual light weapons that are dropped/disarmed individually as opposed to, say, a quarterstaff which is dropped/disarmed as a single weapon and only counts the off-hand end as light for the purpose of determining attack penalty.

[Morbius X]

So it means I either spend my turn using it as two weapons or spend a turn using it only as a reach weapon?

I cannot switch between?

For example, I have 3 attacks at +11/+6/+1 and then an additional two off-hand attacks due to Improved Two Weapon Fighting. So on a full attack I have +9/+4/-1 and +9/+4 wielding the kamas in each hand.

If I choose to wield it as a reach weapon I only get +11/+6/+1, but all as Reach attacks?

If I can pick up a kama dropped as a free action why am I not allowed to simply make, say, two attacks as a Reach attack, pull the kama back to my hand as a free action, and make my final attack and secondary attacks as normal? Or any other such combination?

[Drakkiel]

That's the way my GM rules it, although he does rule that whatever "grip" you have the weapon ready for when you end your turn is how it stays until your next turn. So if you end your turn with using them as 2 kamas then no reach AoOs :)

[Starbuck_II]

Kazaan wrote:

Umbranus wrote:

At least the offhand attack can be dome with weapon finesse because double weapons treat their offhand side as light.

That's specifically only for determining attack penalty. It wouldn't count as a light weapon for weapon finesse, piranha strike, or any other ability that requires wielding a light weapon.

But treating it as two individual kamas (which are light weapons) should still stand. So it's a special double weapon in that it explicitly functions as a pair of individual light weapons that are dropped/disarmed individually as opposed to, say, a quarterstaff which is dropped/disarmed as a single weapon and only counts the off-hand end as light for the purpose of determining attack penalty.

It also doesn't count as a light weapon for Str purposes. Double weapons always deal 1.5 Str if you look closely (except during flurries to nerf monks).

[Morbius X]

But apparently it's a unique double weapon, cause it states you wield the kamas as if wielding two weapons, not as if wielding a double weapon.

I think the "Double" property is the problem. Boy I sure wish this FAQ gets answered soon because I have a Ninja to DM and we want to work out the kinks with this weapon.

[Kazaan]

Starbuck_II wrote:

It also doesn't count as a light weapon for Str purposes. Double weapons always deal 1.5 Str if you look closely (except during flurries to nerf monks).

Actually, that's been covered in a round-about manner by the "penalties" clause. It's been determined that "penalties" refers not only to the specific TWF attack penalties but also to the more generic "penalties" of Str bonus to damage, handedness, and the like. For example, the monster Redcap (a small creature) and Tieflings (a medium creature) with the Large Limbs variant ability have the capacity to wield Medium and Large sized weapons, respectively, "without penalty". Now, the Redcap's stat block includes a Medium Scythe; a normally 2-h weapon. A small creature can't normally wield a medium 2-h weapon because the handedness step-up would push it to a category over 2-h. The only logical way for a small creature to wield a medium 2-h weapon with an ability that removes "penalties" for wielding oversized weapons is for "penalties" to include more peripheral topics than strictly attack roll penalties; things like handedness. Therefore, by extension, a double weapon taking "penalties" of wielding a one-handed and light weapon includes not only the TWF penalties but also the "penalty" of having reduced str-to-damage compared to general 2-h weapon str-to-damage. So the general rule for Str-to-damage on a double weapon is that you treat it as if wielding a one-handed weapon in the main-hand and a light weapon in the off-hand with the caveat that if the weapon is dropped or disarmed, it is dropped as a single unit. The Double Chained Kama has a specific exception to the general rule in that it is treated as two individual Kama when wielded as a double weapon and each hand is disarmed or dropped individually. One extension of this is that, in the case of a "normal" double weapon (say, a quarterstaff), if you have a third arm for whatever reason, you could use it to 2-h wield the "main-hand" end of the double weapon and get your 1.5x Str to damage for that end. You couldn't do this technique with the double kama, however, since they're exceptionally treated as a pair of light weapons rather than a 1-h + light as normal double weapons would be.