It's recently come to my attention that ignoring requirements on magic crafting applies to the level requirement for enhancement bonuses as well. Am I reading the rules right in thinking that I could attempt to craft a +5 weapon at level 6 and only add +5 to the DC for ignoring the levelx3 requirement for enhancement bonuses?
Its borked. expect a long argument with no clear answers.
Yes, sadly, RAW seems to allow you to do exactly that. And, by RAW, a level 3 wizard with Craft Wondrous Items could make a Ring of Infinite Wishes all cast at 20th level if he has enough gold and a little help making the DC check (maybe, first, he'll craft himself some wondrous items to help with Crafting DCs).
What the game needs is a sliding scale, so that the farther over your head you try to craft, the harder the DC becomes. I might suggest the DC bump should be 5 + however many levels you are missing, so the OP's example would require level 15 being done by a level 6 crafter so he's missing 9 levels, so the final DC would go up by 14. That'd be my houserule, but it's not RAW.
As a DM, if you're strictly trying to enforce RAW, then I suggest that the biggest restriction you have is gold. If nothing else, the Wealth-by-Level table recommends that he'd have to be 8th level before he has the 25,000 GP to make the +5 weapon, assuming he doesn't own any expensive gear of his own. He'd probably have to be more like 10-12th level before he'd realistically have that kind of cash just lying around. I wouldn't allow him to get "loans" from NPCs (no chance of him finding a high-level fighter and asking the guy to pay up front - that guy would demand proof that the creator would succeed before handing over 25k GP on a "maybe" chance, or he'd just expect to pay once the item is finished, not before). That doesn't really stop in-party loans, but at least then all their liquid cash gets tied up in one big item instead of being spread around to lots of smaller items.
Or just make houserules, but that's not a very good answer for the "Rules Questions" forum.
I'd think the +5 DC would prevent a lot of early level crafting normally because you'd be missing other prereqs so the you'd easily add 15-20 or more. But with enhancement bonuses the only real limiter to early crafting is cost. Your house rule sounds like about what I'd use for situations like this.
I personally would do the +5 per increment missing.
so if it's min lvl of say 12, count the caster level difference (divide by two) and increase times 5... seems balanced to me
FYE, those two things are mathematically different, unless you meant to say "divide by three" instead.
E.g., to use the OP's example of a 6th level crafter, he needs to be 6th level to make a +2 weapon, 9th for +3, 12th for +4, and 15th for +5. By "+5 per increment missing" he's missing two increments so your housrule gets +10, but by "count the caster level difference (divide by two) and increase times 5" you get 6/2x5 = 15.
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Yes, sadly, RAW seems to allow you to do exactly that. And, by RAW, a level 3 wizard with Craft Wondrous Items could make a Ring of Infinite Wishes all cast at 20th level if he has enough gold and a little help making the DC check (maybe, first, he'll craft himself some wondrous items to help with Crafting DCs).
A gem or lamp. To get the Forge ring feat you need to be 7th level.
I, for one, don't hate it at all. Players in my game freely craft items all the time.
I do, however, dislike bad game balance. A 3rd level caster creating an item (yes, not a ring) granting 9th level spells that he will not even be able to cast for another 14 levels is silly. It's bad balance and therefore I called this aspect of item crafting "sad".
The game designers who converted Pathfinder from 3.5 were not happy with the costly and restrictive magic item crafting rules and decided to make it easier, even auto-success (they've said this much on the forums here). I suspect that when they did, they overlooked or underestimated the potential for game-breaking abuse such as I mentioned above.
True, the financial investment can be a decent limitation, but creative players could get around that and presumably it's not as big a problem for the right NPC with the right connections, the thought of which can have world-damaging consequences.
Example:
Low-level group rescues a missing princess. The king offers them a reward. The enterprising entrepreneur says "Oh, great king, perhaps it is I who can reward you. If you will but pay me fair market price for a Crown of Ultimate Wishes, I will craft one for you forthwith. I will become rich, but you will become a GOD! Sadly, I lack the funds to make such a crown, but surely you do not, so the only reward I ask is to make this crown for you at fair price." If the king hesitates "Surely, oh great king, you've heard the rumors that several of your rival kings have already begun work on their own crowns, and even some of your distant kin, with known royal bloodline I might add, have hired wizards to make such items too - you MUST hire someone, and I'm glad to be that someone. And, I did rescue your princess." If the king agrees, the funds he pays cover the materials to make TWO such crowns, and now the crafter can make one for himself, or even, make his first to be on the safe side.
And if a DM would stop that, consider that the same king might accept the same request from his NPC cousin or his NPC court wizard, and every king would be making them, as well as other rich and powerful nobles, wealthy merchants, etc. Suddenly, items like this would be as commonplace as daggers, and wishes would be flooding every wealthy city in Golarion faster than they are being cast in the fabled City of Brass.
Ideally, for game balance, it makes sense that nobody can make an item of wishes unless they can fully understand and cast the Wish spell. Why can't a 16th level wizard prepare Wish? Why isn't it an 8th level spell, or 7th, or even 1st? Presumably, because it's hard to understand and master, and only wizards of the highest power can figure out how to cast it. But yet, a wizard barely out of his apprenticeship can figure out how to create magical items that use the same power, as long as he has some gold to buy the materials.
Nonsense.
And sad.
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Yes, sadly, RAW seems to allow you to do exactly that. And, by RAW, a level 3 wizard with Craft Wondrous Items could make a Ring of Infinite Wishes all cast at 20th level if he has enough gold and a little help making the DC check (maybe, first, he'll craft himself some wondrous items to help with Crafting DCs).
What the game needs is a sliding scale, so that the farther over your head you try to craft, the harder the DC becomes. I might suggest the DC bump should be 5 + however many levels you are missing, so the OP's example would require level 15 being done by a level 6 crafter so he's missing 9 levels, so the final DC would go up by 14. That'd be my houserule, but it's not RAW.
As a DM, if you're strictly trying to enforce RAW, then I suggest that the biggest restriction you have is gold. If nothing else, the Wealth-by-Level table recommends that he'd have to be 8th level before he has the 25,000 GP to make the +5 weapon, assuming he doesn't own any expensive gear of his own. He'd probably have to be more like 10-12th level before he'd realistically have that kind of cash just lying around. I wouldn't allow him to get "loans" from NPCs (no chance of him finding a high-level fighter and asking the guy to pay up front - that guy would demand proof that the creator would succeed before handing over 25k GP on a "maybe" chance, or he'd just expect to pay once the item is finished, not before). That doesn't really stop in-party loans, but at least then all their liquid cash gets tied up in one big item instead of being spread around to lots of smaller items.
Or just make houserules, but that's not a very good answer for the "Rules Questions" forum.
It's a good houserule, though. Thanks. :)
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It's recently come to my attention that ignoring requirements on magic crafting applies to the level requirement for enhancement bonuses as well. Am I reading the rules right in thinking that I could attempt to craft a +5 weapon at level 6 and only add +5 to the DC for ignoring the levelx3 requirement for enhancement bonuses?
Yes, you are correct. Even a level 1 character, should they somehow get their hands on the appropriate item creation feat, could create a + 5 weapon, simply by adding + 5 to the crafting DC. The main restriction on crafting is not the actual crafting DC, but the time and cost requirements.
I do, however, dislike bad game balance. A 3rd level caster creating an item (yes, not a ring) granting 9th level spells that he will not even be able to cast for another 14 levels is silly. It's bad balance and therefore I called this aspect of item crafting "sad".
Wouldn't an item that casts a spell be a Spell Trigger item, per the Magic Items section?
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Being one of the only things, along with the item creation feat that can't be missed with a +5 to the crafting DC? Per the Magic Item Creation section ;
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading this as saying you can't create an item that casts Wish until you can cast Wish.
Edit : Looking at it again, I'm wrong, it could be a Command Word or Use Activated item, which doesn't have the same restriction. I agree wholeheartedly, very ridiculous.
I'd also argue that, where a GM follows the guidelines set down in the core rulebook, namely Wealth By Level, and doesn't let his PC's craft custom Magic Items, or at least holds final say in any custom crafting, then there is nothing particularly game breaking about crafting at all. The problem comes in where player's wealth is well above wealth by level, where they create custom items based off the formulas in the book without the GM overlooking the items first or where the player's are given crazy amounts of downtime.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
I do, however, dislike bad game balance. A 3rd level caster creating an item (yes, not a ring) granting 9th level spells that he will not even be able to cast for another 14 levels is silly. It's bad balance and therefore I called this aspect of item crafting "sad".Wouldn't an item that casts a spell be a Spell Trigger item, per the Magic Items section?
Not at all. A "Spell Trigger" item is one that the user must be able (eventually) to cast the spell, for example, a wand - you cannot even try to use a wand (without UMD) unless that spell is available to your class; if it is, then with a simple word you "trigger" the spell.
Other items can reproduce spells but have no such restrictions. For example, anybody can use a ring of invisibility or boots of speed without requiring them to have Invisibility or Haste on their spell lists. Those items "cast" spells, as it were, but without the restrictions that a spell trigger item would have.
Also, the legendary lamp of Aladdin's genie was not a spell-trigger item. Aladdin did not need to have class access to the Wish spell, all he had to do was rub the lamp and the genie granted his wishes. That might be more of a Summon Genie spell, but Aladdin couldn't cast that spell, either.
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading this as saying you can't create an item that casts Wish until you can cast Wish.
None of which applies to boots of speed (which can be crafted by a 3rd level wizard long before he can actually cast Haste), nor would it apply to a crown of wishes.
I'd also argue that, where a GM follows the guidelines set down in the core rulebook, namely Wealth By Level, and doesn't let his PC's craft custom Magic Items, or at least holds final say in any custom crafting, then there is nothing particularly game breaking about crafting at all. The problem comes in where player's wealth is well above wealth by level, where they create custom items based off the formulas in the book without the GM overlooking the items first or where the player's are given crazy amounts of downtime.
Fair enough, but there are items in the CRB that do grant wishes, like a Luck Blade or a Ring of Wishes, which can be crafted by CORE rules without requiring the creator to get special permission to make a non-core item.
Yeah, yeah, a DM can always say No. A DM can tell a fighter he's not allowed to swing his sword, for no other reason than "just because I said so". But if we're in a rules questions forum talking about what the rules will allow, then the rules allow for crafting certain kinds of magical items without being able to cast the spell or even meet the minimum caster level to cast that spell or create that item.
Back to the OP's question, creating a +5 weapon at level 6, it's not nearly as far-fetched as an item of wishes, but still somewhat ridiculous for a low level character to do. And yet, it can be done. By RAW.
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Back to the OP's question, creating a +5 weapon at level 6, it's not nearly as far-fetched as an item of wishes, but still somewhat ridiculous for a low level character to do. And yet, it can be done. By RAW.
I agree that the +5 weapon at level 6 for just a + 5 DC is totally RAW, and absolutely ridiculous. I think the OP's question is answered now, so unless there's more Rules Questions, further discussion of this might best be moved to the General Discussion forum, I suppose?
Not at all. A "Spell Trigger" item is one that the user must be able (eventually) to cast the spell, for example, a wand - you cannot even try to use a wand (without UMD) unless that spell is available to your class; if it is, then with a simple word you "trigger" the spell.
Other items can reproduce spells but have no such restrictions. For example, anybody can use a ring of invisibility or boots of speed without requiring them to have Invisibility or Haste on their spell lists. Those items "cast" spells, as it were, but without the restrictions that a spell trigger item would have.
Quite right, a mistake on my part, apologies to anyone who might have been misinformed by my mistake.
Fair enough, but there are items in the CRB that do grant wishes, like a Luck Blade or a Ring of Wishes, which can be crafted by CORE rules without requiring the creator to get special permission to make a non-core item.
Yeah, yeah, a DM can always say No. A DM can tell a fighter he's not allowed to swing his sword, for no other reason than "just because I said so". But if we're in a rules questions forum talking about what the rules will allow, then the rules allow for crafting certain kinds of magical items without being able to cast the spell or even meet the minimum caster level to cast that spell or create that item.
You're right again, for core items, permission shouldn't be necessary, as they shouldn't be core if they're not balanced. The Luckblade has a limited number of wishes that do not recharge and can't be regenerated. The price of the weapon, where it includes any wishes, reflects the cost of the material component for casting wish. It's an expensive item, which offsets the ability to access wish before time. I mean, it's more expensive that a Scroll of Wish, by 15,010gp. Why not just buy one of them? (That's based off the crafting cost btw, not the purchase price) The same goes for the Ring of Three Wishes. I don't think there is an item of unlimited wishes per the rulebooks, so making the argument by comparing to an item that doesn't exist is not an accurate argument. The GM can say no to an item of unlimited wishes, or make it cost 50,000,000,000 gp if they want, and that is supported by RAW because "The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."
The skill check would be 5 + 15 (CL) + 5 (ignoring CL) or DC25. Is that really easy to attain? Any failure is loss of materials. Sounds costly, 50 days and 25,000gp.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.It says "special prerequisite". Which could be interpreted to being not ignorable via +5 check which only mentions "prerequisite".
No, that one is right in the official FAQ:
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/21/13