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This might seem like an odd idea, but maybe a merchant char. could, if people aren't entirely happy with the way loot was distributed, take it all, and then see everyone was given the equivalent amount of money the entire venture earned. the problem would be resting the loot from the one who benefitted...
Afterwards you could attempt to buy it back, but then you might have to pay exorbitant fees to get it back....
The system might need work. Thoughts?
That sounds like a great idea for a slotted ability for Expert type characters, or even a major ability for a cohort your hire to use, great thinking!
Goblin Squad Member
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If a mob drops a very small number of very valuable items you would need at least the option of a roll system I think (or a hidden roll system which a "personal loot bag" essentially is).
This is a problem when a dragon drops, say, two "dragon fangs" and you need one of those to craft a fancy piece of equipment. What if the dragon instead drops two hundred pieces of "dragon fang fragments" and you need one hundred such fragments to craft one item? -> Easy to distribute loot fairly.
By increasing granularity in crafting mats in drops and recepies you can have a more fair loot distribution. GW uses increased granularity (compared to original Pathfinder) for rolls and stats so why not also use it for crafting mats?
That sounds like a great idea for a slotted ability for Expert type characters, or even a major ability for a cohort your hire to use, great thinking!This might seem like an odd idea, but maybe a merchant char. could, if people aren't entirely happy with the way loot was distributed, take it all, and then see everyone was given the equivalent amount of money the entire venture earned. the problem would be resting the loot from the one who benefitted...
Afterwards you could attempt to buy it back, but then you might have to pay exorbitant fees to get it back....
The system might need work. Thoughts?
Not sure I get what the idea is here. Are you suggesting I can get a skill which means I can decide to get all the loot and just pay the rest of the party a sum of coins? If so I hope this is something the others have to agree to and can refuse the offer and decide to split the booty up anyway.
If it is an npc char then I believe this is not good for the game as it just creates a coin fountain whereby items are converted directly to conjured coin
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if the dragon instead drops two hundred pieces of "dragon fang fragments" and you need one hundred such fragments to craft one item? -> Easy to distribute loot fairly.
This is essentially what I was getting at earlier, although reading it in context that way, it's unappealing - there's just something wrong about getting 37/100ths of a Dragon Fang :)
My main objection to most loot systems is that they unnecessarily slow down the action. I very much enjoy rolling through a dungeon, and waiting around for the inevitable slow guy to spend 15-20 seconds comparing items before he decides whether to roll Need, when there are another 3 items to roll on after that, is just maddening.
Personally, I'd rather have the option to just auto-assign loot Round-Robin style so that it automatically goes into the character's inventory (or a special loot window that can be examined later, during downtime). As long as everything's tradable, it should be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, since they're not doing any binding, I'd rather just see items to go whoever loots the body. They can trade among the party if they want. If someone's kleptoing all the look and not sharing, kick them from the group or kill them.
Agreed. Bring back the RP into the game and make players work out how to divide loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if the dragon instead drops two hundred pieces of "dragon fang fragments" and you need one hundred such fragments to craft one item? -> Easy to distribute loot fairly.This is essentially what I was getting at earlier, although reading it in context that way, it's unappealing - there's just something wrong about getting 37/100ths of a Dragon Fang :)
I agree and I apologize for unknowingly stealing your idea. The dragon fang example is horrible but consider dragon scales (thousands), ogre toes (10) or dragon teeth (~100?) instead. The main advantage is that everyone can get something.
If a boss mob drops one or two really valuable items that are worth more than all the other dungeon loot combined, division within a group (especially if its a group of strangers) gets really tricky and can only be "fair" if the one who gets a valuable item pays the other group members compensation money.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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One possible method would be for everyone to put a personal value on each item; the person who bids the highest gets the item and divides the amount of coin bid by the second highest bidder evenly among all of the members of the group (including himself).
If the second highest bidder in a five-person group thought the dragon fang was worth 10,000 coin, everyone except the high bidder should be happy with 2,000 coin for their 1/5 interest in the fang. This system is hard to cheat at, because if you bid honestly you are guaranteed a profitable outcome, but if you try to be the second-highest bidder at an inflated price you can get badly burned. A problem with that option is that it is possible that the value of an item to someone could exceed their current liquid assets, meaning that they are unable to buy out other peoples' shares.
EDIT: to correct example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, if I'm parsing your suggestion properly, a four man team finds Maguffin of Power. Person A bids 800 coin for it. Person B has no interest and passes. Person C bids 500. Person D bids 1000. Person D takes the item, and then pays out the second highest bid (800) divided among 4 people (including himself) so Person D effectively loses 600 coin and get the mop, while A, B, and C each get 200 coin?
Edit to add: I see no problem with this, but I don't think it needs a mechanic. This sounds like something a group of players are perfectly capable of implementing on their own.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm suggesting that it could be one of several methods of distribution that could be explicitly contracted to by a group beforehand, so that the flagging mechanics can know when someone steals and respond accordingly. I don't think it fair that killing a member of your own group and taking his rightfully earned treasure shouldn't be punished, nor that killing a ninja looter who tried to grab and run should subject one to the same consequence. The middle ground I see is to let the game know when somebody steals, which requires a way for the game to know when stuff is distributed as agreed.
That sounds like a great idea for a slotted ability for Expert type characters, or even a major ability for a cohort your hire to use, great thinking!This might seem like an odd idea, but maybe a merchant char. could, if people aren't entirely happy with the way loot was distributed, take it all, and then see everyone was given the equivalent amount of money the entire venture earned. the problem would be resting the loot from the one who benefitted...
Afterwards you could attempt to buy it back, but then you might have to pay exorbitant fees to get it back....
The system might need work. Thoughts?
Not sure I get what the idea is here. Are you suggesting I can get a skill which means I can decide to get all the loot and just pay the rest of the party a sum of coins? If so I hope this is something the others have to agree to and can refuse the offer and decide to split the booty up anyway.
If it is an npc char then I believe this is not good for the game as it just creates a coin fountain whereby items are converted directly to conjured coin
I'm suggesting you bring along a third party pc with the gold to pay what the item is worth, or what the party thinks it is worth, and give them gold for it. And that was the problem: if somebody can just pick the item up and say "Mine" and because of this the rest of the party feels they got the short end, how do you determine whether to go for the gold for the item. it's harder to rest it from the owner after the fact.
While you could potentially have a majority vote to make the item into gold so that no one can claim the best entirely for themselves, but I kind of dislike the idea of taking something that you already have either via game-mechanic or mutual agreement.
I would also add a short loot timer in which people would have to decide to pawn the item. I don't think the system is fundamentally flawed, it just needs some work. but they may even have better ideas, idk.
@Aizom...that has made things even less clear to me
You are suggesting a player tag along just to pick up the loot separate to the party.(Which is what I understand by a third party PC)
Then gives them a cash value at the end and keeps all the loot for resale on the market?
I really don't see how this actually helps tbh.
Why would I trust some other player more than I trust the other members of my party?
Why would I want to agree with this?
Why would a player want to tag along behind the party just to pick up all the loot then offer people money at the end?
What problem does it actually solve? I am as likely to disagree with this players valuation of an object as anyone elses surely?
@ZenPagan
The third person pc doesn't necessarily have to physically be present. The idea is that if everyone isn't happy about loot distribution, where one person gets "all the good stuff," there is a majority vote to have either some or all items sent to this third party, who then gives each member of the party a fraction of the overall value in gold, so if there are 2 people, one gets half, the other gets half.
The third party, in accepting the item, essentially completes the transaction and gives you the money. The game automatically transfers the money when the item is given to him.The players could then go and attempt to buy the item from him, assuming he hasn't sold it, and he could sell it in whatever manner he sees fit, since he bought it.
As for what to do with the item in the time it takes to get to this third person, I would propose some kind of mutual loot box that people have to pay dire consequences to loot from, which no one has access to without group consent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aizom
I don't think your idea will fly Sir. Unless I am mistaken, you are proposing a situation where the "loot" is magically transported to a third party? That seems like it would go against the Dev's design that item's have to be physically moved. It seems like it might be open to serious abuse in getting things quickly to far places with little or no risk.
If that is not what you are getting at. Then it sounds like a real hassle, all around.
@Aizom
I don't think your idea will fly Sir. Unless I am mistaken, you are proposing a situation where the "loot" is magically transported to a third party? That seems like it would go against the Dev's design that item's have to be physically moved. It seems like it might be open to serious abuse in getting things quickly to far places with little or no risk.
If that is not what you are getting at. Then it sounds like a real hassle, all around.
You may be right about the hassle part, but I tried to make it clear I meant that there was essentially a trust for the group loot container where no one could take anything from it until they had physically transported it to a merchant.
It's somewhat likely that you will sell some of the loot anyway, this doesn't really add an extra step, it just ensures that the whole party benefits from the sale of items, and that no one feels slighted if someone gets all the dragon fangs this run.
It's just an idea. I'm not saying it has to be in place, just that it could work. You might even be able to take and implement pieces if you wish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aizom
Actually some of what you propose is similar to what I proposed previously.
Only when the party can't agree on a different division.
*Coin is auto divided
*Items are "looted" into a loot sack/box/crate/whatever. The weight/encumbrance is distributed between members as you go.
*At the end of the adventure, the party opens the sack and it is displayed for division (however the party chooses)in a "loot" window. For kicks give the window a border that looks like a tavern table top. =P
Only really necessary in a PUG, most likely.
One problem that I see is a lack of rogue like opportunities...
Edit:Keep the pleading, arguing, begging, bargaining at the end of the adventure where it belongs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aizom
Actually some of what you propose is similar to what I proposed previously.
Only when the party can't agree on a different division.
*Coin is auto divided
*Items are "looted" into a loot sack/box/crate/whatever. The weight/encumbrance is distributed between members as you go.
*At the end of the adventure, the party opens the sack and it is displayed for division (however the party chooses)in a "loot" window. For kicks give the window a border that looks like a tavern table top. =POnly really necessary in a PUG, most likely.
One problem that I see is a lack of rogue like opportunities...
So what happens if someone crashes, or has to run, or the party decides to swap somebody out in the middle of things? Sorry, no loot for you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what happens if someone crashes, or has to run, or the party decides to swap somebody out in the middle of things? Sorry, no loot for you?@Aizom
Actually some of what you propose is similar to what I proposed previously.
Only when the party can't agree on a different division.
*Coin is auto divided
*Items are "looted" into a loot sack/box/crate/whatever. The weight/encumbrance is distributed between members as you go.
*At the end of the adventure, the party opens the sack and it is displayed for division (however the party chooses)in a "loot" window. For kicks give the window a border that looks like a tavern table top. =POnly really necessary in a PUG, most likely.
One problem that I see is a lack of rogue like opportunities...
Well, if they can reconnect or come back they can rejoin their group just like traditionally, right? I don't see what you mean by running?Leave early, either go without or divide current bag right then.
@Aizom
Actually some of what you propose is similar to what I proposed previously.
Only when the party can't agree on a different division.
*Coin is auto divided
*Items are "looted" into a loot sack/box/crate/whatever. The weight/encumbrance is distributed between members as you go.
*At the end of the adventure, the party opens the sack and it is displayed for division (however the party chooses)in a "loot" window. For kicks give the window a border that looks like a tavern table top. =POnly really necessary in a PUG, most likely.
One problem that I see is a lack of rogue like opportunities...
Edit:Keep the pleading, arguing, begging, bargaining at the end of the adventure where it belongs.
I would say rogue opportunities would be in looting, you try and be the first one to all bodies and sleight of hand anything you can get away with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dividing loot is something that will take time. Crashing and having to repatch a game (which can take much longer than most parties are willing to wait) is not uncommon. Having to leave in a hurry because something comes up isn't either, especially for people with children or families..
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should those people that need to leave just go? What if they are carrying an item that the party wants to sell later?
Selling things takes time anyway. So either they sell it when they come back and divide up the proceeds among those who were in the group, or they do a quick handoff. "Here, take this" is a lot faster than "Ok, so who wants what out of this pile?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Divide it up right then. Is it the party's fault that you have to leave on short notice?
Start a new bag.
How about an "auto divide" option for such cases?
How will rare, singular items be divided, in those circumstances, on the spot anyway?
Anything that prevents the bickering, right there in a dungeon, between every encounter is good with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you mean a set of options choosen at the start and everything is "auto" after that?
Yes. If there were fairly elaborate ways for each player to filter the items they're interested in, that would be even better.
I still think that there should be "somewhere" a rogue can try sleight of hand, though.
I don't have a problem with a Rogue being able to pilfer an item or two if he has uninterrupted and relatively private access to the corpse for a period of time. If I walked around a corner and saw a Rogue standing over a dead body, I'd certainly expect that he'd already helped himself to something valuable :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the key is to make anything singular, or low quantity to be useless for a solo player or small group. All 'rare' items should be exclusively for settlements. And the reward isn't: 1 'Sword of Awesome' the reward is components to a structure that manufactures the 'Sword of Awesome' for your members to have.
All other loot should basically be coin and salvageable items(which I believe is the current plan).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valkenr, that's an interesting idea. At first blush, it seems reasonable. In general, I am very fond of the idea of most if not all loot being easily divisible with each character getting an equal portion.
How would that work for a component that is worth 5000 coin? One for each party member? What if I bring in 20?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The third person pc doesn't necessarily have to physically be present...
Think of it as an escrow/arbitration service, contractual. Everything looted goes into a common pool, like a group inventory system. At the end of the run, or at a pre-agreed time everyone gets to look over all the valuables and bid money. The money goes into a pile and at the end the money is all divided equally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The difference, is instead of very rare components for specific recipes, you have very rare components to build a settlement instillation/upgrade, that takes regular components to make very rare items.
I would like "very rare" to be turned into "takes a long time and lots of components and training"
As an example Eve uses a total of about 9 or 10 different ores for most things, none is extremely rare however it takes a load to make the really good items.
To mimic this you can have the idea of refining basic ingredients, for instance you skin a dragon and get a 1000 fragments of dragon hide,
you may be able using your leather work skills to turn this into 100 pieces of basic dragon leather, or 10 pieces of fine dragon leather or 1 piece of exquisite dragon leather.
This way drops don't need to be rare
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@ZenPagan
The third person pc doesn't necessarily have to physically be present. The idea is that if everyone isn't happy about loot distribution, where one person gets "all the good stuff," there is a majority vote to have either some or all items sent to this third party, who then gives each member of the party a fraction of the overall value in gold, so if there are 2 people, one gets half, the other gets half.
The third party, in accepting the item, essentially completes the transaction and gives you the money. The game automatically transfers the money when the item is given to him.The players could then go and attempt to buy the item from him, assuming he hasn't sold it, and he could sell it in whatever manner he sees fit, since he bought it.
As for what to do with the item in the time it takes to get to this third person, I would propose some kind of mutual loot box that people have to pay dire consequences to loot from, which no one has access to without group consent.
Are you suggesting basically that the group has someone who they agree will serve as the arbiter of any dispute they can't resolve among themselves? That's a good idea for several reasons.
I really hate the idea of making things hugely divisible and fungible; we won't be killing the same dragon repeatedly, and it doesn't make sense to talk about having 98 bits and only needing two more bits of dragon tooth to make a dagger.
@DeciusBrutus Yes. Furthermore it gives the TN a reason to live.
I think I just invoked that law again.
So basically you want to replace the squabbling over loot division with squabbling over who is a fair arbiter?
Slightly tongue in cheek I know but frankly I can see as many issues with this system as just deciding to divide the loot between you.
For a start what happens if you decide as a group to use me...you take a long time before you are done only to find in the meantime I have gone off line. You now have a contract agreement for me to divide your loot but no me there to actually do it.
What happens if a member decides he isn't happy with the valuation being placed on one or more parts of the loot which is bound to happen. As I understand it the third party gets to keep all the loot and hands out coin.
I do not have anything against the system as long as it is not the only way to do it and it is a system that cannot be unilaterally decided on. (Many games, such as wow, allowed the party leader to unilaterally change the loot division method). Personally however I cannot see myself joining any endeavour with a group that wanted to do things this way it leaves far to much to the integrity or otherwise of some other player
So basically you want to replace the squabbling over loot division with squabbling over who is a fair arbiter?
Slightly tongue in cheek I know but frankly I can see as many issues with this system as just deciding to divide the loot between you.
For a start what happens if you decide as a group to use me...you take a long time before you are done only to find in the meantime I have gone off line. You now have a contract agreement for me to divide your loot but no me there to actually do it.
What happens if a member decides he isn't happy with the valuation being placed on one or more parts of the loot which is bound to happen. As I understand it the third party gets to keep all the loot and hands out coin.
I do not have anything against the system as long as it is not the only way to do it and it is a system that cannot be unilaterally decided on. (Many games, such as wow, allowed the party leader to unilaterally change the loot division method). Personally however I cannot see myself joining any endeavour with a group that wanted to do things this way it leaves far to much to the integrity or otherwise of some other player
Understanding your point, if you have TN in the game, their job should, at least in part, be to play the fair arbiter. If you hold the transaction in a town where they can't steal from you without getting killed, you then gain some level of insurance to protect your investment.
I'm not trying to sell it to you, just trying to explain how I think it could work. If another system seems to work better for you, then you do that.
@Aziom
I don't see what true neutral has to do with anything. A contract cannot decide whether the arbiter gave you a fair price or not all it can do is assert all the loot is given to the arbiter, he gives each player an equal amount of money.
The arbiter has a vested interest in giving you under the value of goods as he can then make a profit selling the stuff
In addition you do not know player a,b and c in your party havent already got an agreement on a metagame level where they argue for accepting a paltry sum off the arbiter and later he splits the difference between the real price and the low value price with them.
Hence why I say I wouldn't join a pug group who suggested this method of looting it is far too open to abuse. As I said I am happy for it to be in there as long as I can refuse to use it
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading this thread makes me more and more desire an auto-loot distribution among the party where both gold and items are immediately and randomly split among the party (or raid) when a NPC dies. Have nothing be BoE, except possibly quest-related items. This would make loot as fast as possible (allowing more time to attack/respond to the next thing), there would be no corpse to click, and reduce bickering (that will never be eliminated). Someone might feel it "unfair" to someone who goes LD, but you can always try to win over your party to your plight after you come back.
Keep it simple, have only one looting method, and let the market and player-to-player negotiation the best method for each party's loot distribution. If I'm a sorcerer and a Wis +6 item drops, of course I'd give it to the party priest, unless they already own one. However, I wouldn't be obligated to, I could always sell it or give it to an alt.
If you want to have a method for rogues to pilfer, I suggest that you make it a pickpocket mechanism either from an unaware mob/NPC or from a fellow PC, albeit high-risk and high-reward.
Depending a PUG player to be a "fair arbiter" is not possible.
Each should consume it's own. Conflict is not necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Conflict is not necessary.
I am of the complete opposite opinion of this. Conflict creates story lines and content.
You hate someone, you do something about it. Someone steals from you, you do something about it. Someone worships a deity diametrically opposed to yours, you punish them. Someone corners the market, you crush them economically. Someone starts to harvest resources from your area of operations, you burn it to the ground. All these things push the story forward and engage a myriad of others while doing so (i.e. soldiers, assassins, crafters, merchants...).
Conflict is good. Decisions are hard.
All I know is I can no longer post on this thread without breaking the primary rule set forth at the bottom of the posting section.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't see many PUGs happening in a game like this. I may be wrong, but I really don't see it happening when any person in the PUG could wait until just after a boss fight when you're low on health and spells to murder you and take your stuff along with anything you had looted in the dungeon.
We're not talking one of those situations where you're all one faction and the game won't physically allow you to attack each other. You could kill each other at any point if you wanted to try.
I think the PUG argument is essentially moot.
