| Shadowdweller |
Orcs aren't necessarily an unavoidable death sentence any more than shadows or spectres are depending upon equipment and character level. And OF COURSE certain tactics are going to be more effective than others. These lines of reasoning are a distraction - orcs are disproportionately damaging and threatening for the CR they have been assigned.
| Chengar Qordath |
Chengar Qordath wrote:Not to mention that giving the enemy favorable terrain usually merits a CR adjustment to the encounter.Actually, I believe CR is made with the assumption that the creature will be found on its natural habitat.
e.g.: The Sea Serpent has its CR based on the fact that it'll be faced in the ocean or another large body of water where it can live.
Ah, I guess I wasn't completely clear on which part of the post I was responding to. Or maybe I just got muddled halfway through writing my response.
Anyway, my point was that if you have something like terrain that restricts ranged combat/movement options so that you have to fight the orcs in melee, that might merit a CR adjustment.
| RJGrady |
The whole ferocity thing is starting to bug me. Orcs are supposed to be cowards who practice the better part of valor, not nigh-suicidal killing machines. Not only does it make them hard to balance, I don't even see how it fits. If you want to design an orc berserker, make them a barbarian.
This is not a kosher array that I can tell, but I think my orc at this point would be +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. That is playable, and brings them really close to classic AD&D orcs. In AD&D, half-orcs had very severe Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma maximums.
| Rynjin |
The whole ferocity thing is starting to bug me. Orcs are supposed to be cowards who practice the better part of valor, not nigh-suicidal killing machines.
Er, wut?
Are we talking about the same Orcs?
Orcs are aggressive, callous, and domineering. Bullies by nature, they respect strength and power as the highest virtues. On an almost instinctive level, orcs believe they are entitled to anything they want unless someone stronger can stop them from seizing it...Surrounded at all times by bitter enemies, orcs cultivate an attitude of indifference to pain, vicious tempers, and a fierce willingness to commit unspeakable acts of vengeance against anyone who dares to defy them...Orcs admire strength above all things...Orcs have few redeeming qualities. Most are violent, cruel, and selfish. Concepts such as honor or loyalty usually strike them as odd character flaws that tend to afflict members of the weaker races.
| Kimera757 |
In the 2e Monstrous Manual, they're described as:
Orcs are a species of aggressive mammalian carnivores that band together in tribes and live by hunting and raiding. Orcs believe that in order to survive they must expand their territory, and so they are constantly involved in wars against many enemies
Ascalaphus
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| RJGrady |
There is some variance in how they are portrayed.
Rules Cyclopedia Orc: "Orcs are afraid of anything larger or stronger than they are, but may be forced to fight by their leaders. ... They cannot use mechanical weapons (such as catapults) and only their leaders understand how to operate such devices." Intelligence: 7, Alignment: Chaotic.
AD&D: "Orcs are accomplished tunnelers and miners. They notice new or unusual constructions underground 33% of the time and spot sloping passages 25% of the time." Intelligence: average (low), Alignment: Lawful Evil. That works out to an Intelligence of 8 or 9.
However, the "orc as mindless killing machine" thing seems to be an importation into D&D. The first time I recall it is in connection with the Ork Berserker in the D&D miniatures set. Warhammer certainly treats orcs this way, and Everquest orcs are certainly relentless hard hitters. But in general, orcs are portrayed in D&D as aggressive, warlike bullies, not berserk machines.
Going by the above, a Basic D&D orc probably rates a -2 Intelligence and probably a Wisdom penalty as well. The AD&D orc might have no modifier to Intelligence and Stonecunning.
| Zhayne |
Unless PF did some major alterations (like practically stripped out and rebuilt), the CR system has never been particularly accurate. It's at best a loose guideline; many monsters are weak or strong for their CR rating.
As far as the orc stats go ... spellcasting is king. Orcs make rotten spellcasters. Ergo ...