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I was looking through my copy of Penumbra's Occult Lore a day or two ago, and I'm starting to feel like enough is enough: I NEED to better understand how some of the classes and magic systems are supposed to work - some, like the Astrologer and Elementalist and the entertaining Arcane Healer and Computer NPC Classes, I mostly understand; for others, I seem to have failed my Spellcraft checks. Is there anybody out there who's familiar with this book and been able to make sense of it?
Of particular fixation to me is the "Gleaner", the very compelling-sounding tradition of abstract elven necromancy. I get that you pick up leftover souls, make lots of little boxes for them to reside in, and get some token low-level spells - but that's nowhere near enough to make a complete new type of magician on par with what else exists. Where is the power? What is the allure of the Gleaner's abilities? What is the outcome of all this hard work that's so complex they provided an extra character sheet page just to help deal with it?
I wouldn't mind some help understanding some of the other forms of magic in the book as well.
Replied in your other thread, copying here in case you've abandoned it.
Near as I could tell, the real advantage was when you got the spells that allowed you to take on the abilities of the souls you were nurturing. If I recall correctly, you got a variant on Tensers' Transformation for most PC classes, assuming that you had a soul of the appropriate type. You could also use any knowledge or skills the souls had, though that power is highly dependent on the actual adventure. I do remember getting the impression that the class was not at all suited for a dungeon crawl style adventure, though- and keep in mind that this is a 3.0 book, so the mechanics are already well behind PF power levels. I'll probably give it another look-through in a while...
The thing that made the Gleaner a really attractive class to me was the non-mechanical potential in it- talking with potentially centuries-old spirits is an absolutely fascinating thought. Are there gleaners who get called in to harvest heads of state, the religious elite, or aristocratic families, to preserve their knowledge for future generations to consult with? Are there some immortal gleaners (Dragons, Warforged equivalents, etc) who have acquired more collected knowledge than any library? Is there a potentially lucrative business for adventuring gleaners to kill, harvest, and resurrect certain important people, then trade the remains to these immortal collectors?
It's something I've pondered trying to convert, but I haven't been able to find the time it would take to make it adventure-worthy.
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Replied in your other thread, copying here in case you've abandoned it.
Thanks, I had.
Interesting information so far - if the class isn't actually "adventure-worthy" as written, I don't think it would be too hard to fix it.
Anyone else know anything?
How about about Magical Imagination, Oneiromancy, and/or Sympathetic Magic?
I haven't taken a look into the book for ages, but from what I recall, the Gleaner is incredibly weak at low levels. The only boni he gets from his souls are for skills, and there is not much you can do with it. But as Parka wrote, the roleplaying opportunities are great. I think Keith Baker wrote the class; maybe you could ask him?
I know that for me, conversion is rather difficult. I'd like to keep the Pathfinder tradition of not using XP costs for anything, and that really is the primary means of advancing spirits. Spiritual Education wouldn't work for many reasons- losing charms means all lower-level advancements were suddenly made worthless. Gold is the only obvious mechanism left, but it feels wrong.
In order for the gleaner to be suitable for dungeon-crawl/action style adventuring, it really ought to have offensive or utility abilities of its own. Linking the Spiritstone to the Bonded Object mechanics of the Wizard and giving it some spellcasting thematically related to what it was doing before might work; losing the Spiritstone can still wipe out the bonded spirits like it did before. Thematically related spells can be necromancy-flavored versions of Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, Sift (they look where you tell them), Keen Senses (they tell you what they see), Seek Thoughts, etc. Spirits can provide some bonus spells based on their properties, like Crafter's Fortune or Brilliant Inspiration, etc., but this quickly balloons into a terrible accounting nightmare, not to mention potentially create all the wrong motivations.
There is still the major roadblock that you don't contribute meaningful damage in a fight (especially low-mid levels), and you're pretty bad at helping keep people alive during a fight. Even giving it Cure and Inflict spells or Rogue base attack doesn't fix this to my liking.
...and how would I go about doing that?I think Keith Baker wrote the class; maybe you could ask him?
Your Google-Fu is weak, Grasshopper. ;)
http://keith-baker.com/contact-me
I also remember indistinctly that he already wrote something about the class somewhere on the net.
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I know that for me, conversion is rather difficult. I'd like to keep the Pathfinder tradition of not using XP costs for anything, and that really is the primary means of advancing spirits. Spiritual Education wouldn't work for many reasons- losing charms means all lower-level advancements were suddenly made worthless. Gold is the only obvious mechanism left, but it feels wrong.
In order for the gleaner to be suitable for dungeon-crawl/action style adventuring, it really ought to have offensive or utility abilities of its own. Linking the Spiritstone to the Bonded Object mechanics of the Wizard and giving it some spellcasting thematically related to what it was doing before might work; losing the Spiritstone can still wipe out the bonded spirits like it did before. Thematically related spells can be necromancy-flavored versions of Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, Sift (they look where you tell them), Keen Senses (they tell you what they see), Seek Thoughts, etc. Spirits can provide some bonus spells based on their properties, like Crafter's Fortune or Brilliant Inspiration, etc., but this quickly balloons into a terrible accounting nightmare, not to mention potentially create all the wrong motivations.
There is still the major roadblock that you don't contribute meaningful damage in a fight (especially low-mid levels), and you're pretty bad at helping keep people alive during a fight. Even giving it Cure and Inflict spells or Rogue base attack doesn't fix this to my liking.
Well, you've basically told me what I was afraid of hearing about the class.
Still, what you've got is a swarm of tiny ghosts - you should be able to work all kinds of badassery with them if the class design would only let you, especially at higher levels. They should be able to generate deflection AC, insight bonuses to just about any sort of roll, damage shields, energy storms both positive and negative, you name it.
At that point, they start to look a lot like a fetish-based Death Mage (SGG).
At that point, they start to look a lot like a fetish-based Death Mage (SGG).(SGG)?
Super Genius Games. The Death Mage may very well be one answer as to how to represent something like their abilities, although the Death Mage spell list really screams "fear, bones and shadows" while the Gleaner tries to evoke a "reincarnation" and "wisdom of the ancestors" feel to it.
Making another Pale Road centered around Gleaning, using the Fetish mechanics but re-flavoring it around the idea of the Spiritstone, with the passive abilities like those of the original class. Early on, they can have the ability to take a pool of daily rerolls to certain actions (skills, etc) from the aid of minor spirits they have Gleaned. At higher levels, they can converse with specific individuals they have Gleaned for information. Fetish powers might relate to taking on other aspects of Gleaned individuals, such as physical appearance, temporarily using class abilities, and the ability to cast known spells of the Gleaned spirits on a limited basis.
Other, unique Fetish options might include attaching a Gleaned spirit into a magic item to turn it into an intelligent magic item with unique powers, or creating a Haunt using Gleaned spirits. These really go sideways with the intended theme, though, but the ideas are there.
Gleaner-fu is dangerous, and its knowledge is closely guarded.
Re-read the bits about those forces wielding it from the shadows, and let your mind chew on that a while. Plus a gleaner working to unleash a new minor god into the mix is not something to mess with lightly. His/her enemies are going to be just as mighty...and you might be one of them.
Secrets of the dead become open books. It's like getting access to someone's hard drive while the computer's motherboard is being replaced. By the time you're resurrected, someone else knows you better than you'd like.
In a political world, were Kings have power and the ace can find you, secrets are power, and things will get freaky fast.