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the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals.
"+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int" would be more thematic for the Pathfinder Orc - they care little for education or even rational thought. It would also explain why their arcane casters (Witchdoctors) are sorcerers rather then witches/wizards.
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it took us a party of 15 7th level 32 point 3.5 PCs to take on both Xanesha and the Sandpoint devil at different parts of 3.5 original Rise of the Runelords.
The problem with the 3.5 Xanesha is not just that she is overpowered (which she is), but ...
She is encountered at the top of the Clocktower - so the party cannot retreat and is flying so the party cannot easily close.
The Medusa mask does not help these problems.
Level 4 Kobold Warrior with a crossbow, cheap armor, and a tanglefoot bag. CR1 as written. Take a few of those and pair it with this guy. The fight has wiped a level 3 party with full resources.
Shaman Hayash CR 3
XP 800
Kobold Cleric 4 (Asmodeus)
LN Small humanoid (kobold)
Init +2; Senses Perception +3
DEFENSE
AC 14 (18), touch 13, flat-footed 12 (16) (+4 armor - if mage armor is active, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 size)
hp 26 (4d8+4)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +7
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee light mace +1 (1d4-3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft
Special Attacks: channel negative energy 5/day (DC 14, 2d6 [+4 if target is denied Dexterity bonus to AC])
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +7)
6/day— divine vessel
Cleric Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +7)
2nd - ant haul, cure moderate wounds, produce flame (D), sound burst (DC 15)
1st — bless, command (DC 14), cure light wounds x2, burning hands (D)
0 (at will) — purify food and drink, resistance, read magic, virtue
D domain spell; Domains Fire, Magic(divine)
STATISTICS
Str 4, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB -1; CMD 11
Feats Selective Channeling, Toughness
Skills Knowledge(religion) +7, Linguistics +1, Spellcraft +6
Languages Kobold, Common
SQ light sensitivity
Gear light mace, Bracelet of the High Shaman, robe, 47 sp, 2 days trail rations
Bracelet of the High Shaman - command word mage armor
Level 4 Kobold Warrior with a crossbow, cheap armor, and a tanglefoot bag. CR1 as written. Take a few of those and pair it with this guy. The fight has wiped a level 3 party with full resources.
Did this actually happen?
diehard is a pretty poor feat, essentially you give up self preservation for roughly an extra 2 hit dice worth of HP with the downside that when you lose them, you DO Die.Diehard is a poor feat for a player character. Here's a hint: Not all character options are designed with the PCs in mind. Diehard is a fantastic feat for a DM wishing to beef up mooks so that they present the semblance of a threat.
Yeah it is great for that. There seems an oddly high (fluke) chance for die hard monsters to roll a crit while on negatives. I'll take you with me!
the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals."+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int" would be more thematic for the Pathfinder Orc - they care little for education or even rational thought. It would also explain why their arcane casters (Witchdoctors) are sorcerers rather then witches/wizards.
Belkzen orcs are getting into trade, negotiation, not always resorting to violence first. Somewhat going a viking route actually.
Removed inappropriate post. Do not namecall or insult other posters.
Belkzen orcs are getting into trade, negotiation, not always resorting to violence first. Somewhat going a viking route actually.the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals."+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int" would be more thematic for the Pathfinder Orc - they care little for education or even rational thought. It would also explain why their arcane casters (Witchdoctors) are sorcerers rather then witches/wizards.
Not really.
What they are into is Intimidation, witch is also a Charisma based skill.
Level 4 Kobold Warrior with a crossbow, cheap armor, and a tanglefoot bag. CR1 as written. Take a few of those and pair it with this guy. The fight has wiped a level 3 party with full resources.Did this actually happen?
Killed 3 of the 4. Staved off the wipe by neglecting to use a potion to bring Hayash back up.
Everyone wont fail sure, but your 10 str caster can go down in 2 failure.
Yeah but a tiger pounce at CR 4 is likely to kill you outright if you're a squishy caster. I'm not really seeing where is is really all that terrible. Mummies are worse and I don't think they're over-CRed either. :P
EDIT: Actually I'm a little curious. What do you think of Basilisks? :P
I think a witchfire with something to hide in is pretty dangerous for a CR9 encounter.
With cover its looking at around 28 AC, 115 HP, incorporeal, and flying. It summons creatures(2 wisps) that deal touch attacks, and it's attacks deal a staggering level of damage to non-fire prepared parties. It deals an average of 28 damage (42 if hit previously and failed a DC22 will save) with a ranged touch(+13) that also potentially sickens the person hit.
A level 7 party of 4 against one of these seems like a really, really tough fight for most level 7 parties I've seen.
Belkzen orcs are getting into trade, negotiation, not always resorting to violence first. Somewhat going a viking route actually.the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals."+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int" would be more thematic for the Pathfinder Orc - they care little for education or even rational thought. It would also explain why their arcane casters (Witchdoctors) are sorcerers rather then witches/wizards.Not really.
What they are into is Intimidation, witch is also a Charisma based skill.
Trade isn't just about intimidation. Paizo has been expanding them out a bit, very dark ages warriors taking up trade and establishing networks.
Trade isn't just about intimidation. Paizo has been expanding them out a bit, very dark ages warriors taking up trade and establishing networks.Belkzen orcs are getting into trade, negotiation, not always resorting to violence first. Somewhat going a viking route actually.the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals."+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int" would be more thematic for the Pathfinder Orc - they care little for education or even rational thought. It would also explain why their arcane casters (Witchdoctors) are sorcerers rather then witches/wizards.Not really.
What they are into is Intimidation, witch is also a Charisma based skill.
This is so. In which case, the above "specialized array" (ARG p. 219) still works - Orc would need decent Wisdom and Charisma to continue evolving in that direction.
the reason for the charisma penalty instead of the intelligence penalty is for some of the following reasons
orcs are more feral, meaning worse people skills
tribal hunters, though not formally educated, have a semblance of tribal education that is a different kind of smart from academic
even with a charisma penalty, they can take a feat to use strength for intimidation
Witches, the most common and most fitting orcish casters, are int based, the other shamans, known as wizards, probably make their spellbooks out of leather and use their own orcish script. neither of these rely on people skills, but can utilize predatory cunning
druids barbarians, and rangers, though not int based, have a more feral education that uses a variety of wilderness based skills that neccessitate cunning more than people skills.
plus, orcs are more smashy less talky.
the reason for the charisma penalty instead of the intelligence penalty is for some of the following reasons
orcs are more feral, meaning worse people skills
tribal hunters, though not formally educated, have a semblance of tribal education that is a different kind of smart from academic
even with a charisma penalty, they can take a feat to use strength for intimidationWitches, the most common and most fitting orcish casters, are int based, the other shamans, known as wizards, probably make their spellbooks out of leather and use their own orcish script. neither of these rely on people skills, but can utilize predatory cunning
druids barbarians, and rangers, though not int based, have a more feral education that uses a variety of wilderness based skills that neccessitate cunning more than people skills.
plus, orcs are more smashy less talky.
Enough derail! This needs a lifeboat thread.
(...) and a certain AP has them as a random encounter at level 1 (...)
Yes, I think the most random encounters are (too) hard for the PCs and there are some high CR storry encounter which are (too) easy.
For example after 3 rounds with the last random encounter (in the kingmaker kampagne) winter wolf (CR 5) (breath weapon 6d6 cold and trip attacks 1d8+7+1d6 cold), the group (Lvl 6+) was nearly dead and after the fight the group was running out of resources and heropoints.
But I also think that it is a question of the PCs (min-max optimized PCs or flavour PCs), the party (combat/magic/social/flavour/...) and their equipment (standard or artifacts), too.
And last but not least it is a question of playing the encounters ("friendly and stupid or deadly and intelligent"). As a DM I can use a (too) low CR encounter to kill a PC or I can let the PC win against a (too) hard and high CR encounter.
if we're going back to 3.5 there was this one undead with an "aura of drowning" that more or less killed everything around it who didn't make a DC Absurd fort. save. I think it was called "Drowned" and it was like CR 7 or something close.
The drowned had 20 HD, too.
Which book is it from?
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Monster Manual III. Actually, reading the source material helps here. Drowned were CR 9, and their aura was DC 10 Con check every round with DC +1 for each consequent round. Failing the check makes you 0 hp and unconscious in the first round, -1 and dying in the second round and DEAD DEAD in the third round. Plenty of time for your Warblade/Abjurant Cheesecake/Ur-Priest/Cleric buddies to handle the problem, honestly.
Of course, being 3.5 undead it has a stupid amount of HD and HP, because giving undead no stat bonus on hp was such a stellar idea.
So nothing special, really.
Drowned could be very tough in tight spaces (glub glub glub), or under water, but I never saw a party have real trouble. A few get incapped, they get saved, monster killed, on we go.
I think the [alignment] templates (celestial, fiendish, half fiend, etc.) smite attacks can be insane if their base creature has a lot of attacks. For example, I have been stating up a fiendish young green dragon. For the most part, the creature is within CR, but if it full attack/smite/power attack, it can do CRAZY damage, with a good chance of hitting for most attacks.
Monster Manual III. Actually, reading the source material helps here. Drowned were CR 9, and their aura was DC 10 Con check every round with DC +1 for each consequent round. Failing the check makes you 0 hp and unconscious in the first round, -1 and dying in the second round and DEAD DEAD in the third round. Plenty of time for your Warblade/Abjurant Cheesecake/Ur-Priest/Cleric buddies to handle the problem, honestly.
Of course, being 3.5 undead it has a stupid amount of HD and HP, because giving undead no stat bonus on hp was such a stellar idea.
So nothing special, really.
Sure, Drowned are dangerous, but they are killable.
Tarrasque has nothing on Bleakborn.Bleakborn are CR 7 (52 hp, AC 27, +10 hit slams[1d6+9 + 2d6 cold], take this cold damage is hit them in melee as well) in 3.5, but they always come back. Unlike Tarrasque who can wished in 3.5 to die after dealing enough damage, they actually can't die.
They come back if something living walks within 30 ft some time in the future.