Advice to players

[Lanith]

Or, how to make the game run smoothly.

1. If you're new to the system, don't make the most complicated monk/magus/oracle winter witch you possibly can.
1a. Don't make complicated characters for first time players. Heck, just don't make characters for other pepeople.

2. If you're rolling dice know where to look on your character to find your bonus (attack, skills, damage, etc)
2a. If everyone has to stop and watch you shake your dice...shake...shake...shake...you're doing things wrong.

3. Don't play someone else's character. Ever!

4. Talking among players is great. The GM is not here to pass messages from you to the rogue on your left; talk to them.

Do your part to help make things smooth and fun, cause no scenario goes as planned. GMs have all the players, NPCs, and story to take care of.

Lanith

[Mysterious Stranger]

Lanith wrote:

1a. Don't make complicated characters for first time players. Heck, just don't make characters for other pepeople.

Lanith

This is bad advice. Many new players do not know how to create a character so end up not enjoying themselves. If your first experience with the game is frustrating you probably will not play again. A lot of people who have played are also not good at creating characters so also do not enjoy the game.

Better advice is if you are creating a character for someone else listen to them to find out what they want to play. Work with them to create a character they are excited to play.

[The black raven]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Better advice is if you are creating a character for someone else listen to them to find out what they want to play. Work with them to create a character they are excited to play.

I agree with this, and even better, find out what they want their character to be good at.

[Lamontius]

I disagree with both of you, mysterious stranger and the black raven

Example:
new player comes to PFS event
player is assisted by one of the GMs in making a character
player expresses interest in pokemon
GM helps player to roll up a summoner

new player's group and GM spend most of the session helping the new player in executing summon spells, understanding her eidolon, casting buffs and unfortunately, negating a lot of the things she wants to try to do because they are absolutely against the rules. session runs very long, very slow and is bogged down by constant assistance to the summoner player

new player becomes confused, overwhelmed and flustered throughout the session

this player did not understand their character and did not enjoy the session. the experience was frustrating.

I understand what you two are saying, but you have to take into account that a GM or experienced player may not have the time to instruct and learn up and new player on a complicated class such as summoner, magus, alchemist, etc before a session commences, especially in convention and/or PFS settings

in these cases, simplicity is best. have them play at level 1, help them to roll up a rogue, fighter, sorcerer or cleric, something simple so they can grasp the concepts while getting involved and having a good time. Then, a session or two down the line, help them to use their newfound knowledge to develop a true character of their own creation.

[Imperious3]

I think a compromise is probably the best bet. My first character was a sub-par DEX-Fighter that wasn't good at much and even though it was super simple to play, I didn't love to do so. However, I also couldn't quite wrap my head around the core rules plus the magic rules, wizard rules, etc. (I've got them down now, of course). The DM might want to offer to help create the character, but if the player declines, leave them to their own devices (not that anyone here would force their help on someone).

[Akerlof]

Lamontius wrote:

I disagree with both of you, mysterious stranger and the black raven

Example:
new player comes to PFS event
player is assisted by one of the GMs in making a character
player expresses interest in pokemon
GM helps player to roll up a summoner

I think it's best to combine "Work with them to create a character they are excited to play," and "Don't make complicated characters for first time players."

I have a series of questions when I'm helping a new player pick a character that goes something like:

-- Do you like to hit things over their head or deal with combat from afar?

-- Cast magic spells or use physical prowess?

-- Chat with NPCs, use a bunch of skills outside of combat, or leave that to others?

Get them to come up with a general concept of what kind of person their character is, and use that to make suggestions about what class, stats and skills to use to achieve the concept. You can direct them away from overly complicated things subtly, ("Pokemon doesn't really work in this game.") or just not offer complicated options. Stick to core rulebook classes, better yet, beginners box classes for their initial character.

You don't have to suggest a complicated class and build to get people playing something they're interested in and uniquely reflects their ideas.

Quote:

2. If you're rolling dice know where to look on your character to find your bonus (attack, skills, damage, etc)
2a. If everyone has to stop and watch you shake your dice...shake...shake...shake...you're doing things wrong.

2b. Don't just put the basic modifier for your weapon on your character sheet, pre calculate the modifiers you will likely have and list them.

For example, I have an archer, my character sheet entries for his composite longbow look like:

Comp Longbow (precise shot) +10 (+11) 1d8+6 (1d8+7) 20/x3
Rapid Shot (precise shot) +8/+8 (+9/+9) 1d8+6/1d8+6 (1d8+7/1d8+7) 20/x3
Deadly Aim (precise shot) +8 (+9) 1d8+10 (1d8+11) 20/x3
Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim (precise Shot) +6/+6 (+7/+7) 1d8+10/1d8+10 (1d8+11/1d8+11) 20/x3
Bless? ___ +1 Attack
Inspire Courage? ___ +1 Attack/+1 Damage
Haste? ___ +1 Attack/Extra Attack at max
Other? ___
Other? ___

That gives me my base numbers and a reminder of any buffs I have to add, striking a balance between minimising the calculations I need to do and keeping things easy to find.

[The black raven]

Lamontius wrote:

I understand what you two are saying, but you have to take into account that a GM or experienced player may not have the time to instruct and learn up and new player on a complicated class such as summoner, magus, alchemist, etc before a session commences, especially in convention and/or PFS settings

in these cases, simplicity is best. have them play at level 1, help them to roll up a rogue, fighter, sorcerer or cleric, something simple so they can grasp the concepts while getting involved and having a good time. Then, a session or two down the line, help them to use their newfound knowledge to develop a true character of their own creation.

I think it is well within an experienced GM or player's ability to understand beforehand the pitfalls of the character the new player wants to play and to warn him away from it and guide him toward a more simple character that can still recreate part of what the new player wants his character to be good at.

Or maybe the new player's character concept is not really feasible and they can find out together another build that the player can be interested in.

I feel that an experienced player or GM as a great wealth of experience which he can use to the benefits of new players. Not doing so is a waste, IMO.

[David_Bross]

If you have someone who has never played pathfinder, or any d20 game, you should talk to them about what they envision their character doing, and if they don't have a good idea of where to start, tell them some iconic roles (fighting in melee, firing a gun/bow, aiding their allies, summoning monsters, fighting with magic, etc).

Once they've picked a role, explore various differences, do they fight with a sword and shield, a polearm, etc.

Then quickly go over a somewhat optimal way of doing what they want to do and have them write down the stats,feats, and skills for doing so. Ask them if they want to be able to talk diplomatically, if they want to be able to scare the piss out of someone, etc. I almost never let a player build a character without perception, but I do so by asking them "do you want to be able to see danger or just get attacked?".

You should build the character with them, such that they understand the concept, but aren't suffering from not knowing how pathfinder actually plays. The people I've done this for have had solid introductions to pathfinder.

Also the advice 2 posts above is generally very solid, but I strongly disagree with the advice of "steer clear of complicated things". If people have an idea in their head of what they want to do, let them. A summoner isn't really that much more difficult than a druid, or anything else really. Just help them build and understand it. I do encourage warning them, but roleplaying is often about an image they have in their head, and if that image is them doing something, let them to the best of the abilities within the rules.

[ExposedWires]

Lamontius wrote:

new player comes to PFS event

player is assisted by one of the GMs in making a character
player expresses interest in pokemon

...THEN

GM asks about their other interests.

What kind of GM would build a summoner for a player that liked pokemon? It's not analogous. In the context of pokemon, you don't really play the trainer. The trainer is just a plot device for you to get in a bunch of fights as a bunch of different pokemon. If you want to find a class that captures the essence of pokemon, you don't give them two characters with wildly different skills that you need to control on the battlefield at the same time. Oh, and they need each other to survive. If one dies, you probably lost the other one.

A better choice for a guy like that would be sorcerer. More versatile than a fighter and you get to pull out elemental stuff when it feels appropriate.

Sorcerer used Fireball on the deck of a crowded ship! It's super effective!