Attack: Fighter is consistent in hitting and damage output. The other combat classes get better bonuses, but situationally so. Roughly equal.The Barabarian gets rage, which at higher levels can be used pretty much all the time.
At higher levels, yes, that is often the case. He also pays for his rage, and it maxes out offensively at the same level as the fighter's weapon training. He also gets a lot more hit points from it, of course.
The Paladin's smite can also be used nearly all the time and at higher levels he has enough smites to be able to use them as often as he wants. So, only the Rangers Bonus is really situational.
Paladin's smite effects only one evil creature at a time, so he's not very good against hoards of creatures, or even moderate numbers of them - and not if they are not evil, either. He never gets so many that he can use them as often as he wants, and at lower levels he has to be very sparing with them.
In addition, both Paladin and Ranger get d spells.
Which is a point in favour of their utility more than anything else, not necessarily combat power. I will concede sulf-buffing is nice, but it takes time.
AC: Fighter gets excellent AC, if he plays his cards right. Paladin is slightly behind him. Ranger is behind, and barbarian is variable.Only if he goes sword and board, which will nerf his DPR. OTOH if the Paladin goes sword and Board, he still gets the same smite bonus, plus he has access to spells, etc.
No, I was thinking in two-handed terms. A paladin gets as much out of going two-handed as a fighter does, especially when he can't use his smite. A sword & board paladin that is shield-bashing is pretty devastating though - but then so is a sword & board fighter. Armour training means the fighter can make more out of a decent dexterity than the paladin can, heavy armour use puts him ahead of the ranger and barbarian.
Ranger also has access to spells.
Again, this is more about utility than combat power, although it does have a bearing.
I don't particularly want the Fighter to be able to do "something else" if you mean something out of combat. That can be left to build for those that want it. If I play a fighter, it is because I want to fight, and nothing else. I would agree that Fighter needs "something else" Combat wise, what that is needs to be thought out very carefully.
This is the most complained about feature of the fighter - not their AC, attacks, damage, etc. It's all down to lack of utility: paladins and rangers have spells and animal companions. Rangers and barbarians have skills. The fighter only fights. He;s good at it, but it's all he does.
Regarding The low Will save, Rogues also get a low will save. despite the fact that they are even more underpowered than fighters, i have not heard anyone say they need a fix in this regard. Every class should have a weakness, this is reasonable as the fighters; all you need is team mates who are willing to help protect you against this.
There are loads of threads on the boards about the rogue. The three weakest classes by acclaim in order of weakest first are monk, rogue, fighter. Monk has the most threads, then rogue, then fighter, all talking about how to fix them or make them more relevant.
I have been playing D&D since it first came out in the UK. In all that time, I have never heard anyone suggest that fighters should be able to do more than just fight...until now.Rogues need a fix. Monks need a fix. Fighters need a fix. Bad saves are part of rogues problem. Someone said it now.
I want the fighter to fight... then I want to him to be useful for more, because this game has more than combat. Combat is a good portion, but to be honest the fighter isn't really amazing at that and his out of combat utility is only good if you waste your general feats and money on it. Which is pretty meh if you ask me. I play a barbarian because I want to fight, doesn't mean I want him to be a mentally deficient drooling moron outside of combat.
Ditto here, on both counts. But Pathfinder is not the same game as original D&D, and it expanded what a lot of characters could do. This gave paladins, rangers, and barbarians more things that they could do out of combat. They all balance with the fighter in combat, but otherwise they can do a lot more out of it. Fighters need a bit more they can do out of combat to balance this, and because frankly, playing a character that can't do much in the non-combat sections of adventures is boring in those phases.
If you are really serious about it, invest in higher INT to get more Skill points. Play Human to get +1 Skill point/level. Invest your FC bonus in Skill points. Any/All of those will get you some utility out of combat. Put enough in UMD and at higher levels you can use wands, giving you more utility. These are all within the existing system, so I see no need for a fix there.
Do the other martial classes have to make these sacrifices to do out of combat things? Then why should the fighter have to?
Personally, If I played a fighter, I would just want to play for Combat. Leave the other stuff to other players, that's what they are there for.
So you are cool with sitting out of the game for long periods. Great. But some of us want to participate in the whole game whatever class we are playing.
OTOH I would expect to rule in combat as a result, and I just don't. Paladins are better in combat, Babrbarians are better in combat and both of them have some out of combat utility too.
I've yet to see this demonstrated on the boards or in practice. The other classes can hold their own, and in situations they can be better than the fighter, but only in situations - your contention that paladins can smite as often as they like just isn't true. Barbarian rage is good but not so good as to eclipse the fighter, especially not considering the other combat tricks he can pull.
At higher levels Rage is almost limitless, and makes the Barb have as much hit/damage as the Fighter, more HP, and better Will saves (but less AC).
At lower levels Rage is very limited, but makes the Barb have more hit/damage than the Fighter, more HP, and better Will saves (but less AC), and without Rage is exactly equal to a Fighter given stats are the same.
I'm not seeing the grand flaw in the Barbarian here.
Can't Urban Barbarian get a +4 to dex easy at the sacrifice of some con.(+2 from rage, +2 from courageous), then get raging vitality for another +4 to constitution(same gig).
By the way magic items are set up, a Paladin can make use of Dexterity up to 24 if he wants to.
Fighter armor training for dex is completely unneccessary to make maximum use of Dexterity. It's one of the continuing problems with the class...a class ability that is completely unneccessary is like not having the ability at all.
==Aelryinth
Well the d20 system was always designed with a group of characters in mind. This means that each person in a party can pick a role and do it well. Fighters are not set up to do a ton of damage but they get plenty of feats to make up for it.
But with those feats, they can do a ton of damage very easily indeed.
The most satisfying thing a fighter can do is control the battle field. Using reach weapons and tripping everyone that tries to run past you can win the fight by keeping the monsters from ever getting into a good position. Now the sorcerer has time to unleash hell without any AoO to worry about.
Er, that's actually a lot harder to do than you think, especially if the enemy can't be tripped. Plus the sorcerer just has to throw down some spell like web or black tentacles for the same effect.
Also as a fighter make the wizard with item creation feats your best friend. Why? so he can make you boots of ethereal jaunt and freedom of movement ring. Now you can jump to the enemy spell caster and ruin his day round one by disarming his staff full of lightning bolts.
Usually the best thing a party can do is invest in item creation feats. Problem is the best people to take said feats may have other ideas. It's the best use for the Leadership feat ever: take a wizard cohort with masses of crafting feats.
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Dwarven fighters increase their saves by +2 for everything that counts (ie magic or spell like abilities). Take the Blood of old (or some such similarly named trait) from dwarves of Golarion source book and it becomes +3. They get bonus' to con and wis too which means better saves. Against magic, my Level 6 Dwarf fighter has Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +9. He has gear, but only cloak of resistance. Took Iron will and a trait for reflex.
Skills tend to have static DC's for the most part. Handle animal is a fighter skill, useful in all sorts of situations, Know. Dungeoneering, Know. Engineering are quite helpful depending on situations. Intimidate is a social skill, and with one feat, can be based off Strength. Guess what, fighters have feats in spades.
Too many classes have lots of skill points. They overlap so often that they really become superfluous in a situation. When the DC is only 15 to learn something from Diplomacy, and three players roll over 15, you still only get one success and two guys wondering why they bothered. Skills are overrated in these boards as something to be concerend about. Except perception. Fighters should get perception.
A single weapon coice gets them highly proficient with wepons from that category. Lots of weapons in those categories ie anything that's an axe, or anything that's a bow etc. They get to choose multiple categories throughout their career. If you run AP's you'd be mad not to choose swords to be honest. So many swords in the AP's, you're bound to have one pop up.
Given the inbuilt ability to use weapons in these classes so well, you don't need weapon focus etc. They're trap feats to be honest. You're better off getting a weapon with mods to damage (Holy being the choicest). Everyone benefits from a holy weapon, but no one can make one sing like a fighter built to use that weapon type.
Of course, you can take weapon focus etc. for a weapon type you haven't chosen as a class preference. This means you can be really good with many weapons if you really want to.
Fighters have the feats to build as flexible as you want.
There are so many feats and archetypes now that you can do what you want with a fighter and be very good at it.
Pathfinder fixed fighters so they're less dependent on certain types of gear. They can get better AC with built in class features now. Therefore they don't need to spend lots on ever increasing Armour +'s to boost AC equal to or better than ther allies.
They don't need to buy increasing +'s to weapons either, unlike other martials who do, if they want to consistantly hit at higher levels. This is because those pluses are built into the fighter. There are feats that mitigae DR as well, before you start bandying that as a necessesity for netter +'s. Oh, that's right, fighters have tons of feats.
This means fighters can afford to spend that gold on gear that shores up other weknesses. Things like flying, or hasting or seeing invisible opponents that everyone whinges about. Again, for invisibility, perception would be nice. Fighters should get perception.
Battlefield control comes from position and hitting things hard. That's not a fighters role, that's everyones role. Casters are better at battle field control. Fighters kill things better than casters. All those arguments about fight ending spells are only true when a fighter is there to actually kill the thing you made helpless. At least efficiently that is. You could always waste multiple spell slots to kill something that a fihter can do for you for free of course. If that's what you call intelligent casting then I guess its your game, go for it.
Fighters are equally effective against every opponent they face. Not just against favoured enemies, or evil ones you chose to smite, or when raging. Just everyone all the time. That's actually quite important in long adventures, particulalry in AP's or Pathfinder where what you face varies so very, very often.
Poorly built fighters are bad, I agree. But then a poorly built any class is bad. Fughters are great, don't forget it. Dwarven fighters in particular are great.
However, fighters could use perception.
Cheers
Edit - Forgot one thing. Having played through multiple high level games, particularly campaigns, lots of people overrate the necessity to full attack. Many of the iterative attacks are misses in my vast experience. This of course means Pounce is overrated on these boards as well. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but it requires a very specific build to get it. Honestly, you're better off with the Vital strike line in terms of successful damage after a move. This may vary if dual wielding though. Someone else can do the maths. In fact I'm sure someone will. I'd like to remind you though, statistics require massive sample points to get close to predicted values. Somewhere in excess fo 10000 rolls in fact. That's a lot of combat before your statistics become menaingful in a campaign. Just saying.
I don't have much to add to the debate, this is just a blanket statement about PF/3.5/3.0 in general. Why on earth any class begins play with so few Skill points just makes no sense. All classes with 2 SP per level should be bumped to 4 per.
FIGHTERS SHOULD HAVE PERCEPTION, heck all classes should have perception as a class skill.
Dwarven fighters increase their saves by +2 for everything that counts (ie magic or spell like abilities). Take the Blood of old (or some such similarly named trait) from dwarves of Golarion source book and it becomes +3. They get bonus' to con and wis too which means better saves. Against magic, my Level 6 Dwarf fighter has Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +9. He has gear, but only cloak of resistance. Took Iron will and a trait for reflex.
Those are Dwarven racial features though, not fighter class features. take away all the dwarf specific things and your down by 5, more than half of the saves are gone. Dwarves are great, but anyone can be a dwarf.
Pathfinder fixed fighters so they're less dependent on certain types of gear. They can get better AC with built in class features now. Therefore they don't need to spend lots on ever increasing Armour +'s to boost AC equal to or better than ther allies.
How so? The fighter never actually gets a better AC directly from the class feature. He has a higher max dex bonus and a lower armor check penalty.
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I actually like CMB fighters, but you have to REALLY concerntrate to keep them going at high levels.
Your listed trip fighter is going to run into a lot of problems, simply because his CMB won't scale as fast as monster's CMD. Once you have your Gloves of Dueling / Red Ioun Stone Slotted into a wayfinder and the greater variants of your CMBs of choice, you're kinda stuck. Meanwhile more and more large/huge/bigger/flying creatures will be introduced. Trip is 100% useless vs flying / incoporeal (which a lot of monsters start ot have).
I've found you can compensate for largeness / scaling, but you have to plan a LOT. Lore Warden was actually the biggest boon to this; his static +2 at 3rd and +2 extra every 4 levels helps a TON. But if you want to stay effective, you also have to plan out alts to trip (grapple is a great addition to the line for dealing with casters; a grappled caster is done unless they have someone to freedom of movement... at level 12 you should be about CMB +38 if you have planned correctly, making their concentration 38 + spell level, or 42 for a d door).
Invis is your other big issue, though that can be taken care of with potions eventually.
So again, fighters CAN be very strong; but it takes a lot of work (and they get less and less exciting if all they can do is damage, which most of them do).
I think, in comparison, wizards simply don't have to be as closely scruitnized as Fighters. Fighters can be numerically broken down VERY easily; wizards cannot. In my experience playing, I've seen far more dead wizards, because they are fairly squishy and some things can deal with their "Invisible-ness" or it isn't up. They have a wide arsenal of weapons, but can't have all deploed; so end up in situations where they are taken out of commission. With all the wizards/witches/sorcerers (except one) that I've seen in PFS this has been the case.
So someone who can numerically be scrutinized is going to be easier to trash-talk than the apparent "never ending bag of tricks" you see with Wizards. So don't sweat it, have fun, and make sure WHATEVER your speciaility is, you can do it very well.
FIGHTERS SHOULD HAVE PERCEPTION, heck all classes should have perception as a class skill.I feel sorry for the stealthy characters in your games, since everyone is super Perceptive and the opposed checks are so much harder to win.
Any NPC Enemy who is focusing on stealth will still more than likely win and they all should have a rough go of it. These checks are going to be opposed by "Adventurers". Most players will go out of there way to get perception as a class skill anyways and not all classes will be focusing on the Wisdom it takes to max it out.
Since there is no in game mechanic which compensates for this deficiency like a non-active perception/insight check it would just make sense, to me at least, for PC's to have some training in being well aware of there surroundings.
If not all classes at the very least most. Especially martially inclined classes. IMHO.
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But as to a fighting build...
Lore Warden - 11 Manuever Master. 1(Human to compare)
Str: 22 (19 +3 level-ups)
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Dex: 16 (alt trait to get +2 to 2 stats instead of a feat)
Con: 14
Chr: 7
+Will save / heirloom weapon (+2 trip glaive)
1) improved trip, combat reflexes
2) combat expertise, dodge
3) Mobility, Felling smash)
4) Spring attack, lose weapon focus for whirlwind attack
5 (MM 1) Improved Dirty Trick, Weapon Focus
7) Greater Trip, Greater Dirty trick
9) Improved Grapple, Swift Dirty Trick
11) Power attack, Wep Spec
So you can whirlwind down everyone around you, knock their weapons away as they fall, and hit pretty hard as well. You can dirty trick two of them too.
Your trip CMB is +12 (level) +6 (Lore warden) +2 (Wep spec) + 6 (str) + 3 (dex) +2 (heirloom) +4 feats, or +35 before magic items.
You will have a slotted ioun stone, gloves of dueling, a +2 str/dex belt, and a +3 weapon for a total of +9 extra, giving you a +44 on your trip; almost ready to go tarrasque-tripping :).
Against casters and incoporeals, you do solid damage and (for casters) can go in and grapple them down, probably at -20 so you can continue to fight others.
The MM adds the ability to do another Manuever (regardless), and lets you threaten close range even with a polearm... you won't be quite as good without your heirloom weapon, but your "secondary" weaponset should be Monk weapons anyway (so you only lose +6 or so vs close opponents). It also ups the all important saving throws by 2 each, which I agree is very important.
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Dwarven fighters increase their saves by +2 for everything that counts (ie magic or spell like abilities). Take the Blood of old (or some such similarly named trait) from dwarves of Golarion source book and it becomes +3. They get bonus' to con and wis too which means better saves. Against magic, my Level 6 Dwarf fighter has Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +9. He has gear, but only cloak of resistance. Took Iron will and a trait for reflex.Those are Dwarven racial features though, not fighter class features. take away all the dwarf specific things and your down by 5, more than half of the saves are gone. Dwarves are great, but anyone can be a dwarf.
Pathfinder fixed fighters so they're less dependent on certain types of gear. They can get better AC with built in class features now. Therefore they don't need to spend lots on ever increasing Armour +'s to boost AC equal to or better than ther allies.How so? The fighter never actually gets a better AC directly from the class feature. He has a higher max dex bonus and a lower armor check penalty.
If you can't see how being able to use high dex in full plate armour is more effective for AC then I can't help you understand the importance of this ability I'm afraid.
As for saves, true they are Dwarven racial benefits. However they can be used to build around a perceived fighter weakness. If you don't go that option, then there are feats and traits that allow you to bolster those weaknesses. Personally, will save is the one I bolster for fighters, because I've seen what happens when they get mind controlled and slaughter the caster in the party. Many of the reflex saves are for avoiding damage. Fighters tend to be able to take damage without much concern. Plus, if they're built with dex to benefit from the armour training then reflex not such an issue.
Just like the wizard arguments, for every problem people perceive with the fighter, there's an option to work around it in feats etc. fighters have feats in spades.
They could use perception though.
If you can't see how being able to use high dex in full plate armour is more effective for AC then I can't help you understand the importance of this ability I'm afraid.
So what about non-TWFer/Archer Fighters? Because they're not going to have such a high Dex that it ever comes into play.
That's the main problem with every single one of the Fighter's class features and bonus Feats...they only ever work with a select few builds, otherwise they're superfluous.
If you are forced to take X, Y, and Z Feats to keep up with everyone else in the Save department and such, your main class feature (Feats) becomes lessened in value as a result. If you get 10 Feats when everyone else gets 3, but you have to spend 6 of them to match what other classes get for free, then the value of your "class feature" is greatly cheapened.
That's what itches at me about the class.
If you can't see how being able to use high dex in full plate armour is more effective for AC then I can't help you understand the importance of this ability I'm afraid.So what about non-TWFer/Archer Fighters? Because they're not going to have such a high Dex that it ever comes into play.
Really? Start with a Dex of 12. By the time you have significant armour training accrued, you can afford that belt of physical perfection +6 to boost your Dex to 18. Stats do not have to remain static...
That's the main problem with every single one of the Fighter's class features and bonus Feats...they only ever work with a select few builds, otherwise they're superfluous.
I disagree. Who doesn't fight with their favourite weapon most of the time? So Weapon Focus/Specialisation feats are good, as is weapon training. Weapon training also allows you bonuses with other groups, so most will take their primary weapon, then a missile weapon, to give them latitude.
His other class features, well above I've pointed out how armour training can work very well if you wear heavy armour, and if you wear light armour you are likely going for a Dex build so that you can still capitalise on armour training.
If you are forced to take X, Y, and Z Feats to keep up with everyone else in the Save department and such, your main class feature (Feats) becomes lessened in value as a result. If you get 10 Feats when everyone else gets 3, but you have to spend 6 of them to match what other classes get for free, then the value of your "class feature" is greatly cheapened.
That's what itches at me about the class.
That's not that clear what you mean. If your class feature is feats, and it takes six out of ten feats to match the features other classes have, you are still one feat up on them at the end of the day.
Really? Start with a Dex of 12. By the time you have significant armour training accrued, you can afford that belt of physical perfection +6 to boost your Dex to 18. Stats do not have to remain static.
As will the other martials. Its also likely they'll have access to mithral, which is cheap and cheapens the value of armor training too.
I disagree. Who doesn't fight with their favourite weapon most of the time? So Weapon Focus/Specialisation feats are good, as is weapon training. Weapon training also allows you bonuses with other groups, so most will take their primary weapon, then a missile weapon, to give them latitude.
His other class features, well above I've pointed out how armour training can work very well if you wear heavy armour, and if you wear light armour you are likely going for a Dex build so that you can still capitalise on armour training.
DR. Things with DR are why you use another weapon. Sometimes foes have DR bludgeoning and you chose swords, hope your backup was a good earthbreaker. If he has DR Magic I hope your backup was also magical. If it flies I hope your also good with a ranged weapon. You can't be good with every item for every situation. While your sword might be really great, many foes have DR to something, especially at higher levels. They also may fly or have effects that makes using a particular weapon not so choice. The more weapon focus feats you dump into something, the more awful it is when that thing just doesn't work. Meanwhile, the paladin or barbarian can pick up a stick and they only lose the magics on the weapon.
He only has 4 class features I thought. Its very difficult to hit the cap on a mithral light or medium armor unless your dedicated to dexterity, but many builds still require strength and other stats so thats not entirely likely that you'll be working on several things and won't start with a 20 in one of those stats.
That's not that clear what you mean. If your class feature is feats, and it takes six out of ten feats to match the features other classes have, you are still one feat up on them at the end of the day.
The problem is that your spending feats to match other peoples saves and skills, what's left to allow you to have something as nice as rage? Feats also just aren't as powerful as class features. Many class features are options, feats usually aren't options. Many class features scale, feats almost never, if ever, do.
Really? Start with a Dex of 12. By the time you have significant armour training accrued, you can afford that belt of physical perfection +6 to boost your Dex to 18. Stats do not have to remain static.As will the other martials. Its also likely they'll have access to mithral, which is cheap and cheapens the value of armor training too.
Hardly cheap, until you are very high level or it's light or medium armour. I do take your point, though.
DR. Things with DR are why you use another weapon. Sometimes foes have DR bludgeoning and you chose swords, hope your backup was a good earthbreaker.I disagree. Who doesn't fight with their favourite weapon most of the time? So Weapon Focus/Specialisation feats are good, as is weapon training. Weapon training also allows you bonuses with other groups, so most will take their primary weapon, then a missile weapon, to give them latitude.
His other class features, well above I've pointed out how armour training can work very well if you wear heavy armour, and if you wear light armour you are likely going for a Dex build so that you can still capitalise on armour training.
Most slashing/piercing/bludgeoning DRs are low, once you have a solid magical weapon you can usually just overwhelm it with damage. +3 bypasses cold iron or silver, +4 bypasses hardness-based, +5 bypasses alignment based.
I have had fighters ignore their backup weapon in favour of dealing the larger damage, because even subtracting DR they did more damage that way.
If he has DR Magic I hope your backup was also magical. If it flies I hope your also good with a ranged weapon.
Everyone in the party should be carrying a backup ranged weapon, especially if you don;t have a dedicated archer. Sure you aren't as good as a dedicated archer...if everyone is shooting, though, you don't need to be.
You can't be good with every item for every situation. While your sword might be really great, many foes have DR to something, especially at higher levels.
Usually cold iron, silver, hardness, or alignment-based at higher levels.
They also may fly or have effects that makes using a particular weapon not so choice. The more weapon focus feats you dump into something, the more awful it is when that thing just doesn't work.
However with enhancement bonuses getting past most things, that doesn't crop up all that often.
Meanwhile, the paladin or barbarian can pick up a stick and they only lose the magics on the weapon.
The difference is usually not enormously pronounced, I have to point out. On the other hand, if the paladin cannot smite he just took a major nerf. If the barbarian has raged and is fatigued, he's got problems too.
He only has 4 class features I thought. Its very difficult to hit the cap on a mithral light or medium armor unless your dedicated to dexterity, but many builds still require strength and other stats so thats not entirely likely that you'll be working on several things and won't start with a 20 in one of those stats.
To be honest, the major benefits of mithral armour are usually the weight reduction and the lack of movement penalty. If you are wearing mithral light armour it's because you skipped on strength anyway and are probably dex-based. If you are wearing mithral medium armour you are still AC points behind plate armour. Sure you can use more dexterity, if you have it. What would you prefer, high dex bonus and heavy armour or high dex bonus and medium armour?
Also, the agile property can make strength redundant to a dexterity build.
The problem is that your spending feats to match other peoples saves and skills, what's left to allow you to have something as nice as rage? Feats also just aren't as powerful as class features. Many class features are options, feats usually aren't options. Many class features scale, feats almost never, if ever, do.
No, you said class features, not skills and saves, so I took that to include rage. However I DO agree fighters need a boost to saves and to skills. It's their combat ability that doesn't need enhancing, as I see it.
Really? Start with a Dex of 12. By the time you have significant armour training accrued, you can afford that belt of physical perfection +6 to boost your Dex to 18. Stats do not have to remain static...
That is a f@@+load of gold spent on that single item.
At level 15 that's well over half your total WBL.
I disagree. Who doesn't fight with their favourite weapon most of the time? So Weapon Focus/Specialisation feats are good, as is weapon training. Weapon training also allows you bonuses with other groups, so most will take their primary weapon, then a missile weapon, to give them latitude.
Mos people do, but only the Fighter is really FORCED to to be at 100%. Rage is indiscriminate of the weapon, Favored Enemy and Smite likewise. But Weapon Training is entirely dependent on the weapon, and Weapon Focus/Specialization exacerbate the issue, especially when Greater for each is thrown in.
I still think Fighters should just get Martial Versatility/Mastery for free at certain levels, would fix that whole issue. But yeah, it's a minor one.
That's not that clear what you mean. If your class feature is feats, and it takes six out of ten feats to match the features other classes have, you are still one feat up on them at the end of the day.
Cheapened, I said, not made entirely irrelevant. One Feat is still an advantage, yes. But it's an extremely tiny one.
And yet most people are quick to point out that "Feats are the Fighters main class feature!" and "Feats can fix all of his issues!" but if Feats are used to fix all of his issues, he's effectively pumped all of his main class feature into getting on par with other classes (Well, that's not really true especially in the saves/skills department, he still lags behind there even when he invests Feats into them) then he has squandered any advantage those Feats could have given him.
Effectively, the Fighter can use his Feats to make him the undisputed master of combat and Feat chains, but then suffers for his horrid skill selection/points per level and saves, or he can use those Feats to make him sorta kinda maybe as good as another class in that department (well, still, not really) and give up the advantage everyone lauds him for (He can complete overly long Feat chains much faster than another class).