If suddenly the DM starts restricting buyers of Fabricated gear, he's going to need a reason, or justify why you can't sell it vs selling loot gear.
And it's that conflict of interest which breaks the spell.
==Aelryinth
The DM doesn't have to justify anything. Its the DMs world, they rule 0 it. If fabricate is going to be abused and drastically mess with WBL the DM can just say "no". Simple as that.
Player: "I have 20 full plates I want to sell."
DM: "No one has any money for them, they have already bought all the parties other gear. Where is he keeping them?"
Player: "in my portable extra dimensional laboratory!"
DM: "Ok. You might want to reserve an unseen servant every day to keep them spit shined. They are gonna be there a while."
The DM doesn't have to justify anything.
If the GM is changing the rules of the game, then he most certainly needs to explain his reasoning to the players, lest he not have any for long.
If the GM is changing the rules of the game, then he most certainly needs to explain his reasoning to the players, lest he not have any for long.The DM doesn't have to justify anything.
Its not changing the rules of the game, its adjudicating them so they don't derail the campaign.
Sure, there is a balance to things, and a GM who ignores the fun of the players for their own ego-stroking loses those players.
But this is not one of those cases. This is an example of where the crafting rules have a possible exploit. That's why page 9 of the CRB has rule 0, literally spelled out as "the Most Important Rule".
Don't the spell components get used in the process of the spell? So yeah, a wizard could fabricate an adamantite suit of armor, but it still requires the base materials. And maybe there isn't anymore left because Johnny 20th level crafter used the world's supply when he lovingly hand crafted a suit.
So the wizard has to wait for enough ore to be produced, or wish it to existence.
So no, a wizard couldn't fabricate an adamantite suit everyday...because there's not enough raw material to support it. And if they did fabricate a suit from an existing suit, then the original is destroyed in the process.
If the GM is changing the rules of the game, then he most certainly needs to explain his reasoning to the players, lest he not have any for long.The DM doesn't have to justify anything.
Its not changing the rules of the game, its adjudicating them so they don't derail the campaign.
Sure, there is a balance to things, and a GM who ignores the fun of the players for their own ego-stroking loses those players.
But this is not one of those cases. This is an example of where the crafting rules have a possible exploit. That's why page 9 of the CRB has rule 0, literally spelled out as "the Most Important Rule".
Fair enough.
Don't the spell components get used in the process of the spell? So yeah, a wizard could fabricate an adamantite suit of armor, but it still requires the base materials. And maybe there isn't anymore left because Johnny 20th level crafter used the world's supply when he lovingly hand crafted a suit.
So the wizard has to wait for enough ore to be produced, or wish it to existence.
So no, a wizard couldn't fabricate an adamantite suit everyday...because there's not enough raw material to support it. And if they did fabricate a suit from an existing suit, then the original is destroyed in the process.
An adamantine golem weighs 4,000 pounds and uses up more adamantine than can be found on most worlds, so you make a perfectly valid point here.
How many adamantine golems do you run across? I don't think I've ever even had one come up in an adventure...maybe a one shot for fun. Not being snarky...just super curious.
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem's body.
Now the question is...when you "kill" an adamantine golem...is it still a creature? Because then fabricate wouldn't work on it.
And you'd have to take its 4,000 lb body to a master smith to get it melted down and reworkable.
Also...I always forget...is it admantine or adamantite on PF? Isn't one trademarked?
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I'm pretty much giving up on this thread.
@Eldong, @Aelryinth, plenty of people have suggested ways to mitigate the "profit" factor from fabricate uses from straight up house rules, to rewording the spell to be more explicit in the RAW. Why have you turned a blind eye to this?
If people are still going to complain about fabricate while simultaneously justifying the existing trade system, somehow, finding one excuse or another is a leap in RAI than bothering to understand the purpose of the spell.
Look here.
Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.NOTHING here talks about your fabled middle-men. I can sell my equipment to an NPC adventurer, and he'll pay 50%, unless I have a trait, feat or ability that says otherwise, so quit making up excuses to suit your points.
I also don't care what middle-man justification you have to offer, because if you want to stress realism, that's not even close to how real-world markets work. Anyone who puts in effort in the real world, charges a profit margin when he passes the product along. Pathfinder crafters' best result is to make an item for 50% (sometimes more), and then, also sell it for 50%, max - in your own words:
as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring....
Right, because compared to every other item in the market, people would rationally choose a more expensive one than mine? Heck, even the merchants who sell gear for 100% would buy them for me, because they'll just resell it, later, and still make a profit from that 10% margin. In most games, the party is selling their gear at 50% straight to the merchant, whose logical action is to give it a spit-shine and hang it up at twice the price he bought it for. There's never been a middle-man.All this proves that the crafting system is explicitly...
...and you have to belabor the point when my adjudication, for my world, which I present in the name of logic, and defend by logic, isn't good enough, and I should have to use someone else's houserule?
No.
Just no.
It's good you're done with this thread. I understood what I was doing, and why, from the very beginning...and after DMing for over 30 years, I oddly think I'm within my rights.
How many adamantine golems do you run across? I don't think I've ever even had one come up in an adventure...maybe a one shot for fun. Not being snarky...just super curious.
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem's body.Now the question is...when you "kill" an adamantine golem...is it still a creature? Because then fabricate wouldn't work on it.
And you'd have to take its 4,000 lb body to a master smith to get it melted down and reworkable.
Also...I always forget...is it admantine or adamantite on PF? Isn't one trademarked?
4,000 lbs. is the golem's total weight, not all of which is adamantine. It's up to the GM to determine how much (usable adamantine) there actually is in a defeated golem's remains.
A creature's remains is treated as an object. This has been true since early 3.0.
It's "adamantine."
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How many adamantine golems do you run across? I don't think I've ever even had one come up in an adventure...maybe a one shot for fun. Not being snarky...just super curious.
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem's body.Now the question is...when you "kill" an adamantine golem...is it still a creature? Because then fabricate wouldn't work on it.
And you'd have to take its 4,000 lb body to a master smith to get it melted down and reworkable.
Also...I always forget...is it admantine or adamantite on PF? Isn't one trademarked?
4,000 lbs. is the golem's total weight, not all of which is adamantine. It's up to the GM to determine how much (usable adamantine) there actually is in a defeated golem's remains.
A creature's remains is treated as an object. This has been true since early 3.0.
It's "adamantine."
Hmm? I thought I just read that 4000 pounds of adamantine was what was required.
Still...it's not as though they'll be flooding the market with rare materials since the original gets consumed. And in the case of adamantine stuff, they'd likely be able to do a few, then have to Planar Travel via gate or planar shift (which gate is 9th level spell and planar shift is 7th level wizard...and not guaranteed to put you in a favorable spot), then they'd have to survive the indigenous population, locate said rare materials, then try to planar travel the materials back.
I don't know that wizard would really be wasting their resources just to fabricate a few more suits of adamantine armor.
They'd most likely be hunting down horrors or looking for a rare new spell to add, or looking for some super cool wondrous item.
Hmm? I thought I just read that 4000 pounds of adamantine was what was required.
A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals worth a total of 100,000 gp
Its (more than) 4000 pounds total. How much of that is adamantine, and how much of that is mithral, gold, plantinum and other metals is up the the DM.
Still...it's not as though they'll be flooding the market with rare materials since the original gets consumed. And in the case of adamantine stuff, they'd likely be able to do a few, then have to Planar Travel via gate or planar shift (which gate is 9th level spell and planar shift is 7th level wizard...and not guaranteed to put you in a favorable spot), then they'd have to survive the indigenous population, locate said rare materials, then try to planar travel the materials back.
I don't know that wizard would really be wasting their resources just to fabricate a few more suits of adamantine armor.
They'd most likely be hunting down horrors or looking for a rare new spell to add, or looking for some super cool wondrous item.
If you really want to let them do it. Yeah, that'd be my adaptation. You've taken all the adamantine locally available. Start traveling for it. If the rest of their party doesn't want to accompany them... well, they better be a very good wizard to not die while solo.
How many adamantine golems do you run across? I don't think I've ever even had one come up in an adventure...maybe a one shot for fun. Not being snarky...just super curious.
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem's body.Now the question is...when you "kill" an adamantine golem...is it still a creature? Because then fabricate wouldn't work on it.
And you'd have to take its 4,000 lb body to a master smith to get it melted down and reworkable.
Also...I always forget...is it admantine or adamantite on PF? Isn't one trademarked?
4,000 lbs. is the golem's total weight, not all of which is adamantine. It's up to the GM to determine how much (usable adamantine) there actually is in a defeated golem's remains.
A creature's remains is treated as an object. This has been true since early 3.0.
It's "adamantine."
(I bolded part of your post)
Nope : golems are magic items. They are created like magic items.
As Magic items can't be affected by fabrication, you can't craft an adamantine armor from an adamantine golem.
Problem solved.
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Hmm? I thought I just read that 4000 pounds of adamantine was what was required.A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals worth a total of 100,000 gpIts (more than) 4000 pounds total. How much of that is adamantine, and how much of that is mithral, gold, plantinum and other metals is up the the DM.
Ah. Right, shoulda looked again. Cool.
Nope : golems are magic items. They are created like magic items.
As Magic items can't be affected by fabrication, you can't craft an adamantine armor from an adamantine golem.Problem solved.
If they work like magic items:
Then when you destroy them, the magic power is lost, so they are then no longer a magic item, and are just the base components again.
@Tarantula : ...
I think though that the point still stands. There's only so much raw item available. Otherwise they have to go somewhere else to get it...and expose themselves to all the risks that encompass such an enterprise.
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I think though that the point still stands. There's only so much raw item available. Otherwise they have to go somewhere else to get it...and expose themselves to all the risks that encompass such an enterprise.
...all the more reason I don't want it Fabricate-able.
I actually *like* flavor in my game. I don't allow adamantite armor to be randomly available, when it comes down to it...it's phenomenally rare...only the dwarves have the secret to work it (on the prime) and they tend to control the mines. It's not just bloody expensive...it's an incredible honor to have a suit of dwarven plate.
In your case EldonG...they'd have to travel to the dwarven mines to even get raw materials...or steal a suit that the dwarves made to fabricate that suit...in which case they are destroying the original to make a new copy. Net balance is the same number suits in existence.
And an army of magic resistant dwarves chasing you because you broke into their mines and stole their incredibly rare and guarded materials is not something many (or any) wizards want to risk.
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In your case EldonG...they'd have to travel to the dwarven mines to even get raw materials...or steal a suit that the dwarves made to fabricate that suit...in which case they are destroying the original to make a new copy. Net balance is the same number suits in existence.
And an army of magic resistant dwarves chasing you because you broke into their mines and stole their incredibly rare and guarded materials is not something many (or any) wizards want to risk.
If it was fabricateable, it wouldn't make any sense that the dwarves didn't simply fabricate it themselves. They do have wizards...
If it was fabricateable, it wouldn't make any sense that the dwarves didn't simply fabricate it themselves. They do have wizards...
You can't use fabricate to refit the armor to the new king.
I wonder why they didn't include "only dwarves have access to adamantine" in the rules
I wonder why they didn't include "only dwarves have access to adamantine" in the rules
Doesn't really make sense to me.... If it fell from the sky, why would the dwarves (who love underground) be the ones finding it?
If it was fabricateable, it wouldn't make any sense that the dwarves didn't simply fabricate it themselves. They do have wizards...In your case EldonG...they'd have to travel to the dwarven mines to even get raw materials...or steal a suit that the dwarves made to fabricate that suit...in which case they are destroying the original to make a new copy. Net balance is the same number suits in existence.
And an army of magic resistant dwarves chasing you because you broke into their mines and stole their incredibly rare and guarded materials is not something many (or any) wizards want to risk.
Because the original base materials still get consumed as part of the spell components.
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Because the original base materials still get consumed as part of the spell components.If it was fabricateable, it wouldn't make any sense that the dwarves didn't simply fabricate it themselves. They do have wizards...In your case EldonG...they'd have to travel to the dwarven mines to even get raw materials...or steal a suit that the dwarves made to fabricate that suit...in which case they are destroying the original to make a new copy. Net balance is the same number suits in existence.
And an army of magic resistant dwarves chasing you because you broke into their mines and stole their incredibly rare and guarded materials is not something many (or any) wizards want to risk.
Consumed?
Fabricate transforms them into a finished product.
Doesn't really make sense to me.... If it fell from the sky, why would the dwarves (who love underground) be the ones finding it?
I'm sure sometime in the past a Dwarven crafter has been dominated and forced to tech his adamantine crafting secrets to a human also
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Doesn't really make sense to me.... If it fell from the sky, why would the dwarves (who love underground) be the ones finding it?
I'm sure sometime in the past a Dwarven crafter has been dominated and forced to tech his adamantine crafting secrets to a human also
...who promptly died of natural causes...you know...the fall of a hammer against his skull. :p
It's a classic fantasy trope that dwarves hold the secret to adamantite. It was a pretty official line in FR. I like it, so I use it...why else would dwarves be such famous crafters? The reputation they hold is second only to the cyclops.
It seems more a LOtR thing that dwarves are famous crafters. Personally, I see them as good with stone (stonecunning racial ability). But gnomes make better crafters (obsessive racial ability).
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It's a classic fantasy trope that dwarves hold the secret to adamantite. It was a pretty official line in FR. I like it, so I use it...why else would dwarves be such famous crafters? The reputation they hold is second only to the cyclops.It seems more a LOtR thing that dwarves are famous crafters. Personally, I see them as good with stone (stonecunning racial ability). But gnomes make better crafters (obsessive racial ability).
Read more fantasy. It's there.
Read more fantasy. It's there.It's a classic fantasy trope that dwarves hold the secret to adamantite. It was a pretty official line in FR. I like it, so I use it...why else would dwarves be such famous crafters? The reputation they hold is second only to the cyclops.It seems more a LOtR thing that dwarves are famous crafters. Personally, I see them as good with stone (stonecunning racial ability). But gnomes make better crafters (obsessive racial ability).
Thats my point. In Pathfinder lore, it isn't. If you want to make your gameworld where dwarves are renounced for their craftsmanship to match the specific fantasy land you have in mind, that is fine, but the rules don't support them being any better at crafting than elves or humans.
Consumed?
Fabricate transforms them into a finished product.
That's what I mean, it doesn't leave the base materials still in existence. It uses the spell component, and creates the suit. But it doesn't mean that there is still more base material lying around.
...and you have to belabor the point when my adjudication, for my world, which I present in the name of logic, and defend by logic, isn't good enough, and I should have to use someone else's houserule?I may have lost track of some posts in this thread, but I believe the issue here is that some folks, despite being called on it multiple times, have continued to claim that Fabricate can make masterwork items by RAW, trying to imply that it is something more than their own house rule.
My take on it is that it is fine as a house rule if you want to restrict the spell that way. I take issue with the continual insistence that it is something more than that, and that the rest of us are breaking the rules if we don't use the same house rule.
If it was fabricateable, it wouldn't make any sense that the dwarves didn't simply fabricate it themselves. They do have wizards...Perhaps they also have pride in their time-honored tradition of painstaking handmade craftsmanship.
Fixed that for you.
==Aelryinth
I just realized it can be argued that Fabricate is a completely broken spell that cannot do anything at all, by a strict reading of the rules. Now, I'm not saying this is how we should use it, just thought it interesting for the sake of arguing.
Material (M)
A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."
and
"Fabricate
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5
CASTINGCasting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)*snip*
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell.
*snip*
So, you cast the spell, using the material component (the material), which are annihilated in the casting process. Then the spell converts the materials into an object - but since the materials no longer exist the spell fails.
For completeness sake, I'll add that it can also be interpreted such that the material component is an equal amount of raw materials as the materials that are to be transmuted; so if you want to transmute 1 lbs of mithril you need 1 lbs to transmute and 1 lbs as a material component that is annihilated in the casting process.
Heh. That was weird.
LOL. Best spell interpretation so far.
==Aelryinth
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Thats my point. In Pathfinder lore, it isn't. If you want to make your gameworld where dwarves are renounced for their craftsmanship to match the specific fantasy land you have in mind, that is fine, but the rules don't support them being any better at crafting than elves or humans.Read more fantasy. It's there.It's a classic fantasy trope that dwarves hold the secret to adamantite. It was a pretty official line in FR. I like it, so I use it...why else would dwarves be such famous crafters? The reputation they hold is second only to the cyclops.It seems more a LOtR thing that dwarves are famous crafters. Personally, I see them as good with stone (stonecunning racial ability). But gnomes make better crafters (obsessive racial ability).
Dwarves are lovers of history and tradition, and their long lifespan leads to far less in the way of generational shifts in attitudes, styles, fashions, and trends than shorter-lived races exhibit. If a thing is not broken, they do not fix it or change it; and if it is broken, they fix it rather than replace it. Thrifty as a rule, dwarves are loath to discard anything unless it is truly ruined and unable to be fixed. At the same time, dwarves' meticulous, near-obsessive attention to detail and durability in their craftsmanship makes that a rare occurrence, as the things they make are built to last. As a result, buildings, artwork, tools, housewares, garments, weapons, and virtually everything else made by dwarves still sees regular use at an age when such items would be relegated to museum pieces, dusty antique shelves, or junkyard fodder by other races. Taken together, these traits create the impression that dwarves are a race frozen in time.
Craftsman: Dwarves are known for their superior craftsmanship when it comes to metallurgy and stonework. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks related to metal or stone. This racial trait replaces greed.
Oh?
Oh?
I just looked at the core book. You'd think if that was such a big part of their culture, it would be the default bonus, not something you have to swap out to get.
So.. another question.
could you take cow bones and fabircate them into human bones (or something else) and then animate said bones via animate dead?
I have no idea why you would want to do this other than it's a long Tuesday evening and Golarion still hasn't invented sports leagues.
So.. another question.
could you take cow bones and fabircate them into human bones (or something else) and then animate said bones via animate dead?
I have no idea why you would want to do this other than it's a long Tuesday evening and Golarion still hasn't invented sports leagues.
No. It outputs the same things you can make with a craft check. There is no craft(cow to human bones) skill.
but not this one...............
I just realized it can be argued that Fabricate is a completely broken spell that cannot do anything at all, by a strict reading of the rules. Now, I'm not saying this is how we should use it, just thought it interesting for the sake of arguing.
Material (M)
A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."
and
"Fabricate
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5
CASTINGCasting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)*snip*
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell.
*snip*
So, you cast the spell, using the material component (the material), which are annihilated in the casting process. Then the spell converts the materials into an object - but since the materials no longer exist the spell fails.
For completeness sake, I'll add that it can also be interpreted such that the material component is an equal amount of raw materials as the materials that are to be transmuted; so if you want to transmute 1 lbs of mithril you need 1 lbs to transmute and 1 lbs as a material component that is annihilated in the casting process.
That's really really good Ilja. It has several benefits too : it prevents most abuse like Blood money, while preventing selling at 50% for profit too.
I'll keep it, for if I have problems one day with that spell (not that I have problems or expect problems with it soon, but still a great discovery).
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qp3
Fabricate: Can I use this to make a masterwork item or an item with a special material?
Yes and yes. In effect, the spell is only saving you time compared to crafting the item nonmagically; you still must provide the raw materials (which costs you 1/3 of the item's price).
The spell doesn't require a Craft check if you're making an item that doesn't require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as a desk, door, club, outfit, or simple kind of armor.
Creating a desk with a secret compartment, a door that matches a wall when it is closed (i.e., a secret door), or a masterwork item count as items with a "high degree of craftsmanship," so you must succed at a appropriate Craft check against the DC to craft these sorts of items with the spell. In general, any item that has a Craft DC of 15 or higher requires you to succeed at a Craft check to fabricate the item.
If you want to create (for example) a mithral chain shirt, you need to provide the mithral and other materials needed for the chain shirt (costing 1/3 of the item's price). Because mithral items are always masterwork, you would have to succeed at a Craft check to successfully create the item.
As with the normal crafting rules, if you fail this check by 4 or less, you fail to create the item but do not ruin your materials (and could cast the spell again using those materials). If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
Thank you PDT!
Thanks too. :)
Thanks Design Team!!!