Goblin Squad Member
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From a bandits points of view whats is a fair S.A.D offer, Are you looking at cash,cargo or some other object of value?. were do you expect to pull the mystic number from? or do you let the merchant come up with the offer?
I can see how the merchants can come up with a figure that they are willing to pay-they know what they expect to make from the sale of there cargo.
The chaotic neutral in me says that there are a thousand variables involved and the "fair SAD" will be known, when it happens.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The fair value falls somewhere between the expected return of each of the two parties if the negotiation fails; at those offer points, both parties should either prefer the SAD offer or prefer to duke it out.
Any point where one party wants the SAD but the other would rather fight is clearly not a fair offer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fair value falls somewhere between the expected return of each of the two parties if the negotiation fails; at those offer points, both parties should either prefer the SAD offer or prefer to duke it out.
Any point where one party wants the SAD but the other would rather fight is clearly not a fair offer.
Incorrect. This only means that one party does not agree with the offer. It says nothing about the "fairness" of that offer.
The only fair offer is one that is given and accepted. In these cases, both sides came to the same conclusion, it was fair, otherwise no agreement would have been met.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Outlaws use a new mechanic we are working on developing called stand and deliver, which allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window.
You think this is to be taken literally, that the only thing you can ask for is money? In that case, a traveller must always carry money while transporting goods or risk not being able to accept any SADs, unless the SAD can be paid for with money from the traveller's bank (which would be unrealistic). If not, how could it work in practice when the bandit asks for payment in resources? He would have to know what the traveller is carrying or he could end up asking for something the traveller can't pay. And the mechanics would be iffy, interface wise. Would the bandit select the kind of item he demands from a scroll-down list?
An alternative could be that a trade window opens during SAD, bandit and victim can negotiate the terms in chat and if the merchant offers enough stuff in the trade window that the bandit chooses to accept, the SAD goes through. This would be my ideal mechanic.I also had a thought about the risk aspect after one of Bluddwolf's posts. If the bandit(s) think it will be a tough fight that they might lose, I expect that they will have little to lose compared to the "victim" team, since the bandits probably won't be loaded with inventory items. If I were to be a bandit, I would likely use awesome gear only to the extent I could thread them and use lesser quality gear in the other slots. Thus, very low risk for the bandit team (since death will only be a minor setback).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also had a thought about the risk aspect after one of Bluddwolf's posts. If the bandit(s) think it will be a tough fight that they might lose, I expect that they will have little to lose compared to the "victim" team, since the bandits probably won't be loaded with inventory items. If I were to be a bandit, I would likely use awesome gear only to the extent I could thread them and use lesser quality gear in the other slots. Thus, very low risk for the bandit team (since death will only be a minor setback).
My philosophy of banditry is a direct carry over from all other MMOs that I have played as a pirate (particularly EVE).
1. You are never safe
2. Only carry what you are willing to lose
3. It is all about the coin
"Take what you can, give them nothing."
So, you are quite correct in your read of my bandit company's basic rules of banditry.
We don't have the pride that can be hurt by death, only the greed not to lose coin in the process.
We will rarely engage in a fair fight, we seek soft targets with moderate or better rewards. We plan on using SADs when we can, and Ganking when a SAD fails.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Outlaws use a new mechanic we are working on developing called stand and deliver, which allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window.You think this is to be taken literally, that the only thing you can ask for is money? In that case, a traveller must always carry money while transporting goods or risk not being able to accept any SADs, unless the SAD can be paid for with money from the traveller's bank (which would be unrealistic)...
You are assuming banks are universal across the realms. If I bank only at my home settlement and am transporting goods to a different settlement then I will need to carry coin if I wish to do business.
In fact my own opinion is it will turn out 'banks' are stockpiles of goods, warehouses, and each player will carry all their coin all the time unless it is invested in goods or speculative ventures.
Further, I think the SAD will turn out to default to a percentage of the merchant's available coin rather than be something the bandit gets to specify. It is his risk, after all, and the SAD mechanic would be meaningless if the merchant isn't carrying enough coin to meet his price for passage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are assuming banks are universal across the realms. If I bank only at my home settlement and am transporting goods to a different settlement then I will need to carry coin if I wish to do business.
In fact my own opinion is it will turn out 'banks' are stockpiles of goods, warehouses, and each player will carry all their coin all the time unless it is invested in goods or speculative ventures.
Further, I think the SAD will turn out to default to a percentage of the merchant's available coin rather than be something the bandit gets to specify. It is his risk, after all, and the SAD mechanic would be meaningless if the merchant isn't carrying enough coin to meet his price for passage.
If you are transporting goods in order to sell them you could bring no or just a little gold (enough to list them as for sale on the market). If the SAD is for a percentage of carried gold, the bandit might end up ransoming a person carrying huge amounts of resources for a ridiculously low amount of gold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are transporting goods in order to sell them you could bring no or just a little gold (enough to list them as for sale on the market). If the SAD is for a percentage of carried gold, the bandit might end up ransoming a person carrying huge amounts of resources for a ridiculously low amount of gold.You are assuming banks are universal across the realms. If I bank only at my home settlement and am transporting goods to a different settlement then I will need to carry coin if I wish to do business.
In fact my own opinion is it will turn out 'banks' are stockpiles of goods, warehouses, and each player will carry all their coin all the time unless it is invested in goods or speculative ventures.
Further, I think the SAD will turn out to default to a percentage of the merchant's available coin rather than be something the bandit gets to specify. It is his risk, after all, and the SAD mechanic would be meaningless if the merchant isn't carrying enough coin to meet his price for passage.
That would be part of the risk the bandit is wagering, and to my mind it would be fair. Further the bandit's SAD should be a percent of carried coin rather than a sum he dreams up. He has to figure this mark is weak and a 50% demand should be acceptable to him, or this merchant I have met before and that time it didn't work out so well, so I will try and make him an offer he will take, say 10%.
If the banks hold coin, so the PC doesn't have to carry more than he thinks he will need, then the bandit should have the option to also take a portion of the transported goods along with the attendant burden of having to transport it. That might be a synthesis of the different positions that would make sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not really certain, it has been said before but not with verification, that gold will have no weight and is not a tangible. If this is true, than a bandit could not have any reasonable idea if what to ask for in a SAD offer. At least if a SAD was based on cargo / inventory carried, we would have the opportunity to make an educated appraisal of the value.
I'm in favor and hope that we bandits will get a mix of coins and or resources as part of a SAD or the looting of a defeated merchant. I want us to have to think about what our carrying capacity is and our transportation needs. I want us to have to rely on our local market knowledge to determine as accurately can, the value of what we ask for or end up taking.
I'm hoping that there are a number of skills, from many trees, that the most effective bandits will have to train and use correctly, to master our trade.
If it take 2.5 years for a character archetype to master, I'm hoping that a bandit will have the same indepth skill sets to likewise train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not really certain, it has been said before but not with verification, that gold will have no weight and is not a tangible. If this is true, than a bandit could not have any reasonable idea if what to ask for in a SAD offer. At least if a SAD was based on cargo / inventory carried, we would have the opportunity to make an educated appraisal of the value.
I'm in favor and hope that we bandits will get a mix of coins and or resources as part of a SAD or the looting of a defeated merchant. I want us to have to think about what our carrying capacity is and our transportation needs. I want us to have to rely on our local market knowledge to determine as accurately can, the value of what we ask for or end up taking.
I'm hoping that there are a number of skills, from many trees, that the most effective bandits will have to train and use correctly, to master our trade.
If it take 2.5 years for a character archetype to master, I'm hoping that a bandit will have the same indepth skill sets to likewise train.
I doubt you'll be able to loot gold from a kill. They've said that they don't intend for coin to be lootable, as players will have constant access to all of their gold at all times. I expect most players will get around that by storing gold on an alt, or in a settlement account if there is some reason why carring it is disadvantageous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coin is a unit of account. Coin can be infinitely divided and combined. It is virtual and does not appear as an in–game object. When your character walks around, you're not lugging around a huge bag full of money. Coin has no weight and can be moved from place to place instantly. We may decide at some point to generate some in–game rationale for all of this using mystic hand–waving and such to "explain" the curious properties of coin, but for the sake of this dev blog we'll keep it relatively simple.
and
Advancing a hideout can make it harder to locate, increase its local storage, increase its threat radius, and allow the hideout's occupants to determine the nature of passing characters and their gear before triggering an ambush.
That is what I could find. I am pretty sure that the SAD will involve coin and/or goods. For simplicity, it may involve automatic percentages or even optional ones. Otherwise there may be a lengthy negotiation process that, I am guessing, bandits would not be fond of.
It's a "stickup" not a bargain.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The fair value falls somewhere between the expected return of each of the two parties if the negotiation fails; at those offer points, both parties should either prefer the SAD offer or prefer to duke it out.
Any point where one party wants the SAD but the other would rather fight is clearly not a fair offer.
Incorrect. This only means that one party does not agree with the offer. It says nothing about the "fairness" of that offer.
The only fair offer is one that is given and accepted. In these cases, both sides came to the same conclusion, it was fair, otherwise no agreement would have been met.
"Fair" is not objective, but subjective to the participants. If they mutually agree, I conclude that they prefer the deal to the alternative.
The other type of fair deal is one that both parties find unacceptable; they instead mutually choose to fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt you'll be able to loot gold from a kill. They've said that they don't intend for coin to be lootable, as players will have constant access to all of their gold at all times. I expect most players will get around that by storing gold on an alt, or in a settlement account if there is some reason why carring it is disadvantageous.
That puts things in a new light. If that is how it will work then the SAD should definitely be for a fixed sum of gold that the bandit decides. That way both the bandit and the victim can have a reason to want the SAD to go through and the mechanics of it all can be quite simple.
Is that really how it's going to be though, gold universally accessible and no looting of gold from fallen player enemies? I can see why they'd make it like that to prevent griefing and players losing everything they have suddenly. The little care bear inside me would like that very much but I'm sure hardcore oldschool PvPers would be upset.
Is there a blog about money where this is explained?
EDIT: I see that Bringslite already quoted the source, thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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When players exchange coin between themselves, it is neither created nor destroyed. When your character dies, the coin you were carrying is not lost, and it doesn't stay with your husk. It is possible for coin to leave circulation without being destroyed—for example, coin associated with inactive characters is effectively out of circulation. But should those characters return to the game, their coin will be there waiting.
Looks like coin can be exchanged, in some ways, but not "looted".
What if a merchant has invested most of there gold into the cargo? and the bandit asks for half, half of 5gp might not be believed, how do you know how rich the merchant is?. On the other hand if you can see the merchants total wealth, You rich bastard give me 20,000gp. I think asking for cargo is the better option, but them what if the merchant is on the way to pick up cargo?.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if a merchant has invested most of there gold into the cargo? and the bandit asks for half, half of 5gp might not be believed, how do you know how rich the merchant is?. On the other hand if you can see the merchants total wealth, You rich bastard give me 20,000gp. I think asking for cargo is the better option, but them what if the merchant is on the way to pick up cargo?.
If the merchant in this case is on the way to pick up cargo and not carrying any goods, it makes perfect sense to me that he/she will reject the SAD, get killed, resurrect and attempt the voyage again.
The bandits should have to rely on catching people actually carrying goods, with something to lose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if a merchant has invested most of there gold into the cargo? and the bandit asks for half, half of 5gp might not be believed, how do you know how rich the merchant is?. On the other hand if you can see the merchants total wealth, You rich bastard give me 20,000gp. I think asking for cargo is the better option, but them what if the merchant is on the way to pick up cargo?.
Any merchant that invests all or any amount of his gold that is more than he can afford to lose, then takes it out on the highway, deserves what he gets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me the only thing that makes sense is that the bandit will base the value of his / her SAD on what can be seen in the caravan, wagon, pouch, backpack, etc..
The bandit will then make an offer, based on his or her knowledge of the value of those goods. He will either be too high or too low, perhaps just right. The merchant will then decide, is the offer worth it for me?
No mystical magic required. No divine knowledge needed. No money without weight or substance.
Just...
Observation
Intimidation
Evaluation
Negotiation
and...
Resolution (Fight or Flight)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as it takes the bandit time to search through the caravan, wagon, pouch, backpack, ect... then I have little problem with that. I would just disagree with the bandit popping out, hitting the SAD button, and getting instant knowledge of the merchant's load.
Not sure what the time will do for you, it is not even known if a SAD will initiate an attacker flag. In my opinion it is not an attack until the swords come out, it is only a perceived threat. If the SAD is accepted, it is a negotiated trade, and not an attack at all. Only if the negotiations are not met, and we decide to attack, should we gain the attacker flag.
But we would be PvP flagged anyway, under the Outlaw flag, so the attacker flag would be redundant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like so many things in PFO it will be an economic equation and the most successfull bandits will likely need to bring a variety of skills to the table.
For example, a bandit group which is solely focused on combat ability may have the ability to take on more difficult prey but it will likely spend alot of it's time taking on less rewarding prey, getting less return for the valueables it reaps and running hire risks.
You have to remember that the bandits TIME is a finite resource as well. If the bandit group is spending all it's time taking down merchants that are hauling 5gp worth of goods when it could have spent the same time taking down merchants that are worth 30gp then it is not operating very efficiently.
I think the most effective bandits will spend alot of focus up front in intelligence gathering to determine merchants that are carying valuable goods. The kind of protection those merchants have and what sort of anti-bandit activity they are likely to encounter.
Taking on a merchant caravan that they have poor chances of defeating or in an area where they have good chances of encountering law enforcment patrols that can defeat them is a bad bargain for bandits as well...even if the bandits aren't carrying much valuable that they can lose...they will lose thier own TIME which is a resource that could have been expended more sucessfully.
Likewise bandits will probably need some skill at hiding thier presence from merchants (so as not to risk loosing thier prey) and from law enforcement hunting them. They also want to have reasonable skills in cashing in on (fencing) the goods that they do take...or they are wasting alot of money there.
They will, of course, need sufficient combat power to do thier work...but too much focus on that and not enough on the other aspects will be counterproductive. Note when I speak about skill/focus here I am talking about BOTH mechanical skill (i.e. I have level 5 in "swords") and PLAYER skill.
The same will hold true for merchants, guards and bandit hunters. Everything is a balance of judging the right balance of skills and resource expenditures.....and yes, I'm sure for some merchants some of the time it will be a better economic decision just to pay the bandits or accept a few lost cargo's.
Aside what I have mentioned here...I fully expect MOST bandits (present company excepted) will end up being mindless thugs who go out with little discipline or pre-planning who go out as a small handfull, trying to focus solely on thier combat abilities and looking to "strike it rich" by preying on others. They won't be very effective but they likely will be pretty common...bandits who operate like Bluddwulfs group are going to be the exception to the rule (IMO), it simply involves too much (real world) forethought and discipline for the typical "I hurtz you" guy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect you are right about the lesser bandits. I hope that they will realize that they should act more like Bludd's group, a message they might possibly get over cupcakes? I'd hate the UNC to have to spend time talking face-to-face when Tony's delivers...unless the lesser bandits don't get the message the first time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure what the time will do for you, it is not even known if a SAD will initiate an attacker flag. In my opinion it is not an attack until the swords come out, it is only a perceived threat. If the SAD is accepted, it is a negotiated trade, and not an attack at all. Only if the negotiations are not met, and we decide to attack, should we gain the attacker flag.
But we would be PvP flagged anyway, under the Outlaw flag, so the attacker flag would be redundant.
Leaving out the non sequitur about the attacker flag, what time will do is allow the merchant to attempt to call for help. It will allow the guard ambush following the merchant to move into position before the bandits realize the merchant is carrying boxes of fieldstones. It will give the merchant time to assess the bandits and gauge his odds in a fight. It will impact the number of merchants a bandit group can hit in a given time window. It will make the bandits question whether they want to hit this merchant and let one or two get past, or wait for one they think will have a higher payoff.
I'm not saying the bandits should have to wait all that time to issue the SAD. They should be able to pop out and demand their SAD right away, but it becomes a tradeoff. Do I spend more time and get a better idea what he's carrying, or do I go off assumptions and issue quickly to move out faster?
How is a bandit expected to see what a merchant is transporting when he is in fast travel?. I have a feeling that the bandits hideout will be key to how bandits operate. Its the hideout that let bandits know when a merchant passes by, it allows the bandits to drop merchants out of fast travel for ambush/S.A.D, offers concealment for bandits, stores loot. So my guess is that the hideout will give the bandits knowledge of merchants cargo and thus give the bandits a point to work from with there S.A.D offer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is a bandit expected to see what a merchant is transporting when he is in fast travel?. I have a feeling that the bandits hideout will be key to how bandits operate. Its the hideout that let bandits know when a merchant passes by, it allows the bandits to drop merchants out of fast travel for ambush/S.A.D, offers concealment for bandits, stores loot. So my guess is that the hideout will give the bandits knowledge of merchants cargo and thus give the bandits a point to work from with there S.A.D offer.
You are discounting the rather obvious possibilty that the bandit knows because they have someone involved with the merchants operation (apprentice, guard, customer, etc) feeding them information. As I understand it, this is a rather common way for both modern day and historical pirates to operate.
The old, grab whatever ship you happen to run accross, doesn't tend to work out very well because you are as likely to end up with a cargo hold full of toilet paper as you are one full of gold...and you may just end up running into a ship that outguns you.
I'm not really very keen on bandits gaining knowledge of the merchants cargo in the manner you describe because it eliminates an important aspect of PLAYER SKILL and decision making (intelligence gathering) within the game. There are things that character skills should do for you like remaining hidden or seeing through disguises or spotting someone stealthing along behind....but you need to leave SOME things upto player skill....and the kind of omnicience to see through boxes and tarps (absent magic - which could also have magical countermeasures against) really shouldn't be around. We have to leave something upto the player aside from just how to build thier character. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is a bandit expected to see what a merchant is transporting when he is in fast travel?
In general, fast travel in Pathfinder Online will not be instantaneous. Instead, characters that are using fast travel are assumed to be moving at a rate of up to five times normal speed (that is, 20 times real time).
Hideouts have a "threat radius" that determines how they interact with their surroundings: when a character using fast travel enters the threat radius of a hideout, the characters in the hideout can trigger an ambush—the targets drop out of fast travel in the vicinity of the hideout, and the bandits may be able to overtake them and engage them in melee combat before they can exit the area and re-enter fast travel.
Advancing a hideout can make it harder to locate, increase its local storage, increase its threat radius, and allow the hideout's occupants to determine the nature of passing characters and their gear before triggering an ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure it's fair to draw an equivalency between the "nature of passing characters and their gear" and "the cargo being transported". In general, you can look at someone and go "He's driving a wagon, accompanied by five guys in fine quality plate armor, with a longbow and a two handed sword equipped." Which is substantially different from looking at someone and going "He has a pouch of rubies, five hundred gold, and a bundle of magic wands in his backpack."
