and I hear that Steven Brust's The Phoenix Guards is good. I must check it out.
I have heard similar. Apparently Brust wrote it as a love letter to Dumas.
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I agree with Jim.
Not only for Paizo, but for 3pps, the Core and Base (and Alternate) Classes are a benchmark. Nowadays, many 3pp products assume ownership of Core - but, increasingly, also the APG. Having an official Paizo Swashbuckler means that you use the same rules for an AP, for PFS, and for homebrew and 3pp settings. It's convenient for both the GM and the players.
Sometimes a 3pp publisher makes a niche for themselves that gives them maybe halfway parity to Paizo's influence on the smaller publishers (Psionics Unleashed, for instance, or Tome of Horrors for monsters), but even there, we can't assume anywhere near the acceptance that an official Paizo class would have.
The 3pp Swashbuckler being referred to is workmanlike and functional. It isn't amazing, or really innovative (in large part because it came out so early in PF's history) and it doesn't have archetypes to cover all the ideas I've listed above...
Speaking of which, here's a few more:
Masked swordsman (Zorro)
Archer variant (filmic Robin Hood)
Cloak and dagger (spy, stealthy)
This thread is relevant to our interest.
We will be following this thread with intent eye....
In shameless promotion, our swashbuckler take. It maybe of interest for some of you.
Speaking of which, here's a few more:
Masked swordsman (Zorro)
Archer variant (filmic Robin Hood)
Cloak and dagger (spy, stealthy)
I never thought of it that way, but I would agree that Robin Hood is more swashbuckley than roguish. Well, roguish in D&D terms. He's like the quintessential roguish character.
I would love to see a swashbuckler class.
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I'm going to toss in. I like the swashbuckler as a class and it would likely be the one style of class that gets me out of playing casters. I watched a lot of Zorro growing up as my mom loved it. I am also familiar with Errol Flynn.
So far the closest I have come to playing a swashbuckler is not in D&D. I played a swordmaster in Earthdawn. That was fun to play and I could get up to a lot of things in and out of combat.
That all said I think it should definitely be more focused on mobility and the ability to avoid attacks or parry blows.
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Okay, since I have insomnia, let's go through these:
Sword/Rapier + Dagger (2H)
This and freehand are the baseline.
Sword/Rapier + Cloak
This is cool. Not sure it's an archetype so much as a "move".
Cutlass wielding pirate
I don't think we need an archetype for every possible finesse weapon. But I suppose the class would need a pirate archetype.
Schooled Duelist/Aristocrat (perhaps like the Spanish style)
This works. Not sure how it'd be mechanically different but the rigid form is an adequate hook. And, IIRC, Spanish Style was two-weapon so there might be an overlap there.
Gutter Fighter/Assassin type
This is more a background than an archetype, a character possibly influenced by feats. But I've seen flimsier archetypes.
Showman Swashbuckler (the English School of Fence)
Sure.
Trick fighter - sword throwing, chandeliers, bannisters, that sort of thing...
Again, this feels more like a maneuver, the swashbuckler equivalent of a rogue trick.
Witty or Cruel talker, who damages her foes' concentration and sangfroid...
Another "swashbuckler trick".
Scimitar/dervish type (I realize this has been done for the Bard, but this is the closer class)
Another weapon-centric archetype.
Musketeer type (works with teamwork) and/or carries a gun
Fair enough. Every class needs the gun using variant. Add a gun-rapier and you're set.
Fearless bravo who fights many at once (circle of steel)
If a standard swashbuckler has a "duel" option (ala the cavelier's challenge) this might be a solid variant.
Blind swordsman
... It is a pretty famous character. But it's very specific and getting into allowing functional blind PCs is a thorny issue.
Improvised duelist - fights with candlesticks and table legs...
Again, a weapon-centric archetype.
Speaking of which, here's a few more:
Masked swordsman (Zorro)
While really more of a character than a build, this is too cool not to include. Plus a certain Dread Pirate.
Archer variant (filmic Robin Hood)
Robin Hood is a ranger. Errol Flynn may have played him as a swashbuckler but that doesn't make him a swashbuckler any more than Kevin Costner playing him makes Robin Hood a wood golem.
But the "noble brigand" would work.Cloak and dagger (spy, stealthy)
This is really a rogue/swashbuckler multiclass.
Making a tally:
- free-hand
- two-weapon
- buckler
- pirate
- showman (flourishing fencer?)
- firearm fencer
- mob dueler
- masked man
- noble brigand
That's nine pretty distinct builds, and not including a couple "maybes". I stand corrected, there might be enough to justify a base class.
Any other suggestions?The Court Jester obviously.
Hah!
Why all the focus on archetype possibilities prior to the base class creation?
Seems to be too much focus on glitter.
Should this be the focus for the next RPG Superstar?
Rough draft of a Swashbuckler idea I had. Needs work, but I like the general direction.
1 - Improved Dervish Dance (In addition to the Scimitar, a Swashbuckler may use the dervish dance feat with the Rapier.), Flurry of Steel (1 additional attack with a Rapier. All attacks take -2.)
2 - Uncanny Dodge, +1 Damage on a charge.
3 - Acrobatic - Ignore 5 ft of difficult terrain.
4 - Evasion
5 - Defensive Blows +1
6 - Flurry of Steel (1 additional attack with a Rapier, albeit at an additional -5 to hit.), +2 Damage on a charge.
7 - Acrobatic - Ignore 10 ft of difficult terrain.
8 - Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 - Defensive Blows +2
10 - +1 to Crit Threat Range with weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse.(doesn't double with Keen or Imp. Crit, but does stack.), +3 Damage on a charge.
11 - Acrobatic - Ignore 15 ft of difficult terrain.
12 - Flurry of Steel (Another Additional attack at -10
13 - Defensive Blows +3
14 - Improved Evasion, +4 Damage on a charge.
15 - Acrobatic - Ignore 20 ft of difficult terrain.
16 - +2 to Crit Threat Range with weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse.(doesn't double with Keen or Imp. Crit, but does stack.)
17 - Defensive Blows +4
18 - +5 Damage on a charge.
19 - Acrobatic Mastery - Ignore All Difficult Terrain.
20 - Flurry Master (No longer take -2 to hit when using Flurry of Steel)
Defensive Blows - At 5th level, as a swift action, gain a +1 Dodge bonus. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels after 5th. In addition, whenever you use this ability and an enemy's attack misses you, gain a bonus to attack and damage equal to your dodge bonus against that foe until the end of your next turn.
Flurry of Steel is basically Two-Weapon Fighting, except for the one handed fighter. Sure you can use Two-weapon fighting with it, but you wouldn't benefit from Dervish Dance, and you'd be taking -4 to hit.
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Idea, why not a modified version of the gunslinger.
A grit like mechanic would fit a swashbuckler pretty well, plus good reflex and fort saves, full BAB and d10 HD, 4 skill points per level, and nimble all fit the what people are looking for well enough. Wouldn't an alternate class work well here, just change the gun out for a single handed finesse based weapon. Heck, use swashbuckler as the base class and use gunslinger as an archetype, gunslinger always seemed too specific to be a base class anyway.
Why all the focus on archetype possibilities prior to the base class creation?
Seems to be too much focus on glitter.
In my perception, two reasons.
1. All base classes have archetypes now, with the singular exception of the Antipaladin (who still has two third-party archetypes, though, last time I checked). It is, in turn, now an expectation of the system that any new base classes will also support archetypes, if not have them immediately upon or very shortly after their release (see: Magus).
and
2. If the concept of the proposed new base class itself is too narrow to support any archetypes, it likely won't get off the floor, and itself is probably likely to be consigned off into archetype-dom on its own (which, as someone linked the Rogue Swashbuckler archetype on page one, has been attempted in the past and is considered by most to be unsatisfactory). So part of the brainstorming of a potential new class is making sure that the concept covered in the class is either broad enough to support multiple sub-categorizations that could in turn be used to make archetypes, or that using the framework of the mechanics set up in the new base class can support more-tenuously connected styles and designs to make archetypes that way.
Simply put, expectations now say "base classes will have archetypes" and anything that can't support archetype ideas right off the bat probably will be either turned into an archetype itself (again, as has been tried, to most people in this thread's dissatisfaction) or at best an alternate class in the vein of Ninja/Samurai/Antipaladin.
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My suggestions, more or less off the top of my head.
Full BaB Martial Weapons, Light Armor, Good Reflex, 6 Skill
1st Weapon Finesse
2nd Combat Feat
3rd Sneak attack (1d6 Light one handed only)
4th Evasion
5th Combat Feat
6th Sneak attack (2d6 Light one handed only)
7th Uncanny Dodge
8th Combat Feat
9th Sneak attack (3d6 Light one handed only)
10th Fast Movement +10
11th Combat Feat
12th Sneak attack (4d6 Light one handed only)
13th Improved Evasion
14th Combat Feat
15th Sneak attack (5d6 Light one handed only)
16th Improved Uncanny Dodge
17th Combat Feat
18th Sneak attack (6d6 Light one handed only)
19th Reversal
20th Critical Mastery
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There are, I think, two more considerations (besides breadth of possible archetypes) that need to be addressed:
1. The class needs to do something that other classes can't do and support the game in the process. Currently, you can build a swashbuckling fighter, rogue, or magus (even ranger, probably) but the archetypes and class abilities need to be carefully arranged to give the character survivability, mobility, and enough BAB. A similar example is the Gunslinger. Any class can pick up a gun, given the feats, the cash for the weapon, and so forth. The Gunslinger can do things with a gun that no other class can. What sort of non-game-breaking things should a standard Swashbuckler be able to do? Do we take the Duelist and turn it up to 20?
2. I've been throwing out inspirational material to make a point: a swashbuckler is a basic character concept, as much as being a paladin or a wizard is. Fighting in a swashbuckling style is also something you should be able to take at 1st level. Most people who come to this thread to +1 have possibly been stymied in a character concept by this. I, personally, as a GM, want to be able to give a clear answer to a new player when she asks me - "how do I play this mini?"
I also think that the swashbuckler class should carry two different tactical approaches - wall of steel - pinning down or slowing an enemy; and fast and acrobatic - moving about the battlemat without perhaps sacrificing full attacks.
In film, swashbuckling tends to either be fast and loose, with a lot of improvisation and using the environment to create favourable circumstances, or practiced, methodical, and almost still - the character who parries, parries, parries, and then strikes a death-blow.
I think for the swashbuckler, the best 'chasis' is either the ranger, or the gunslinger. If you wanted to create an alternate class for the swashbucker, it should be for one of those classes, but I do think the best way to go about it is to build it from scratch.
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I think Sneak Attack is a rogue class ability. This class looks people in the eye(s), at least in its classic incarnation. I don't want this class to step on rogues. If one were cobbling together a swashbuckler from pre-existing abilities, it would make sense.
I get that people want a Swashbuckler with precision damage. As a possible alternative, the equivalent damage can also be done with a high BAB and a large Crit range, too...
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I think for the swashbuckler, the best 'chasis' is either the ranger, or the gunslinger. If you wanted to create an alternate class for the swashbucker, it should be for one of those classes, but I do think the best way to go about it is to build it from scratch.
Yeah, my homebrew version is essentially an Alternate Gunslinger. But the swashbuckler's élan and repertoire of tricks might not work like Grit or Ki. Is there a better approach, that's more Combat Manuever linked?
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I think Sneak Attack is a rogue class ability. This class looks people in the eye(s), at least in its classic incarnation. I don't want this class to step on rogues. If one were cobbling together a swashbuckler from pre-existing abilities, it would make sense.
I get that people want a Swashbuckler with precision damage. As a possible alternative, the equivalent damage can also be done with a high BAB and a large Crit range, too...
The problem with Crit Range is that we can already get to 15, so how far are you going to expand it?
I don't mind it not being sneak attack and being a flat bonus for a weapon type fought in a particular style. Swap out the "Sneak attack" for "Precision" and make it a flat say, +2 to damage when fighting one handed with a chosen weapon.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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Here's what I've been thinking in regards to a swashbuckler. Your mileage may vary on this, and just in case I gave permission to Paizo to file off the serial numbers here and use this however they prefer. Open contribution to ideas is A-Ok in my book.
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Swashbuckler
Alignment: Any
HD d10
Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills
The swashbuckler's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nobility), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The swashbuckler is proficient with all simple weapons and all one-handed or light martial weapons and with light armor (but not shields).
Battle Stance (Ex): At 1st level a swashbuckler learns a battle stance. A swashbuckler knows one battle stance at 1st level and gains one additional battle stance at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter. A swashbuckler may only be in one battle stance at a time and must end the effects of one battle stance before entering another. A swashbuckler enters a battle stance by declaring a single creature as the target of his battle stance as swift action and may remain in a battle stance indefinitely. Exiting a stance is a free action. In order to switch targets of a battle stance the swashbuckler must exit and re-enter his battle stance. A swashbuckler may only enter a battle stance while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon and with nothing held in his off-hand.
Duelist's Stance: While in duelist's stance the swashbuckler may take a penalty to his attack bonus, up to a maximum equal to his total base attack bonus, and apply that amount as a deflection bonus to his AC against his selected target. At 5th level the bonus from duelist's stance increases to a +2 deflection bonus to AC for every -1 penalty assigned to his attack rolls. At 10th level the bonus increases to a +3 deflection bonus to AC for every -1 penalty to attack taken. The penalty to attack rolls applies to all of the swashbuckler's attacks made while in duelist's stance, but the deflection bonus to AC applies only to the target of duelist's stance. At 15th level the penalty to attack rolls made during duelist's stance do not apply to attacks of opportunity against the target of duelist' stance.
Harrier's Stance: A swashbuckler in harrier's stance forsakes his personal defenses for risky maneuvers and mobility with potentially devastating payoff. While in combat, the swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on melee attack rolls against his target for every 5 feet of movement made in the round, up to a maximum of the swashbuckler's base attack bonus. The swashbuckler also suffers a penalty to AC against all opponents equal to the bonus received on melee attack rolls from this stance. If a swashbuckler makes a successful melee attack in harrier's stance he rolls twice the number of dice for the weapon (a longsword, for example, would deal 2d8 points of damage instead of 1d8.) No additional sources of damage are multiplied by this attack. At 5th level the swashbuckler gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls for every 5 feet of movement made (though he is still limited to a bonus no higher than his total base attack bonus) and rolls three times the number of dice for his weapon on a successful hit. At 10th level the swashbuckler gains a +3 bonus to attack rolls for every 5 feet of movement made in the round (though he is still limited to a bonus no higher than his total base attack bonus) and rolls four times the number of dice for his weapon on a successful hit. At 10th level the swashbuckler gains a +4 bonus to attack rolls for every 5 feet of movement made in the round (though he is still limited to a bonus no higher than his total base attack bonus) and rolls five times the number of dice for his weapon on a successful hit.
Flanking Stance: By capitalizing on terrain and other landscape features such as furniture or architecture, a swashbuckler in flanking stance may make a special combat maneuver check against the target of his stance as a free action at the start of his turn. If successful the swashbuckler is considered to be flanking his target. However, while in flanking stance a swashbuckler may not flank any other opponent, nor can he help his allies flank another enemy. The swashbuckler's bonus to attack rolls from flanking increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. Creatures normally immune to flanking are immune to this ability.
Warden's Stance: The swashbuckler must target an ally to enter warden's stance. While in warden's stance The swashbuckler may elect to take a -1 penalty to all attack rolls, up to a maximum of his total base attack bonus, and apply that number as a deflection bonus to his target ally's AC as long as they remain within the swashbuckler's reach. The target of warden's stance loses this bonus to AC immediately if they are no longer within the swashbuckler's reach, but regain it as soon as they return without the swashbuckler needing to re-enter the stance.
Peerless Stance: While in peerless stance the swashbuckler may take a penalty on his attack rolls up to a maximum equal to his base attack bonus and apply it as a bonus to his combat maneuver defense against combat maneuvers performed by the target of his stance. The bonus to CMD granted per point of attack bonus lost increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
United Stance: The swashbuckler must target an ally to enter united stance. While in united stance the swashbuckler may make an attack of opportunity against any opponent within reach that his target of united stance successfully hits with a melee attack. The swashbuckler may only make one such attack of opportunity per round, regardless of how many times his ally hits an enemy in combat. At 10th level the swashbuckler may make two attacks of opportunity in a round, provided his ally makes two successful hits against a creature within the swashbuckler's reach. The attack of opportunity granted by united stance must be made with a light or one-handed melee weapon.
Agility: At 2nd level a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws when wearing light or no armor. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Weapon Training: Starting at 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains greater proficiency with light and one-handed melee weapons. Whenever he attacks with a light or one-handed melee weapon, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th and 19th), the bonus granted increases by +1.
A swashbuckler also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with light or one-handed weapons. This bonus also applies to the swashbuckler's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against light or one-handed weapons.
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Now, please consider that I wrote all of this in one shot this morning while having my coffee. So, there's likely more rough edges and burrs to smooth over than I'd like to try and guess. It also isn't yet enough to flesh out an entire class, but this is the direction I would like to see a Swashbuckler go in.
I think for the swashbuckler, the best 'chasis' is either the ranger, or the gunslinger. If you wanted to create an alternate class for the swashbucker, it should be for one of those classes, but I do think the best way to go about it is to build it from scratch.Yeah, my homebrew version is essentially an Alternate Gunslinger. But the swashbuckler's élan and repertoire of tricks might not work like Grit or Ki. Is there a better approach, that's more Combat Manuever linked?
I think linking a class to combat maneuvers is a poor idea, mostly because of how inappropriately they scale at higher levels. You dont want the class to simply stop working at 12th level. I would stick with per day abilities, either similar to ki/grit or maybe even something like a bard's performance.
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I think linking a class to combat maneuvers is a poor idea, mostly because of how inappropriately they scale at higher levels. You dont want the class to simply stop working at 12th level. I would stick with per day abilities, either similar to ki/grit or maybe even something like a bard's performance.I think for the swashbuckler, the best 'chasis' is either the ranger, or the gunslinger. If you wanted to create an alternate class for the swashbucker, it should be for one of those classes, but I do think the best way to go about it is to build it from scratch.Yeah, my homebrew version is essentially an Alternate Gunslinger. But the swashbuckler's élan and repertoire of tricks might not work like Grit or Ki. Is there a better approach, that's more Combat Manuever linked?
The Bard's performance might be better, as running out of Grit or Ki tends to snap those other classes back to reload/fire and flurry with not much else to do. The classic swashbuckler archetype is cocky (perhaps too cocky) because of their large bag of tricks and ability to swap fighting styles, not a character who drops a few interesting moves and stabs for the rest of the encounter.
I must say I like where this thread is going. I definately thik there is a place for a full 20th level Swashbuckler class, based on much of what has beend discussed here. I shall continue to monitor this thread and add in my 2 cp when inspired to do so. Keep going everyone.
I do like the idea of bardic performance as an alternate mechanic to perform combat maneuvers and special actions. We'll see how this develops.
I would make it a monk alternate class.
Changes:
No alignment restrictions
No increased unarmed damage
Flurry of Blows with all simple and one-handed weapons (or a selection thereof) + probably katana/bastard sword
No Wis to AC Bonus
Proficient with martial weapons and light armor, can use flurry and AC Bonus in light armor
new selection of Bonus feats
new selection of class skills (but quite similar), maybe 6 skill points
No fast movement
only good will and Reflex saves
No purity of body, diamond Body, wholeness of Body, Diamond Soul, tongues of the sun and moon (and so forth).
Some abilities of the Human Wanderer are quite nice, e. g. something like Free Step for Diamond Soul
Hmmm...
I'm pretty sure the monk's lack of full BAB is a cutting point for most people in using it to pull off a Swashbuckler. I know it is for me.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Robert, I like your take and would definitely like to explore the idea more. I would suggest going for a Dodge instead of Deflection bonus in the Duelist's Stance, since Dodge bonuses stack and Deflection do not. And most characters are going to get a Ring of Protection very early on.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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Robert, I like your take and would definitely like to explore the idea more. I would suggest going for a Dodge instead of Deflection bonus in the Duelist's Stance, since Dodge bonuses stack and Deflection do not. And most characters are going to get a Ring of Protection very early on.
My initial thought for Duelist's Stance was dodge as well, but I realized that if I put it as Deflection it allows the swashbuckler to explore other defensive options. Instead of being required to have a ring of protection, they could utilize some of the myriad other interesting rings. I feel that the scaling bonus from Duelist's Stance also more than makes up for the 5 points that could otherwise be gained from a ring/other deflection source. Setting it as a deflection bonus also hinders a dangerously powerful stacking of Smite Evil/Duelist's Stance since both would provide a deflection bonus to AC and therefore not blend well.
Orthos; you misunderstand my questioning the design approach of creating a new base class by what archetypes you can create concurrently with it.
IMHO it would be better to create the base class first and foremost, make it work, make it useful, make it cool, make it playable, make it swashbuckle, then worry about archetypes.
Otherwise you risk diluting the base class by parseing off class abilities to make cool archetypes, abilities that should remain with the base class.
Looks like too much "Ooh, Ooh! This would be cool too!" fluff and not enough yummy meat.
I like J.J.'s idea for the base, maybe start with the Duelist as a base, not fighter, not rogue, not ranger or any other base class.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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I also agree that the core of the class should be more important than the archetypes. I believe the most critical aspect of good class design is A) Ensuring that the class fills a niche that has been underdeveloped or poorly represented, B) is fun to play, and C) works well with other classes as a part of a team dynamic.
To those criteria alone, I feel swashbuckler is an obvious spot to develop.
I'm pretty sure the monk's lack of full BAB is a cutting point for most people in using it to pull off a Swashbuckler. I know it is for me.
Something I guess I do not understand. Flurry = Full BAB Two Weapon Fighting without the need for two weapons = stronger than any other two weapon fighter in the game except for Standard attacks. Seems managable enough to me.
And my take would not be MAD, as Wis is not needed.
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Okay, here's my go:
Role: Swashbucklers are the gentlemen rogues of the fighting world. They excel at witty repartee, flashing blades and daring deeds. They tend to be based in cities, but can survive in rural areas as well.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The swashbuckler's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis) and Stealth (Dex)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the swashbuckler.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as the whip, and light armor and bucklers.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the swashbuckler gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “swashbuckler bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a swashbuckler can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the swashbuckler loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A swashbuckler can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Force of Personality (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and unencumbered, the swashbuckler adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four swashbuckler levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the swashbuckler is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears medium or heavy armor, when he carries a shield (other than a buckler), or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Light Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a swashbuckler learns to be more maneuverable while wearing light armor. Whenever he is wearing light armor, he increases the armor bonus by 1 and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum +4 increase of the armor bonus and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a swashbuckler can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a swashbuckler becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a swashbuckler reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A swashbuckler also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the swashbuckler's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.
Finessable: dagger, elven curve blade, kukri, rapier, sickle, spiked chain, starknife, short sword and whip
Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.
Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, trident and quarterstaff.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.
Evasion (Ex): At 7th level or higher, a swashbuckler can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a swashbuckler makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a swashbuckler is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a swashbuckler's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a swashbuckler gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing light armor or using a buckler.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a swashbuckler chooses one weapon, such as the rapier, whip, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
NEW FEAT:
Improved Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You have mastered the art of using your quickness to inflict damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus in a finessable weapon
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category and in which you have weapon focus, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
In addition, I gave them Good Reflex Saves and Poor Fort and Will Saves.
Comments?
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Contributor
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I'm pretty sure the monk's lack of full BAB is a cutting point for most people in using it to pull off a Swashbuckler. I know it is for me.Something I guess I do not understand. Flurry = Full BAB Two Weapon Fighting without the need for two weapons = stronger than any other two weapon fighter in the game except for Standard attacks. Seems managable enough to me.
And my take would not be MAD, as Wis is not needed.
Fast, repetitive flurries are an aspect of swashbuckling, but don't represent how it works overall. Here's an interesting summary. A trained combat fencer parries and keeps control of the combat, then strikes to do maximum damage when it's safe.
Control being the key. A character class that represents this idea denies attacks to the opponent (high AC) and carefully and quickly takes advantage of mistakes and gaps in the opponent's defences (perhaps even using touch AC).|
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Okay, here's my go:
** spoiler omitted **...
It's interesting to see the play here and in other posts between the cinematic swashbuckler (really, the swashbuckler as someone who literally bangs their shield or otherwise intimidates opponents using Cha) and the precise, cold-blooded (Int or Wis-based) approach of the historical duelist. The Swashbuckler/Duelist (whatever we call it) may have two basic personalities that have to be supported.
Of course, in cinematic terms, we can look at a lot of the swordfights as attempts to mislead. The brazen, reckless approach is often an attempt to look vulnerable when you are not (the Wesley approach: "I am not really left-handed").
How about a minor ability to use Acrobatics checks to overcome difficult terrain? (Minor because how often does difficult terrain come up anyway, plus there are level 1 spells like Feather Step to totally ignore it anyway).
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Okay, here's my go:
** spoiler omitted **...
I like some of the options on this, giving then light armor training and evasion all make good sense. I'm not a fan of making them yet another "extra" stat to AC class, because it feels like the easiest answer but not the most elegant, as it shoehorns swashbucklers into being high charisma. While some swashbucklers are very charismatic, it's not an across-the-board phenomenon. Also, making them DEX/CHA dependant makes them poor choices to advance into the Duelist PrC (which swashbucklers should be the best at) at higher levels as that will add a necessity for high Int into the mix too.
My other concern lies with "Improved Weapon Finesse." For a class to require a feat to exist seems like a mistake in design theory. While this could be rolled into a feature of the class, I'm also not a fan of opening up Dex to damage so broadly. I know it exists in some forms, but they are very niche and I feel it should remain that way.
Giving new options for a duelist to deal additional damage is more exciting and interesting than rehashing or reskinning old ones, I feel.
As for saves, I think as a d10 HD melee-oriented hybrid class they should have good Fort and Reflex saves. I believe Ranger is the same for saves, and that feels appropriate.
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How about a minor ability to use Acrobatics checks to overcome difficult terrain? (Minor because how often does difficult terrain come up anyway, plus there are level 1 spells like Feather Step to totally ignore it anyway).
I think this would be essential, yes. Perhaps only on a charge attack initially, then an upgraded version that allows them to perform Acrobatics checks without regard to the terrain as well. Plenty of staircase fights in traditional swashbuckling media, and stairs are difficult terrain!
I'm pretty sure the monk's lack of full BAB is a cutting point for most people in using it to pull off a Swashbuckler. I know it is for me.Something I guess I do not understand. Flurry = Full BAB Two Weapon Fighting without the need for two weapons = stronger than any other two weapon fighter in the game except for Standard attacks. Seems managable enough to me.
And my take would not be MAD, as Wis is not needed.
It would face one of the same problems the monk has right now - a class that at face value looks like it's based around being mobile and moving a lot, but requires standing still and full-attacking to get the benefit of its main combat ability.
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How about this:
Staircase Dancer (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler becomes nimble enough to ignore the first five feet of difficult terrain when he moves. At 6th level and every four levels after, the swashbuckler adds a further five feet to the distance of difficult terrain he can ignore, up to twenty-five feet at 18th level.
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Hmm, perhaps changing Force of Personality to Cunning and have Intelligence add to armor instead? That makes a swashbuckler of high enough level to prestige into Duelist a very dangerous foe indeed.
There's a potential of that working, but it would require keeping the same limitations on Int to AC that Duelist and the magus archetype Kensei both have; level. So a 9th level duelist can only have a +9 int bonus (if they even got that high) to AC. If Duelist/Swashbuckler were to work well, swashbuckler would also need to have that same limitation, but then somehow duelist's AC wording would need to reference that it stacks, retroactively with swashbuckler... and we find ourselves in a difficult position again.
The less reliance is thrust on additional stats, especially for a melee class, the better. Allow them to focus on the stats that are already important, Strength, Dex and Con.
At least I wrote I would not give Fast Movement to the Swashbuckler.
As the Monk has such a lot of fancy little abilities that could be swapped out, the swashbuckler could get Weapon Training, similar to the Sohei.
On the other hand, I see Jeff Erwin's point, that from a fluff perspective it would not fit.
I guess my rapier-wielding, crane-styling monk just does not fit your concepts.
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The thing is, I don't think you must necessarily have a high Dex to be a swashbuckler. I think the new feat allows that, but we have to allow for characters like Little John, who was most definitely not the most dexterous character.
And I think the feat is great for characters other than swashbucklers. Like rogues or monks or anyone, really.
I would make it a monk alternate class.
Changes:
No alignment restrictions
No increased unarmed damage
Flurry of Blows with all simple and one-handed weapons (or a selection thereof) + probably katana/bastard sword
No Wis to AC Bonus
Proficient with martial weapons and light armor, can use flurry and AC Bonus in light armor
new selection of Bonus feats
new selection of class skills (but quite similar), maybe 6 skill points
No fast movement
only good will and Reflex savesNo purity of body, diamond Body, wholeness of Body, Diamond Soul, tongues of the sun and moon (and so forth).
Some abilities of the Human Wanderer are quite nice, e. g. something like Free Step for Diamond Soul
Hmmm...
My original instinct was to follow the monk more than the gunslinger, but they're both pretty good starting points.
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Hmm, perhaps changing Force of Personality to Cunning and have Intelligence add to armor instead? That makes a swashbuckler of high enough level to prestige into Duelist a very dangerous foe indeed.There's a potential of that working, but it would require keeping the same limitations on Int to AC that Duelist and the magus archetype Kensei both have; level. So a 9th level duelist can only have a +9 int bonus (if they even got that high) to AC. If Duelist/Swashbuckler were to work well, swashbuckler would also need to have that same limitation, but then somehow duelist's AC wording would need to reference that it stacks, retroactively with swashbuckler... and we find ourselves in a difficult position again.
The less reliance is thrust on additional stats, especially for a melee class, the better. Allow them to focus on the stats that are already important, Strength, Dex and Con.
See, with a swashbuckler, Con becomes less important as Dex becomes more imporant. You don't want to be able to take the hit, you want to be able to avoid being hit in the first place.
I think limiting the INT bonus to the Max Dex of the armor is do-able. An unarmored swashbuckler who can get to a +9 Int bonus should be rewarded for that, I think.
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I'm not sure Little John would be considered a swashbuckler per-se, but that's a very nebulous area to get into and somewhat off-topic if I diverged there.
Dexterity, I feel, is of paramount importance to a swashbuckler. Finessing a weapons, their focus on agility, and their very nature as graceful unarmored swordsmen speaks more of dexterity than any of Cary Elwes charming lines contributed to his defense. If you look at the most archetypal swashbucklers (all mentioned upthread) all of them have a finesse and flourish about them that simply relies on the concept of a nimble combatant.
See, with a swashbuckler, Con becomes less important as Dex becomes more imporant. You don't want to be able to take the hit, you want to be able to avoid being hit in the first place.I think limiting the INT bonus to the Max Dex of the armor is do-able. An unarmored swashbuckler who can get to a +9 Int bonus should be rewarded for that, I think.
If give a parry ability like that of a deulist PrC, would handle the defense aspect. A little modifcation so you can parry a number of times = to your Dex modifier, and allow you to make more than one parry a turn?
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Modified Draft Swashbuckler:
Role: Swashbucklers are the gentlemen rogues of the fighting world. They excel at witty repartee, flashing blades and daring deeds. They tend to be based in cities, but can survive in rural areas as well.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The swashbuckler's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis) and Stealth (Dex)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Table: Swashbuckler
Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special AC Bonus
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus feat, cunning +0
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus feat, staircase dancer +0
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Light armor training 1 +0
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat +1
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Weapon training 1 +1
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Bonus feat, staircase dancer +1
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Light armor training 2, evasion +1
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat +2
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Weapon training 2, +2
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Bonus feat, staircase dancer +2
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Light armor training 3 +2
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat, improved evasion +3
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Weapon training 3 +3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Bonus feat, staircase dancer +3
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Light armor training 4 +3
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat +4
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Weapon training 4 +4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Bonus feat, staircase dancer +4
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Light armor mastery +4
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat, weapon mastery +5
Class Features
The following are class features of the swashbuckler.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and light armor and bucklers.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the swashbuckler gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “swashbuckler bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a swashbuckler can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the swashbuckler loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A swashbuckler can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Cunning (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and unencumbered, the swashbuckler adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four swashbuckler levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. A swashbuckler in light armor may only add his Intelligence bonus up to the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the swashbuckler is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears medium or heavy armor, when he carries a shield (other than a buckler), or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Staircase Dancer (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler becomes nimble enough to ignore the first five feet of difficult terrain when he moves. At 6th level and every four levels after, the swashbuckler adds a further five feet to the distance of difficult terrain he can ignore, up to twenty-five feet at 18th level.
Light Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a swashbuckler learns to be more maneuverable while wearing light armor. Whenever he is wearing light armor, he increases the armor bonus by 1 and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum +4 increase of the armor bonus and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a swashbuckler can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a swashbuckler becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group.
In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a swashbuckler reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A swashbuckler also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the swashbuckler's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.
Finessable: dagger, elven curve blade, kukri, rapier, sickle, spiked chain, starknife, short sword and whip
Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.
Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, trident and quarterstaff.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.
Evasion (Ex): At 7th level or higher, a swashbuckler can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a swashbuckler makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a swashbuckler is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 12th level, a swashbuckler's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Light Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a swashbuckler gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing light armor or using a buckler.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a swashbuckler chooses one weapon, such as the rapier, whip, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
NEW FEAT:
Improved Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You have mastered the art of using your quickness to inflict damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus in a finessable weapon
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category and in which you have weapon focus, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
I'd like to see a swashbuckler focused on Dex, Int and Cha... But I fear it would bring him into Monk levels of MADness, and that's a bit much, IMO.
OTOH, Maybe it focusing on Int and Cha, having Dex/Con as secondary stats could work.
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That looks like a better draft, james, but I feel like giving the swashbuckler the fighter's allotment of bonus feats takes too much away from the fighter without pulling back enough difference to make your draft stand on its own as a base class rather than an archetype (or two).
I'd like to see the swashbuckler not simply have a pile-on of bonus feats, but rather have unique abilities all its own that take up those spaces, or perhaps a slower bonus feat progression with a handful of supplemental abilities.