Eldritch Heritage (Orc) vs. Racial Heritage (half-orc)

[Renlar]

I'm running into a logic issue concerning Orcs and Half-orcs. I want to create a human Blood God Disciple summoner, but the Blood God Disciple is only available to half-orcs.

Initially I was going to use Racial Heritage(Half-orc) to cover the prerequisite, however Eldritch Heritage(Orc) sounds better on the surface and makes sense to me logically as it would give the Orc subtype to a human. Since both Eldritch Heritage and Racial Heritage have to deal with "some blood from a long time ago," a drop of orc blood vs. a drop of half-orc blood seem about the same to me.

Are there any rules that cover this sort of thing? Or am I forced Racial Heritage regardless?

TL;DR: Does a human that gains the "Orc" subtype count as a Half-orc?

[Renlar]

This is the closest thing that I can think of to prove my point.

In the section for Half-orcs, they are described in the following way:
"Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes."

If a half-orc is both a human and an orc, is someone who is both a human and an orc then a half-orc?

I feel like this is a "All toads are frogs but not all frogs are toads..." situation.

[ikarinokami]

Renlar wrote:

This is the closest thing that I can think of to prove my point.

In the section for Half-orcs, they are described in the following way:
"Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes."

If a half-orc is both a human and an orc, is someone who is both a human and an orc then a half-orc?

I feel like this is a "All toads are frogs but not all frogs are toads..." situation.

The rules regarding this make no sense currently as in zeo sense, contridictory, impossible to resolve. they faq two different answers and, just left it like it is, so there is zero direction for anyone for what was overruled, or amended in the race guide..

[Renlar]

I read into Eldritch Heritage, it doesn't matter at this point.

I would only get one of the first level powers, not any of the passives (gaining Orc subtype as one of them)

[Kazaan]

Here we go again *rolls eyes*

Alright... first off, is the ARG:

ARG wrote:

Humanoid (0 RP)

Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

Source

The bolded sentence indicates that it's your subtype that qualifies you for prerequisites. This is so you can use the ARG to build a custom race and still have that race qualify for race-based prerequisites (ie. you make a race called Orks that has the Humanoid(Orc) type and can take Orc feats and such). Therefore, when something lists "Prerequisite: Half-Orc", that's a "plain-English" shorthand for saying Prerequisite: "Humanoid(Orc, Human)". By the same token, the "Orc Blood" ability that Half-Orcs are listed as having doesn't even show up in the ARG; it's also a shorthand for saying they have Humanoid(Orc, Human). Therefore, so long as you have the Humanoid(Orc, Human) Type(subtype), you qualify as Human, Orc, and Half-Orc for any feats, traits, archetypes, etc. You also suffer as both in the case of Ranger favored enemy, Bane effects, and any other detrimental effects that affect either humans or orcs.

Now, comes the naysayers. There's a FAQ stating that Racial Heritage(Orc) does qualify you for racial archetypes. There's another FAQ (issued later) that states Half-Orcs and Half-Elves don't qualify for racial archetypes of the parent races. The two are contradictory and mutually exclusive since "Half-blood" abilities and Racial Heritage are functionally worded the same; the only difference is that Heritage goes on with a non-exhaustive list of examples of what you qualify for. So some won't agree with the idea that a Half-Elf, for example, qualifies for Human, Elf, and Half-Elf prereqs. Others may argue that, despite functionally giving you both subtypes, Racial Heritage doesn't let you benefit from the gestalt of the two and, for example, Racial Heritage(Orc) would only qualify you for either Human or Orc but not Half-Orc prereqs. I say that view is being needlessly obtuse since counting as two different targets for detrimental effects off-sets the benefit you might get of qualifying for several racially limited benefits.

[SorasTG]

Half-orc is a Race of Type: Humanoid with both the (human) and (orc) subtypes. Type and subtype are not the same thing as race. Otherwise Aasimars, Tieflings, etc would be the same race and could take all the same abilities etc. As they are both Type: Outsider subtype:(native).

Racial Heritage could get you into in Blood God Disciple but neither Eldritch Heritage nor Orc Bloodline would. Still could be a good idea to pick up Eldritch Heritage later on when you can get the Improved version.

[Kazaan]

ARG wrote:

Outsider (native) (3 RP)

A native outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the matter) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. When making a native outsider race, it is sometimes important to pick a single Outer Plane that race is tied to. For example, tieflings are tied to Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell. Such ties can be important for qualifying for other racial abilities, but it's not required that a native outsider be tied to another plane. A native outsider race has the followings features.

The plane you're tied to plays the same role as the racial subtype does for humanoids. So a Tiefling wouldn't qualify for Aasimar feats, but a Half-Celestial would qualify for Aasimar feats because they're both Outsider(native) with ties to the 'good' outer planes.

[SorasTG]

Depending on the requirements I might disagree with that line of thought. A determination that something is "effectively the same" is a determination not a statement by the RAW that it IS the same.

For one you're citing the race building rules both times. I'd argue thats referring to the requirements on the other race building traits in that book. Various abilities like energy resistances carry type pre-reqs for creating a race. I'm not sure we can take anything from those guidelines as going farther.

And without a source on the specifics of the FAQs I would hazard the contradiction is not actually anything of the sort. Racial Heritage explicitly lets you count as a member of another humanoid race but doesn't say type anywhere. If that's all they were the feat would be simpler "Gain X subtype" and go. Yet there not listing it and half-orcs/elves listing such things separate from their own dual subtypes I feel is a deliberate design choice. To separate type and race.

Now that all said if you were say wanting to be a Half-Celestial Humanoid wanting an Aasimar feat... I'd say reasonable grounds to ask a GM (since hey they let you take a template) to allow it and even sensible and recommended as the sort of flexibility you should have with pre-reqs like that. But not automatically equivalent in all cases merely from sharing types. A Half-Celestial Horse not so much.

[Kazaan]

So basically, what you're saying is that if I made a race called Orks which had the Humanoid(Orc) type, they couldn't qualify for feats, traits, or archetypes which had Orc as a prerequisite because that's referring specifically to the core race named Orcs and not a custom-built race of Humanoid(orcs) with a different name?

[Derek Vande Brake]

Kazaan wrote:

So basically, what you're saying is that if I made a race called Orks which had the Humanoid(Orc) type, they couldn't qualify for feats, traits, or archetypes which had Orc as a prerequisite because that's referring specifically to the core race named Orcs and not a custom-built race of Humanoid(orcs) with a different name?

Pretty much, but if you are creating custom races, nothing says you can't also make custom feats - an Ork line to match all the normal Orc ones.

[Kazaan]

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

So basically, what you're saying is that if I made a race called Orks which had the Humanoid(Orc) type, they couldn't qualify for feats, traits, or archetypes which had Orc as a prerequisite because that's referring specifically to the core race named Orcs and not a custom-built race of Humanoid(orcs) with a different name?

Pretty much, but if you are creating custom races, nothing says you can't also make custom feats - an Ork line to match all the normal Orc ones.

Well, if that's what's being said, it's a good thing that it's blatantly incorrect, now isn't it?