Built a dungeon around a library. It's got twenty or so bookshelves. The bookshelves are twenty feet long. I put them on the border between spaces, assuming they're about three or so feet thick, sort of straddling between five foot spaces. Leaves a nice non-difficult aisle for five foot squares. Twenty feet long, between 8-10 feet high, and loaded with books and scrolls. This is an old emperor's hideout, so let's say the wood is solid oak or something thereabout (but it's been sitting around for 200 years).
What do you think the DC ought to be to knock one over?
It would definitely be a strength check, not a skill check of any sort. I would say DC 15 is appropriate. Something outside of combat that a person with a 20 strength could pull off easily (take 10+ 5 strength modifier). During combat you can't take 10, so it's still a 50% chance of success with a +5 strength modifier. I would also allow an attempt to break the bookshelf. It would probably cause difficult terrain though since it's such a large item.
That really depends on how huge the bookshelves are. Remember, if you have ever had to move your domicile, you know that books are incredibly heavy when bunched up. How wide are the bookshelves?
I would not think a 20 Strength could pull it off. We are talking in the realm of 30 or more.
This is slightly off-topic, but do any of your players carry flint & steel? That could affect the DC and many other things besides . . .
That really depends on how huge the bookshelves are. Remember, if you have ever had to move your domicile, you know that books are incredibly heavy when bunched up. How wide are the bookshelves?
I would not think a 20 Strength could pull it off. We are talking in the realm of 30 or more.
On the map, I have their width taking up about a quarter of a square. Taking into account that no spatial relationships are really exact on a map, they're a little more than two feet wide, I'd say. 30 seems a little high, since it's not lifting or really pushing that's required, it's tipping them over. I'll probably put it at about 25, with a +3 momentum bonus on a charge.
Just remember, if they can move them there's a decent chance they will loot them! Hope there are books there of actual value.
The DC to knock one over would really depend more on how they are secured to the ground than the weight of the shelf. A heavy shelf that is not secured to the ground is a dangerous thing as it might not take much to push it a little and let the weight and gravity do the rest.
I think a strength of 20 or less could give a good enough shove to get an unsecured shelf to topple over.
If it is secured by wood, use one of the wooden break DC's like 13, 18, or 23 for simple, good, or strong. If it is secured by metal, such as bolts and "L" brackets, then use a 26 or 28 such as with a chain or manacles.
Do not forget that if they are that tall and that close, then a domino effect may occur and that could be nasty if a caster or rogue happened to be hiding behind the stacks.
It would, however, make for a great visual and I might have to use that sometime.
Most library bookshelves are dual sided, so they tend to be wider, at least 2-3ft. Being made of oak, and heavy, you are going to have a serious danger if they fall.
According to the rules for encumbrance et all, a character with 20 strength has a heavy load of 400 lbs. The rules for pushing and dragging say up to 4 times their heavy load rating, which would be 2000 lbs. But pushing and dragging is actually move the item from it's position, i.e. moving it from one 5ft square to another 5 ft square, not tip it over. Since you're only trying to tip it over I would be inclined to give another at least another 4x multiplier for what they could tip over, so that would be 8000 lb. If any of characters are large, through enlarge person or whatever means, then double these values, so 16,000 lbs. I have a hard time imagining that a book shelf, even one 20ft long filled with book and made of hard heavy wood weighs more than 16,000 lbs. Beyond that, since its such a large item I would say that if two creatures with a strength score of 20 or above try to tip it over they would still succeed even if they're only medium size category.
As others have so kindly pointed out, this would probably pose a dangerous situation involving some sort of domino effect and probably trap and pin anyone caught in between shelves.
that domino effect, you can see it in "The Mummy", the one with Brendan Fraser.
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The taller the shelf, the easier it is to tip.
The more it is loaded toward the top, the easier it is to tip.
The narrower the base, the easier it is to tip.
If the base is unsecured or even a bit loose, it may be possible to topple even a very large and sturdy shelf by rocking it back and forth, creating a harmonic effect similar to the way wind destroyed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
Most library bookshelves are dual sided, so they tend to be wider, at least 2-3ft. Being made of oak, and heavy, you are going to have a serious danger if they fall.
Good point! What do you think should be the damage from one falling on a PC?
First of all there should be a Reflex save to avoid the worst of the damage. 12 sounds appropriate; the first shelf will take a moment to start falling and the subsequent ones will have the warning of the prior shelves.
The party will be 4th level when they hit this encounter; I think 4d6 bludgeoning damage and the pinned condition (35 Strength or 20 Escape Artist to get out of it). Reflex for half and to avoid the pinned condition, but if character is not adjacent to an open (non-shelf) square at time of impact, character will be knocked prone.
As cool as it would be for the PC's to knock over a shelf to flush out the Mites they'll be up against, I don't think any of them will try. Nobody in the party has a strength score over 12 at the moment, I'm pretty sure (though the cleric has two skeleton companions and access to Summon Monster). It will, however, be fun to try and line the PC's up and topple some dominoes with the Spriggan they'll be up against.
EDIT: Actually there is a summoner with a 4-legged beastie and Enlarge Person. It's quite likely the beastie will try and charge a bookshelf before the night is through.
The taller the shelf, the easier it is to tip.
The more it is loaded toward the top, the easier it is to tip.
The narrower the base, the easier it is to tip.If the base is unsecured or even a bit loose, it may be possible to topple even a very large and sturdy shelf by rocking it back and forth, creating a harmonic effect similar to the way wind destroyed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
And the closer to the top, the easier to topple. I'll give a +5 circumstantial if a character manages to push/slam the top half of a shelf, rather than the base.
Well, if the books stay mostly on the shelves before impact, that would magnify the damage, which was induced by hundreds of pounds of weight.
I'd put it in Fireball country, 5-10d6. No reflex save for half, it's either all or nothing reflex save. That's some serious bleep!
And the closer to the top, the easier to topple. I'll give a +5 circumstantial if a character manages to push/slam the top half of a shelf, rather than the base.The taller the shelf, the easier it is to tip.
The more it is loaded toward the top, the easier it is to tip.
The narrower the base, the easier it is to tip.If the base is unsecured or even a bit loose, it may be possible to topple even a very large and sturdy shelf by rocking it back and forth, creating a harmonic effect similar to the way wind destroyed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
That makes me want to take a rogue option through an acrobatics check in order to climb my way up to rather close bookshelves by proping myself between them so that I could just kick one shelf over at the top. Would real bookshelves be that close? Obviously not...but fantasy worlds are not well known for their safety codes.
Neither are medieval times.
That makes me want to take a rogue option through an acrobatics check in order to climb my way up to rather close bookshelves by proping myself between them so that I could just kick one shelf over at the top. Would real bookshelves be that close? Obviously not...but fantasy worlds are not well known for their safety codes.And the closer to the top, the easier to topple. I'll give a +5 circumstantial if a character manages to push/slam the top half of a shelf, rather than the base.The taller the shelf, the easier it is to tip.
The more it is loaded toward the top, the easier it is to tip.
The narrower the base, the easier it is to tip.If the base is unsecured or even a bit loose, it may be possible to topple even a very large and sturdy shelf by rocking it back and forth, creating a harmonic effect similar to the way wind destroyed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
I was thinking more of an enlarged creature taking a running jump, or somehow throwing something really heavy at the top. Like a big hammer.
Well, if the books stay mostly on the shelves before impact, that would magnify the damage, which was induced by hundreds of pounds of weight.
I'd put it in Fireball country, 5-10d6. No reflex save for half, it's either all or nothing reflex save. That's some serious bleep!
Seems way overpowered for pushing over a bookshelf. I'm thinking that the base is a bit bigger than the top, making for a little room at the base that a swift adventurer could jump for in a pinch.
... course, that'd make it tougher to knock over.